Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Most general statements are false, including this one. -- Alexander Dumas


arts / alt.history.what-if / Japan delays her moderization

SubjectAuthor
* Japan delays her moderizationSolomonW
+* Re: Japan delays her moderizationdama...@gmail.com
|`* Re: Japan delays her moderizationSolomonW
| `- Re: Japan delays her moderizationdama...@gmail.com
`* Re: Japan delays her moderizationx
 `- Re: Japan delays her moderizationSolomonW

1
Japan delays her moderization

<1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6867&group=alt.history.what-if#6867

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Japan delays her moderization
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:50:18 +1000
Organization: Truth with honesty
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="2abd7785f388b1d63b68528a0c5cde9b";
logging-data="6585"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19kCVmNrImVo4PZ4YczQxpCQ3kMRJYX0Ok="
User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:/rpxjAqXECe1EWmNlaVvQ6VhujA=
 by: SolomonW - Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:50 UTC

Although it commonly stated that in 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry from the
United States forced Japan to open up. Then soon afterwards, Russia, soon
other European powers, forced their entry.

This is not entirely true. Japan still had considerable strength. Many in
Japan were very much against the opening up. These people argued that
although Japan had fallen behind, Japan military strength should be enough
to stop the opening.

In this, they were right as Japan, after all, had more military power then,
than Korea. Korea a few years later, in 1866, when General Sherman from the
USA arrived in Korea to start trade there, drove him away. A short while
later, a French fleet tried to open up Korea and was driven out too. Then
Japan came and, in a show of military might, opened up Korea that was in
1882.

So we can assume that Japan could have remained closed till at least 1882
and probably a bit longer.

Okay, let us say that Japan remained closed till 1890. Think of the
changes.

At the same time that Japan opened up in the OTL, China was opening up too.
So we have China given a 30-year start. With a bigger population and
resources, China in the mid-1900s would have been a significant regional
power. It would not have suffered the disastrous Sino-Japanese war, which
started the events that led to the collapse of its government.

How do things play out?

Re: Japan delays her moderization

<9ed2d093-c086-49b9-8297-9eaf42e62c09n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6868&group=alt.history.what-if#6868

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:a37:9e8d:: with SMTP id h135mr26217215qke.189.1632223622840;
Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a37:f613:: with SMTP id y19mr28601098qkj.524.1632223622628;
Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=50.222.115.110; posting-account=09VrTAoAAAB_TCOu-ilK7mcryQpoQfic
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.222.115.110
References: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9ed2d093-c086-49b9-8297-9eaf42e62c09n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Japan delays her moderization
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:27:02 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 49
 by: dama...@gmail.com - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:27 UTC

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 5:50:20 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
> Although it commonly stated that in 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry from the
> United States forced Japan to open up. Then soon afterwards, Russia, soon
> other European powers, forced their entry.
>
> This is not entirely true. Japan still had considerable strength. Many in
> Japan were very much against the opening up. These people argued that
> although Japan had fallen behind, Japan military strength should be enough
> to stop the opening.
>
> In this, they were right as Japan, after all, had more military power then,
> than Korea. Korea a few years later, in 1866, when General Sherman from the
> USA arrived in Korea to start trade there, drove him away. A short while
> later, a French fleet tried to open up Korea and was driven out too. Then
> Japan came and, in a show of military might, opened up Korea that was in
> 1882.
>
> So we can assume that Japan could have remained closed till at least 1882
> and probably a bit longer.
>
> Okay, let us say that Japan remained closed till 1890. Think of the
> changes.
>
> At the same time that Japan opened up in the OTL, China was opening up too.
> So we have China given a 30-year start. With a bigger population and
> resources, China in the mid-1900s would have been a significant regional
> power. It would not have suffered the disastrous Sino-Japanese war, which
> started the events that led to the collapse of its government.
>
> How do things play out?
I'm not sure China would have turned out different. There were still many different factions in China, all vying for more power. And then you still have the European influence in China with the colonies and territorial holdings. I am sure they would have had a say just as they did during the Boxer Rebellion.

Dean

Re: Japan delays her moderization

<12txi8dvvq2p9$.nkrdxm3vxtbw.dlg@40tude.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6869&group=alt.history.what-if#6869

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Japan delays her moderization
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:43:51 +1000
Organization: Truth with honesty
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <12txi8dvvq2p9$.nkrdxm3vxtbw.dlg@40tude.net>
References: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net> <9ed2d093-c086-49b9-8297-9eaf42e62c09n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="d86965034574b58830bed2353ee8008e";
logging-data="18517"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/erE331G8YM40YoSlU4fixOq2Pw3LPMbI="
User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:m+6oIVpqsfnRP/S32uoGg3H3DjE=
 by: SolomonW - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:43 UTC

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:27:02 -0700 (PDT), dama...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 5:50:20 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
>> Although it commonly stated that in 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry from the
>> United States forced Japan to open up. Then soon afterwards, Russia, soon
>> other European powers, forced their entry.
>>
>> This is not entirely true. Japan still had considerable strength. Many in
>> Japan were very much against the opening up. These people argued that
>> although Japan had fallen behind, Japan military strength should be enough
>> to stop the opening.
>>
>> In this, they were right as Japan, after all, had more military power then,
>> than Korea. Korea a few years later, in 1866, when General Sherman from the
>> USA arrived in Korea to start trade there, drove him away. A short while
>> later, a French fleet tried to open up Korea and was driven out too. Then
>> Japan came and, in a show of military might, opened up Korea that was in
>> 1882.
>>
>> So we can assume that Japan could have remained closed till at least 1882
>> and probably a bit longer.
>>
>> Okay, let us say that Japan remained closed till 1890. Think of the
>> changes.
>>
>> At the same time that Japan opened up in the OTL, China was opening up too.
>> So we have China given a 30-year start. With a bigger population and
>> resources, China in the mid-1900s would have been a significant regional
>> power. It would not have suffered the disastrous Sino-Japanese war, which
>> started the events that led to the collapse of its government.
>>
>> How do things play out?
> I'm not sure China would have turned out different. There were still many different factions in China, all vying for more power. And then you still have the European influence in China with the colonies and territorial holdings. I am sure they would have had a say just as they did during the Boxer Rebellion.
>
> Dean

Without the stress caused by the collapse in the First Sino-Japanese War, I
doubt the boxers would be an issue.

Re: Japan delays her moderization

<78b45079-d6f3-4820-bed1-d80b80d7ed62n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6870&group=alt.history.what-if#6870

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:71cd:: with SMTP id i13mr5815267qtp.159.1632419178967;
Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7050:: with SMTP id y16mr6167447qtm.399.1632419178808;
Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <12txi8dvvq2p9$.nkrdxm3vxtbw.dlg@40tude.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=50.222.115.110; posting-account=09VrTAoAAAB_TCOu-ilK7mcryQpoQfic
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.222.115.110
References: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net> <9ed2d093-c086-49b9-8297-9eaf42e62c09n@googlegroups.com>
<12txi8dvvq2p9$.nkrdxm3vxtbw.dlg@40tude.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <78b45079-d6f3-4820-bed1-d80b80d7ed62n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Japan delays her moderization
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:46:18 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: dama...@gmail.com - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:46 UTC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:43:54 PM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:27:02 -0700 (PDT), dama...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 5:50:20 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
> >> Although it commonly stated that in 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry from the
> >> United States forced Japan to open up. Then soon afterwards, Russia, soon
> >> other European powers, forced their entry.
> >>
> >> This is not entirely true. Japan still had considerable strength. Many in
> >> Japan were very much against the opening up. These people argued that
> >> although Japan had fallen behind, Japan military strength should be enough
> >> to stop the opening.
> >>
> >> In this, they were right as Japan, after all, had more military power then,
> >> than Korea. Korea a few years later, in 1866, when General Sherman from the
> >> USA arrived in Korea to start trade there, drove him away. A short while
> >> later, a French fleet tried to open up Korea and was driven out too. Then
> >> Japan came and, in a show of military might, opened up Korea that was in
> >> 1882.
> >>
> >> So we can assume that Japan could have remained closed till at least 1882
> >> and probably a bit longer.
> >>
> >> Okay, let us say that Japan remained closed till 1890. Think of the
> >> changes.
> >>
> >> At the same time that Japan opened up in the OTL, China was opening up too.
> >> So we have China given a 30-year start. With a bigger population and
> >> resources, China in the mid-1900s would have been a significant regional
> >> power. It would not have suffered the disastrous Sino-Japanese war, which
> >> started the events that led to the collapse of its government.
> >>
> >> How do things play out?
> > I'm not sure China would have turned out different. There were still many different factions in China, all vying for more power. And then you still have the European influence in China with the colonies and territorial holdings. I am sure they would have had a say just as they did during the Boxer Rebellion.
> >
> > Dean
> Without the stress caused by the collapse in the First Sino-Japanese War, I
> doubt the boxers would be an issue.
Perhaps but even then, China was fragile with lot's of competing interests.

Re: Japan delays her moderization

<siik6l$1on$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6871&group=alt.history.what-if#6871

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!rKthp8I8m386Iieyos3EOg.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: x...@x.org (x)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Japan delays her moderization
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:23:00 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <siik6l$1on$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="1815"; posting-host="rKthp8I8m386Iieyos3EOg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
Content-Language: en-US
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: x - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:23 UTC

On 9/18/21 2:50 AM, SolomonW wrote:
> Although it commonly stated that in 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry
from the
> United States forced Japan to open up. Then soon afterwards, Russia, soon
> other European powers, forced their entry.
>
> This is not entirely true. Japan still had considerable strength. Many in
> Japan were very much against the opening up. These people argued that
> although Japan had fallen behind, Japan military strength should be
enough
> to stop the opening.
>
> In this, they were right as Japan, after all, had more military power
then,
> than Korea. Korea a few years later, in 1866, when General Sherman
from the
> USA arrived in Korea to start trade there, drove him away. A short while
> later, a French fleet tried to open up Korea and was driven out too. Then
> Japan came and, in a show of military might, opened up Korea that was in
> 1882.
>
> So we can assume that Japan could have remained closed till at least 1882
> and probably a bit longer.
>
> Okay, let us say that Japan remained closed till 1890. Think of the
> changes.
>
> At the same time that Japan opened up in the OTL, China was opening
up too.
> So we have China given a 30-year start. With a bigger population and
> resources, China in the mid-1900s would have been a significant regional
> power. It would not have suffered the disastrous Sino-Japanese war,
which
> started the events that led to the collapse of its government.
>
> How do things play out?

China in this time line would have just as much inertia, and less
incentive for modernizing.

As for Japan, probably gunboats from France and conflicts with upper
nobility, Shogun, and Emperor would result in Japan becoming a colony
of the U.K. This is because the U.K. offered better deals for its
colonies than most of the other European powers - a lot of autonomy -
coupled with trade favoring the U.K. - but again comparatively a lot
of autonomy.

The net result would be that Japan would modernize much less, and
probably be better than the Philippines, but not much so, and there
would be no Asian Tigers that were once part of Japan like Korea.
It would again become independent like much of the rest of the
British Empire did during the middle 20th century.

China would likely become a colony of Russia like it was in our
time line. If however no Russo-Japanese War mutates WWI too much
with no Russian Revolution and the Bolsheviks, then that could
potentially be different also.

Re: Japan delays her moderization

<1qhm46rx6apwm$.vjk1kmx8yvds$.dlg@40tude.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6872&group=alt.history.what-if#6872

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Japan delays her moderization
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:32:00 +1000
Organization: Truth with honesty
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <1qhm46rx6apwm$.vjk1kmx8yvds$.dlg@40tude.net>
References: <1pbs7brffqhyt.60rv5ch1jfl0$.dlg@40tude.net> <siik6l$1on$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="5167e05511456b065e56925f54060a9b";
logging-data="10482"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19WtO4CuIoWDw/0Jq3kyrq9cCXaSE89B0s="
User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:fsKrfER65TqzWv5DC4SmWh7gQho=
 by: SolomonW - Fri, 24 Sep 2021 02:32 UTC

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:23:00 -0700, x wrote:

> China would likely become a colony of Russia like it was in our
> time line.

Imperial Russia could not hold on to Alaska, China is much more.

> If however no Russo-Japanese War mutates WWI too much
> with no Russian Revolution and the Bolsheviks, then that could
> potentially be different also.

indeed

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor