[Let's see if this posts.]

The House of Rakoczi

(Descendants of Henriette Marie von Wittelsbach and Sigismund Rakoczi)

Henriette Marie (born 1626) was the third daughter of Elizabeth Stuart,
who had married the Count Palatine of the Rhine. In 1652, she married
Sigismund Rakoczi, younger brother of Gyorgi Rakoczi, Prince of
Transylvania. Transylvania was a nominal tributary of the Ottoman
Empire, but was practically independent. There were strong political and
family ties between Transylvania and Hungary proper, which was divided
between the Ottomans and the Habsburg-ruled Kingdom of Hungary. The
Reformed (Calvinist) Church had a substantial following there, including
the Rakoczi family; Gyorgi was the third of his family to be elected Prince.

OTL, Henriette Marie died only a few months after the marriage (and
Sigismund died a few months after that). In 1658, Prince Gyorgi led the
Transylvanian army on a devastating but ultimately disastrous invasion
of Poland. He was deposed by order of Turkey, and killed in 1660
resisting the Turkish troops sent to enforce their order (which included
a permanent ban on _any_ Rakoczi becoming Prince, something a lot of
Transylvanians agreed with).

After Gyorgi's death, his widow Zsofiya and son Ferencz left
Transylvania for the Rakoczi estates in Hungary proper. Zsofiya had been
born Catholic; she now converted back to that faith, and made young
Ferencz convert as well. (This was in part to align the Rakoczis with
the Habsburgs, who were contending with Turkey for Hungary.)

ATL: Sigismund and Henriette Marie live on, and have two sons and a
daughter: Gyorgi (George, for his uncle; 1653), Ferencz (Francis, like
his cousin; 1656), and Zsofiya (Sophia, for her aunt; 1658).

Gyorgi invades Poland and is deposed as OTL. Sigismund dies in 1660 at
his brother's side. Zsofiya and Ferencz leave for Hungary as OTL,
accompanied by Henriette Marie and her children. However, when Zsofiya
converts to Rome, Henriette Marie balks, being a devout Protestant. To
escape Zsofiya's pressure, Henriette Marie flees with her children to
the court of her brother, Charles Louis, who has regained their father's
realm in the Palatinate.

However, Charles Louis is a piece of work. He has quarrelled violently
with his wife (in 1658), imprisoned her, divorced her (dubiously), and
taken up with his mistress, fathering a large brood of notorious
bastards. Meanwhile, Henriette Marie's cousin Charles Stuart has just
become King of England in the Restoration. Her brother Rupert has been a
stalwart Royalist general and is in high favor at court; her mother
Elizabeth is about to move to England (as she did OTL).

So Henriette Marie also moves to England with her children in 1661. They
become George, Francis, and Sophia. She's only 35, a handsome woman,
with close royal connections. In 1664 she marries Sir Thomas XXXXXX, a
wealthy, widowed courtier. Sir Thomas is the guardian of his orphan
niece, Lady Alice ZZZZZZ (1657), the only daughter and thus heiress of
the late Earl of YYYYYY. The earldom is in abeyance for want of any male
heir. George and Alice marry in 1676; King Charles re-creates the
earldom for his young cousin. Francis and Mary also marry English spouses.

I now fetch out the butterfly net, and declare that English history for
the next 40 years is the same as OTL. Also, all of Elizabeth Stuart's
sons and older daughters fail of legitimate Protestant descendants, as
OTL. Thus Henriette Marie's children are the senior Protestant heirs to
England and Scotland after the Stuarts.

As an English peer, George now has a political role, and makes all the
right moves. He opposes James II, but avoids any entanglement with
Monmouth. He supports the Glorious Revolution. (Brother Francis serves
in William's Irish campaign.) In 1707, when Parliament needs to secure
the succession of the throne to a Protestant, George, a second cousin of
Queen Anne, is the senior Protestant. (In OTL, that was Elizabeth
Stuart's youngest daughter, Sofia of Hanover, and then her son George,
who became George I.)

In 1714, when Anne dies, George I Rakoczi becomes King of Great Britain.

God Save the Magyar King of England!

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 6:28:52 PM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> [Let's see if this posts.]
>
> The House of Rakoczi
>
> (Descendants of Henriette Marie von Wittelsbach and Sigismund Rakoczi)
>
> Henriette Marie (born 1626) was the third daughter of Elizabeth Stuart,
> who had married the Count Palatine of the Rhine. In 1652, she married
> Sigismund Rakoczi, younger brother of Gyorgi Rakoczi, Prince of
> Transylvania. Transylvania was a nominal tributary of the Ottoman
> Empire, but was practically independent. There were strong political and
> family ties between Transylvania and Hungary proper, which was divided
> between the Ottomans and the Habsburg-ruled Kingdom of Hungary. The
> Reformed (Calvinist) Church had a substantial following there, including
> the Rakoczi family; Gyorgi was the third of his family to be elected Prince.
>
> OTL, Henriette Marie died only a few months after the marriage (and
> Sigismund died a few months after that). In 1658, Prince Gyorgi led the
> Transylvanian army on a devastating but ultimately disastrous invasion
> of Poland. He was deposed by order of Turkey, and killed in 1660
> resisting the Turkish troops sent to enforce their order (which included
> a permanent ban on _any_ Rakoczi becoming Prince, something a lot of
> Transylvanians agreed with).
>
> After Gyorgi's death, his widow Zsofiya and son Ferencz left
> Transylvania for the Rakoczi estates in Hungary proper. Zsofiya had been
> born Catholic; she now converted back to that faith, and made young
> Ferencz convert as well. (This was in part to align the Rakoczis with
> the Habsburgs, who were contending with Turkey for Hungary.)
>
> ATL: Sigismund and Henriette Marie live on, and have two sons and a
> daughter: Gyorgi (George, for his uncle; 1653), Ferencz (Francis, like
> his cousin; 1656), and Zsofiya (Sophia, for her aunt; 1658).
>
> Gyorgi invades Poland and is deposed as OTL. Sigismund dies in 1660 at
> his brother's side. Zsofiya and Ferencz leave for Hungary as OTL,
> accompanied by Henriette Marie and her children. However, when Zsofiya
> converts to Rome, Henriette Marie balks, being a devout Protestant. To
> escape Zsofiya's pressure, Henriette Marie flees with her children to
> the court of her brother, Charles Louis, who has regained their father's
> realm in the Palatinate.
>
> However, Charles Louis is a piece of work. He has quarrelled violently
> with his wife (in 1658), imprisoned her, divorced her (dubiously), and
> taken up with his mistress, fathering a large brood of notorious
> bastards. Meanwhile, Henriette Marie's cousin Charles Stuart has just
> become King of England in the Restoration. Her brother Rupert has been a
> stalwart Royalist general and is in high favor at court; her mother
> Elizabeth is about to move to England (as she did OTL).
>
> So Henriette Marie also moves to England with her children in 1661. They
> become George, Francis, and Sophia. She's only 35, a handsome woman,
> with close royal connections. In 1664 she marries Sir Thomas XXXXXX, a
> wealthy, widowed courtier. Sir Thomas is the guardian of his orphan
> niece, Lady Alice ZZZZZZ (1657), the only daughter and thus heiress of
> the late Earl of YYYYYY. The earldom is in abeyance for want of any male
> heir. George and Alice marry in 1676; King Charles re-creates the
> earldom for his young cousin. Francis and Mary also marry English spouses..
>
> I now fetch out the butterfly net, and declare that English history for
> the next 40 years is the same as OTL. Also, all of Elizabeth Stuart's
> sons and older daughters fail of legitimate Protestant descendants, as
> OTL. Thus Henriette Marie's children are the senior Protestant heirs to
> England and Scotland after the Stuarts.
>
> As an English peer, George now has a political role, and makes all the
> right moves. He opposes James II, but avoids any entanglement with
> Monmouth. He supports the Glorious Revolution. (Brother Francis serves
> in William's Irish campaign.) In 1707, when Parliament needs to secure
> the succession of the throne to a Protestant, George, a second cousin of
> Queen Anne, is the senior Protestant. (In OTL, that was Elizabeth
> Stuart's youngest daughter, Sofia of Hanover, and then her son George,
> who became George I.)
>
> In 1714, when Anne dies, George I Rakoczi becomes King of Great Britain.
>
> God Save the Magyar King of England!
>
The first part is very plausible. However, I have some difficulty in imagining Prince Rupert's sister marrying a mere knight, or his nephew marrying the daughter of an earl. Remember how Charles II reacted when the Duke of York proposed to marry a second commoner. "He had played the fool once ..." *George (born 1653) is the grandson of a reigning Prince of Transylvania and a (Winter) King of Bohemia, and might even be a candidate for the hand of his second cousin the Lady Anne, who in OTL married another George born in 1653 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_George_of_Denmark If so, *George, who has lived in England since the age of eight, might be a significant player in the Glorious Revolution - more so than George of Denmark (Est-il possible) was in OTL. Whether *George might be a candidate for the hand of the Lady Mary is another question - in OTL there were political reasons for her marriage to William of Orange.

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 10:27:33 PM UTC+1, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 6:28:52 PM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> > [Let's see if this posts.]
> >
> > The House of Rakoczi
> >
> > (Descendants of Henriette Marie von Wittelsbach and Sigismund Rakoczi)
> >
> > Henriette Marie (born 1626) was the third daughter of Elizabeth Stuart,
> > who had married the Count Palatine of the Rhine. In 1652, she married
> > Sigismund Rakoczi, younger brother of Gyorgi Rakoczi, Prince of
> > Transylvania. Transylvania was a nominal tributary of the Ottoman
> > Empire, but was practically independent. There were strong political and
> > family ties between Transylvania and Hungary proper, which was divided
> > between the Ottomans and the Habsburg-ruled Kingdom of Hungary. The
> > Reformed (Calvinist) Church had a substantial following there, including
> > the Rakoczi family; Gyorgi was the third of his family to be elected Prince.
> >
> > OTL, Henriette Marie died only a few months after the marriage (and
> > Sigismund died a few months after that). In 1658, Prince Gyorgi led the
> > Transylvanian army on a devastating but ultimately disastrous invasion
> > of Poland. He was deposed by order of Turkey, and killed in 1660
> > resisting the Turkish troops sent to enforce their order (which included
> > a permanent ban on _any_ Rakoczi becoming Prince, something a lot of
> > Transylvanians agreed with).
> >
> > After Gyorgi's death, his widow Zsofiya and son Ferencz left
> > Transylvania for the Rakoczi estates in Hungary proper. Zsofiya had been
> > born Catholic; she now converted back to that faith, and made young
> > Ferencz convert as well. (This was in part to align the Rakoczis with
> > the Habsburgs, who were contending with Turkey for Hungary.)
> >
> > ATL: Sigismund and Henriette Marie live on, and have two sons and a
> > daughter: Gyorgi (George, for his uncle; 1653), Ferencz (Francis, like
> > his cousin; 1656), and Zsofiya (Sophia, for her aunt; 1658).
> >
> > Gyorgi invades Poland and is deposed as OTL. Sigismund dies in 1660 at
> > his brother's side. Zsofiya and Ferencz leave for Hungary as OTL,
> > accompanied by Henriette Marie and her children. However, when Zsofiya
> > converts to Rome, Henriette Marie balks, being a devout Protestant. To
> > escape Zsofiya's pressure, Henriette Marie flees with her children to
> > the court of her brother, Charles Louis, who has regained their father's
> > realm in the Palatinate.
> >
> > However, Charles Louis is a piece of work. He has quarrelled violently
> > with his wife (in 1658), imprisoned her, divorced her (dubiously), and
> > taken up with his mistress, fathering a large brood of notorious
> > bastards. Meanwhile, Henriette Marie's cousin Charles Stuart has just
> > become King of England in the Restoration. Her brother Rupert has been a
> > stalwart Royalist general and is in high favor at court; her mother
> > Elizabeth is about to move to England (as she did OTL).
> >
> > So Henriette Marie also moves to England with her children in 1661. They
> > become George, Francis, and Sophia. She's only 35, a handsome woman,
> > with close royal connections. In 1664 she marries Sir Thomas XXXXXX, a
> > wealthy, widowed courtier. Sir Thomas is the guardian of his orphan
> > niece, Lady Alice ZZZZZZ (1657), the only daughter and thus heiress of
> > the late Earl of YYYYYY. The earldom is in abeyance for want of any male
> > heir. George and Alice marry in 1676; King Charles re-creates the
> > earldom for his young cousin. Francis and Mary also marry English spouses.
> >
> > I now fetch out the butterfly net, and declare that English history for
> > the next 40 years is the same as OTL. Also, all of Elizabeth Stuart's
> > sons and older daughters fail of legitimate Protestant descendants, as
> > OTL. Thus Henriette Marie's children are the senior Protestant heirs to
> > England and Scotland after the Stuarts.
> >
> > As an English peer, George now has a political role, and makes all the
> > right moves. He opposes James II, but avoids any entanglement with
> > Monmouth. He supports the Glorious Revolution. (Brother Francis serves
> > in William's Irish campaign.) In 1707, when Parliament needs to secure
> > the succession of the throne to a Protestant, George, a second cousin of
> > Queen Anne, is the senior Protestant. (In OTL, that was Elizabeth
> > Stuart's youngest daughter, Sofia of Hanover, and then her son George,
> > who became George I.)
> >
> > In 1714, when Anne dies, George I Rakoczi becomes King of Great Britain..
> >
> > God Save the Magyar King of England!
> >
> The first part is very plausible. However, I have some difficulty in imagining Prince Rupert's sister marrying a mere knight, or his nephew marrying the daughter of an earl. Remember how Charles II reacted when the Duke of York proposed to marry a second commoner. "He had played the fool once ..." *George (born 1653) is the grandson of a reigning Prince of Transylvania and a (Winter) King of Bohemia, and might even be a candidate for the hand of his second cousin the Lady Anne, who in OTL married another George born in 1653 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_George_of_Denmark If so, *George, who has lived in England since the age of eight, might be a significant player in the Glorious Revolution - more so than George of Denmark (Est-il possible) was in OTL. Whether *George might be a candidate for the hand of the Lady Mary is another question - in OTL there were political reasons for her marriage to William of Orange.
>
Depending on when in 1661 *Henriette Marie arrives in England, she might even catch the roving eye of Charles II. Although she turns 35 that year, she has already produced three healthy children and is, per your post above, 'a handsome woman'. She is also a Protestant, which might make the match more popular than his OTL one with the Roman Catholic Catherine of Braganza - and Charles is canny enough to care about what will please the populace. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sophia-Hanover-Princess-Heiress-Britain/dp/0720613426 says that her sister Sophia spoke English among other languages - so if *Henriette Marie also learned it from their mother, that will be an added advantage. I can imagine Charles debating the issue in his mind, hearing two courtiers joking about Anne of Cleves' failure to live up to her portrait (In Henry VIII's eyes, at least), and deciding to marry a 34-year-old whom he has seen rather than a 22-year-old whom he has not. Their being first cousins will of course create no more of a barrier to the union than it did for Williamandmary.

On 8/18/21 1:07 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> Depending on when in 1661 *Henriette Marie arrives in England, she might even catch the roving eye of Charles II. Although she turns 35 that year, she has already produced three healthy children and is, per your post above, 'a handsome woman'. She is also a Protestant, which might make the match more popular than his OTL one with the Roman Catholic Catherine of Braganza - and Charles is canny enough to care about what will please the populace.

She's 35, and she has no dowry - unlike Catherine who brought 2,000,000
crowns, Bombay, and Tangier as her dowry.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On 8/17/21 4:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> The first part is very plausible. However, I have some difficulty in
> imagining Prince Rupert's sister marrying a mere knight, or his nephew
> marrying the daughter of an earl. Remember how Charles II reacted when
> the Duke of York proposed to marry a second commoner.

James was the King's brother, and heir presumptive to the throne.

The Rakoczis are poor cousins. Henrietta Marie is 13th in line for
the throne (though that includes five Catholics besides James),
beside any possible additional descendants of Charles, James,
Karl Ludwig (the Count Palatine), and Rupert (her two older sisters
are both nuns.)

Let's make Sir Thomas the grandson of a duke and the son-in-law
of a marquess. Charles could drop a title on him to make the
marriage less infra dig.

> *George (born 1653) is the grandson of a reigning Prince
> of Transylvania and a (Winter) King of Bohemia...

Both long dead. His father's family has been expelled from Transylvania.
He's the nephew of the Count Palatine. That and tuppence will get him a
cup of coffee.

> and might even be a candidate for the hand of his second cousin the > Lady Anne, who in OTL married another George born in 1653
> -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_George_of_Denmark

Who was a scion of a reigning royal house.

> If so, *George, who has lived in England since the age of eight,
> might be a significant player in the Glorious Revolution...

I noted that he was.

> Whether *George might be a candidate for
> the hand of the Lady Mary is another question - in OTL there were
> political reasons for her marriage to William of Orange.

Unlikely. William was a Prince.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 8:48:27 PM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 8/18/21 1:07 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > Depending on when in 1661 *Henriette Marie arrives in England, she might even catch the roving eye of Charles II. Although she turns 35 that year, she has already produced three healthy children and is, per your post above, 'a handsome woman'. She is also a Protestant, which might make the match more popular than his OTL one with the Roman Catholic Catherine of Braganza - and Charles is canny enough to care about what will please the populace..
> She's 35, and she has no dowry - unlike Catherine who brought 2,000,000
> crowns, Bombay, and Tangier as her dowry.
>
For all the use Tangier turned out to be - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Tangier - "The enclave was expensive to defend and fortify and offered neither commercial nor military advantage to England."

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 9:30:12 PM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 8/17/21 4:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > The first part is very plausible. However, I have some difficulty in
> > imagining Prince Rupert's sister marrying a mere knight, or his nephew
> > marrying the daughter of an earl. Remember how Charles II reacted when
> > the Duke of York proposed to marry a second commoner.
> James was the King's brother, and heir presumptive to the throne.
>
> The Rakoczis are poor cousins. Henrietta Marie is 13th in line for
> the throne (though that includes five Catholics besides James),
> beside any possible additional descendants of Charles, James,
> Karl Ludwig (the Count Palatine), and Rupert (her two older sisters
> are both nuns.)
>
> Let's make Sir Thomas the grandson of a duke and the son-in-law
> of a marquess. Charles could drop a title on him to make the
> marriage less infra dig.
> > *George (born 1653) is the grandson of a reigning Prince
> > of Transylvania and a (Winter) King of Bohemia...
>
> Both long dead. His father's family has been expelled from Transylvania.
> He's the nephew of the Count Palatine. That and tuppence will get him a
> cup of coffee.
> > and might even be a candidate for the hand of his second cousin the > Lady Anne, who in OTL married another George born in 1653
> > -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_George_of_Denmark
> Who was a scion of a reigning royal house.
> > If so, *George, who has lived in England since the age of eight,
> > might be a significant player in the Glorious Revolution...
>
> I noted that he was.
> > Whether *George might be a candidate for
> > the hand of the Lady Mary is another question - in OTL there were
> > political reasons for her marriage to William of Orange.
> Unlikely. William was a Prince.
>
A later example would be Mary of Teck, who was engaged to one heir to the British throne and married to another despite being the daughter of a penniless Wurttemberg morganaut. I'm sure some daughters of reigning European houses were miffed.

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 8/17/21 4:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>> The first part is very plausible. However, I have some difficulty in
>> imagining Prince Rupert's sister marrying a mere knight, or his nephew
>> marrying the daughter of an earl. Remember how Charles II reacted when
>> the Duke of York proposed to marry a second commoner.
>
> James was the King's brother, and heir presumptive to the throne.
>
> The Rakoczis are poor cousins. Henrietta Marie is 13th in line for
> the throne (though that includes five Catholics besides James),
> beside any possible additional descendants of Charles, James,
> Karl Ludwig (the Count Palatine), and Rupert (her two older sisters
> are both nuns.)
>
> Let's make Sir Thomas the grandson of a duke and the son-in-law
> of a marquess. Charles could drop a title on him to make the
> marriage less infra dig.

In 1660/1 Charles restored the Dukedom of Norfolk to the Howards
and the Dukedom of Somerset to the Seymours...Henry Howard,who would
succeed an insane brother as 6th Duke of Norfolk in 1677,was widowed
in 1662,and John Seymour MP,who would succeed a childless nephew as
4th Duke of Somerset in 1671 and died childless in 1675,contracted
his only marriage in 1661...might either be viable?
I can't recall any other non-royal ducal families at the time.

>> *George (born 1653) is the grandson of a reigning Prince
>> of Transylvania and a (Winter) King of Bohemia...
>
> Both long dead. His father's family has been expelled from Transylvania.
> He's the nephew of the Count Palatine. That and tuppence will get him a
> cup of coffee.
>
>> and might even be a candidate for the hand of his second cousin the > Lady Anne, who in OTL married another George born in 1653
>> -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_George_of_Denmark
>
> Who was a scion of a reigning royal house.
>
>> If so, *George, who has lived in England since the age of eight,
>> might be a significant player in the Glorious Revolution...
>
> I noted that he was.
>
>> Whether *George might be a candidate for
>> the hand of the Lady Mary is another question - in OTL there were
>> political reasons for her marriage to William of Orange.
>
> Unlikely. William was a Prince.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On 8/24/21 7:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Henry Howard,who would
> succeed an insane brother as 6th Duke of Norfolk in 1677,was widowed
> in 1662,and John Seymour MP,who would succeed a childless nephew as
> 4th Duke of Somerset in 1671 and died childless in 1675,contracted
> his only marriage in 1661...might either be viable?

Howeard is Catholic; Henrietta Maria is a devout Protestant. That's
why she left Hungary.

Wiki sez John Seymour married in 1656.

In any case, I don't see why a ducal relation is required.

As of 1664, the succession to the throne is

James Stuart, Duke of York
- Mary Stuart
- James Stuart, Duke of Cambridge

(Mary Stuart, Princess Royal)
- William III, Prince of Orange

Henrietta Anne Stuart, Duchesse d'Orléans
- Marie Louise d'Orléans
- Philippe Charles d'Orléans (born 16 July 1664)

(Elizabeth Stuart, Queen of Bohemia)
-Charles I Louis von Wittelsbach, Elector Palatine
--Charles II von Wittelsbach
--Elizabeth Charlotte von Wittelsbach

-Rupert von Wittelsbach, Count Palatine of the Rhine

-(Edward von Wittelsbach, Count Palatine of Simmern)
--Luise Marie von Wittelsbach
--Anne Henriette von Wittelsbach
--Benedicta Henrietta von Wittelsbach

-Elisabeth von Wittelsbach
-Louise Hollandine von Wittelsbach

-Henrietta Maria von Wittelsbach
--Gyorgi Rakoczi**
--Zsofiya Rakoczi**
--Ferencz Rakoczi**

-Sofia von Wittelsbach
-- George of Hanover...

Names in parenthesis are deceased. ** are ATL persons.

Thus Henrietta Maria is 16th in line (17th after Philippe Charles
d'Orléans is born).

All of these people could have additional children, except her
older sisters, who had become nuns. (Elisabeth was a Protestant
nun; Louise Hollandine had absconded to Italy and was a Catholic
nun, to the great disgust of her mother.) Several others were
Catholics, but that was not yet an absolute bar to succession.

In OTL, all of these people and their descendants either d.s.p.
or were excluded as Catholics, and the succession fell to George
of Hanover. But that hardly seemed likely in 1664.

Thus IMO there would be no difficulty about Henrietta Maria
marrying Sir Thomas, and the crown would descend to Gyorgi.

---
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 8/24/21 7:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> Henry Howard,who would
>> succeed an insane brother as 6th Duke of Norfolk in 1677,was widowed
>> in 1662,and John Seymour MP,who would succeed a childless nephew as
>> 4th Duke of Somerset in 1671 and died childless in 1675,contracted
>> his only marriage in 1661...might either be viable?
>
> Howeard is Catholic; Henrietta Maria is a devout Protestant. That's
> why she left Hungary.
>
> Wiki sez John Seymour married in 1656.
>
> In any case, I don't see why a ducal relation is required.
>
> As of 1664, the succession to the throne is
>
> James Stuart, Duke of York
> - Mary Stuart
> - James Stuart, Duke of Cambridge
>
> (Mary Stuart, Princess Royal)
> - William III, Prince of Orange
>
> Henrietta Anne Stuart, Duchesse d'Orl?ans
> - Marie Louise d'Orl?ans
> - Philippe Charles d'Orl?ans (born 16 July 1664)
>
> (Elizabeth Stuart, Queen of Bohemia)
> -Charles I Louis von Wittelsbach, Elector Palatine
> --Charles II von Wittelsbach
> --Elizabeth Charlotte von Wittelsbach
>
> -Rupert von Wittelsbach, Count Palatine of the Rhine
>
> -(Edward von Wittelsbach, Count Palatine of Simmern)
> --Luise Marie von Wittelsbach
> --Anne Henriette von Wittelsbach
> --Benedicta Henrietta von Wittelsbach

You are excluding the Raugraf line whose Schomberg-Holderness-etc.
descendants were Protestant?
> -Elisabeth von Wittelsbach
> -Louise Hollandine von Wittelsbach
>
> -Henrietta Maria von Wittelsbach
> --Gyorgi Rakoczi**
> --Zsofiya Rakoczi**
> --Ferencz Rakoczi**
>
> -Sofia von Wittelsbach
> -- George of Hanover...
>
> Names in parenthesis are deceased. ** are ATL persons.
>
> Thus Henrietta Maria is 16th in line (17th after Philippe Charles
> d'Orl?ans is born).
>
> All of these people could have additional children, except her
> older sisters, who had become nuns. (Elisabeth was a Protestant
> nun; Louise Hollandine had absconded to Italy and was a Catholic
> nun, to the great disgust of her mother.) Several others were
> Catholics, but that was not yet an absolute bar to succession.
>
> In OTL, all of these people and their descendants either d.s.p.
> or were excluded as Catholics, and the succession fell to George
> of Hanover. But that hardly seemed likely in 1664.
>
> Thus IMO there would be no difficulty about Henrietta Maria
> marrying Sir Thomas, and the crown would descend to Gyorgi.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On 9/10/21 11:54 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
> You are excluding the Raugraf line whose Schomberg-Holderness-etc.
> descendants were Protestant?

They were of dubious legitimacy, and had no claim even to Palatinate.
And as of 1664, Karl Ludwig had not yet invested their mother with
the Raugraf title.

Certainly the Parliament of England never considered them when
working out the Act of Settlement.

In any case, their existence was irrelevant to the issue
addressed in that post: namely whether Henriette Marie
would be considered "close" to the crown, and therefore too
exalted to marry an wealthy but untitled courtier.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.