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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

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* Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issuepyotr filipivich
`* Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issueSolomonW
 `* math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on thispyotr filipivich
  +- Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on SolomonW
  `- Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT anyTrolidan7

1
Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

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Subject: Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 15:23 UTC

SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sat, 24 Aug 2019 18:33:14 +1000 typed
in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:13:10 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
>> SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 21 Aug 2019 00:19:58 +1000 typed
>> in alt.history.what-if the following:
>>>
>>>I have often wondered if I was magically teleported 2500 years back and was
>>>in either the academy of Athens or Jerusalem and tried to answer their
>>>questions on science would I be faced with a similar situation?
>>
>> Would you understand the questions? Remember, in 500 BC, you are
>> at least two paradigm shifts back from the twentieth century. SO
>> many concepts we accept, still have to have their foundations worked
>> out.
>
>
>Yeah, I have been thinking a lot about this. These guys were super smart
>but as you say they are at least paradigm shifts back from the twentieth
>century, they have not yet gone through Aristotle, Newton and Einstein,
>much less do they have the mathematics required.
>
>But let us go and make an experiment to show them basic science laws. Now
>when I was in high school, the teacher to show us the law of conservation
>of mass, made us weigh some chemicals, cook them up and then weigh the
>result. According to the law of conservation of mass, the final result
>should be identical. I do not think out of 30 kids, any got that result.
>Some got more and some got less. If you did this with the wise men in these
>academies what would they say?
>
>Now if you tried to recreate Galileo leaning tower of Pisa experiment,
>which many doubt he did, I doubt you would get the balls falling together
>as Galileo theory is true only in a vacuum.
>
>If you do the experiment what you will see is that there is a slight
>difference in the time the two balls struck the ground, because of air
>resistance the heavier one will fall slightly faster. Not only that but
>because of the tendency for people to drop the light one slightly fast,
>what an observer would see is the light one goes faster and the heavier one
>overtakes the light one and hits the ground first.
>
>Now let us say you decided to explain to them basic hygiene. There is an
>interesting case of this Jewish doctor who first professionally proposed
>and implemented in charge of the maternity wing of a hospital he was in
>charge of. Using it he saved thousands of women and kids from dying during
>labour and it quickly became apparent that this theory was working.
>
>He tried to convince his fellow doctors who I am sure were very smart
>people. He failed to do so. Soon he lost his job, went crazy and ended out
>in an asylum.
>
>https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives
>
>Does anyone have any thoughts about any of this?

Coming back to this, I think a major problem our time traveling
science geek will have is trying to figure out what the locals are
thinking. I.e. it is in the nature of rocks (and water) to seek a
lower level. Which explains so much, right? And think about it, if
you take a bowling ball up on the Tower of Pisa and let go, the ball,
no longer supported "seeks the lower level". It does not consult with
a reference book to figure out what to do next.

I've been trying to work out how to do astronomy without a
telescope, or a clock.
How to do "arithmetic" without positional notation.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

<1hpp97xk8r418$.13yirqhkz340b.dlg@40tude.net>

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.medieval
Subject: Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue
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 by: SolomonW - Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:46 UTC

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:23:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

> SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sat, 24 Aug 2019 18:33:14 +1000 typed
> in alt.history.what-if the following:
>>On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:13:10 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>
>>> SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 21 Aug 2019 00:19:58 +1000 typed
>>> in alt.history.what-if the following:
>>>>
>>>>I have often wondered if I was magically teleported 2500 years back and was
>>>>in either the academy of Athens or Jerusalem and tried to answer their
>>>>questions on science would I be faced with a similar situation?
>>>
>>> Would you understand the questions? Remember, in 500 BC, you are
>>> at least two paradigm shifts back from the twentieth century. SO
>>> many concepts we accept, still have to have their foundations worked
>>> out.
>>
>>
>>Yeah, I have been thinking a lot about this. These guys were super smart
>>but as you say they are at least paradigm shifts back from the twentieth
>>century, they have not yet gone through Aristotle, Newton and Einstein,
>>much less do they have the mathematics required.
>>
>>But let us go and make an experiment to show them basic science laws. Now
>>when I was in high school, the teacher to show us the law of conservation
>>of mass, made us weigh some chemicals, cook them up and then weigh the
>>result. According to the law of conservation of mass, the final result
>>should be identical. I do not think out of 30 kids, any got that result.
>>Some got more and some got less. If you did this with the wise men in these
>>academies what would they say?
>>
>>Now if you tried to recreate Galileo leaning tower of Pisa experiment,
>>which many doubt he did, I doubt you would get the balls falling together
>>as Galileo theory is true only in a vacuum.
>>
>>If you do the experiment what you will see is that there is a slight
>>difference in the time the two balls struck the ground, because of air
>>resistance the heavier one will fall slightly faster. Not only that but
>>because of the tendency for people to drop the light one slightly fast,
>>what an observer would see is the light one goes faster and the heavier one
>>overtakes the light one and hits the ground first.
>>
>>Now let us say you decided to explain to them basic hygiene. There is an
>>interesting case of this Jewish doctor who first professionally proposed
>>and implemented in charge of the maternity wing of a hospital he was in
>>charge of. Using it he saved thousands of women and kids from dying during
>>labour and it quickly became apparent that this theory was working.
>>
>>He tried to convince his fellow doctors who I am sure were very smart
>>people. He failed to do so. Soon he lost his job, went crazy and ended out
>>in an asylum.
>>
>>https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives
>>
>>Does anyone have any thoughts about any of this?
>
> Coming back to this, I think a major problem our time traveling
> science geek will have is trying to figure out what the locals are
> thinking. I.e. it is in the nature of rocks (and water) to seek a
> lower level. Which explains so much, right? And think about it, if
> you take a bowling ball up on the Tower of Pisa and let go, the ball,
> no longer supported "seeks the lower level". It does not consult with
> a reference book to figure out what to do next.
>
> I've been trying to work out how to do astronomy

Both people had an enormous interest in this subject

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Samuel_of_Nehardea#/Scientific_knowledge

"Although I am as familiar with the courses of the stars as with the
streets of Nehardea".

And what they knew was quite surprising.

The ancient Greek astronomer, Meton, developed a calendar that uses 19
solar years equal to 235 lunar months. Then what was required to make it
work was extra leap months. His student Callippus improved it, eventually
producing the Julian calendar, whose solar year is 10.8 minutes longer than
the Gregorian calendar. Note the Gregorian calendar is slightly too long.

The ancient Jews immediately grabbed Meton idea and integrated it into
their lunar calendar, so developed it further to create an extremely
accurate calendar

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_the_Jewish_Calendar/The_long-term_accuracy_of_the_calendar

"The average length of the Jewish year over a 19 year cycle is about 365
days, 5 hr, 55 min, 25.4 sec. This is 6 min, 40.2 sec longer than the
current average value of the solar year (though that is changing very
slowly) and 6 min, 13.4 sec longer than the average value of the year in
the Gregorian calendar"

> without a
> telescope,

Galileo struggled with a telescope.

> or a clock.

Galileo struggled without a clock. He was a good singer and used songs in
music to give him time.

> How to do "arithmetic" without positional notation.

That is another problem we are used to arithmetic and algebra. They used
abacus and graphical notation with a ruler and a compass and were not
impressed with algebra. It is like you would have to translate it into
another language.

Then I am curious how to explain relativity graphically.

math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

<md7tigle5o70e18prfj3nhs90mno5tvbbb@4ax.com>

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.medieval
Subject: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Tue, 31 Aug 2021 21:46 UTC

Sorry about the delay, I'm supposedly packing to move in 7 days.

SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:46:30 +1000 typed
in alt.history.what-if the following:>
>> How to do "arithmetic" without positional notation.
>
>That is another problem we are used to arithmetic and algebra.

As I have observed, that we have Arabic numerals and positional
notation so ingrained in our thinking, that we don't really understand
that "hours" "days" and "minutes" were integers, that fractions were
ratios of whole numbers, that splitting something into two pieces
produced two "sixes" so called because they were six of the 'standard'
twelve parts used to divide things (which is why the foot is divided
into twelve "inches", and the pound into twelve "ounces".) Etc, etc,
etc.

> They used abacus and graphical notation with a ruler and a compass and were not
>impressed with algebra. It is like you would have to translate it into
>another language.

The Romans had a "weird" notation (using I, V, L and the rest, for
specific amounts.). I am not certain, but I think the Greeks must
have used more letters to denote each number A, B. G, D (etc)> know
that Slavonic used the first set of letters for values 1 to 9, another
set for values 10 to 90, and the third for 100 to 900 (so that 'ria'
would be 'one hundred and eleven').
>
>Then I am curious how to explain relativity graphically.

uhhhh, I'm not sure I could do that in 'modern' math.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

<703ths8ktkiy$.5urczczdxg3w.dlg@40tude.net>

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Subject: Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue
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 by: SolomonW - Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:16 UTC

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:46:50 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

> Sorry about the delay, I'm supposedly packing to move in 7 days.
>
> SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:46:30 +1000 typed
> in alt.history.what-if the following:>
>>> How to do "arithmetic" without positional notation.
>>
>>That is another problem we are used to arithmetic and algebra.
>
> As I have observed, that we have Arabic numerals and positional
> notation so ingrained in our thinking, that we don't really understand
> that "hours" "days" and "minutes" were integers, that fractions were
> ratios of whole numbers, that splitting something into two pieces
> produced two "sixes" so called because they were six of the 'standard'
> twelve parts used to divide things (which is why the foot is divided
> into twelve "inches", and the pound into twelve "ounces".) Etc, etc,
> etc.
>
>> They used abacus and graphical notation with a ruler and a compass and were not
>>impressed with algebra. It is like you would have to translate it into
>>another language.
>
> The Romans had a "weird" notation (using I, V, L and the rest, for
> specific amounts.).

As a general rule, the ancients calculated on an abacus and transposed the
results into what notation they were using.

(a)

Now imagine trying in Roman numeral to express terms like 300,000 or a
million? Then the largest number you can depict in Roman Numerals is 4999.
It is written,MMMMCMXCIX Later, they did add some methods to show higher
numbers, but they are not available when this POD starts.

> I am not certain, but I think the Greeks must
> have used more letters to denote each number A, B. G, D (etc)> know
> that Slavonic used the first set of letters for values 1 to 9, another
> set for values 10 to 90, and the third for 100 to 900 (so that 'ria'
> would be 'one hundred and eleven').

The Greeks did. It was adopted by several other peoples, including Jews.
Then Jews working with it made an incredible discovery that numbers could
make words. Soon numerology was born.

We are now getting back to the problem at (a). In Hebrew doing the maths,
any result over a thousand is generally dropped. So we have the same
problem as the Romans.

>>
>>Then I am curious how to explain relativity graphically.
>
> uhhhh, I'm not sure I could do that in 'modern' math.

Mmmmmm

You could start with Galilean relativity and add another postulate that c
is the speed of causality. How are you going to get them to accept this
without proof is a good question.

Then if you want to show it in their maths, I have no idea as you say its
hard enough AS IS

Re: math changes was Re: "science" in the year 500BC was Re: OT any thoughts on this issue

<shb5gi$63d$1@dont-email.me>

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 by: Trolidan7 - Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:13 UTC

On 8/31/21 2:46 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Sorry about the delay, I'm supposedly packing to move in 7 days.
>
> SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:46:30 +1000 typed
> in alt.history.what-if the following:>
>>> How to do "arithmetic" without positional notation.
>>
>> That is another problem we are used to arithmetic and algebra.
>
> As I have observed, that we have Arabic numerals and positional
> notation so ingrained in our thinking, that we don't really understand
> that "hours" "days" and "minutes" were integers, that fractions were
> ratios of whole numbers, that splitting something into two pieces
> produced two "sixes" so called because they were six of the 'standard'
> twelve parts used to divide things (which is why the foot is divided
> into twelve "inches", and the pound into twelve "ounces".) Etc, etc,
> etc.
>
>> They used abacus and graphical notation with a ruler and a compass
and were not
>> impressed with algebra. It is like you would have to translate it into
>> another language.
>
> The Romans had a "weird" notation (using I, V, L and the rest, for
> specific amounts.). I am not certain, but I think the Greeks must
> have used more letters to denote each number A, B. G, D (etc)> know
> that Slavonic used the first set of letters for values 1 to 9, another
> set for values 10 to 90, and the third for 100 to 900 (so that 'ria'
> would be 'one hundred and eleven').

There were also the Aegean numerals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_numerals

I am thinking they were probably not also letters (or syllabary glyphs)
(but who knows?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

>> Then I am curious how to explain relativity graphically.
>
> uhhhh, I'm not sure I could do that in 'modern' math.
>

1
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