On 2/15/2022 5:00 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> On 2/15/22 12:59, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 2/15/2022 10:14 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:56:15 AM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> Stuff deleted
>
>>
>> When I worked for TXU (the largest electricity company in Texas) back
>> in the 1980s, our insurance deductible was $30 million.  We managed to
>> nail it at least once during the eight years I worked there.
>>
>> https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/02/17/An-electrical-power-plant-disabled-by-an-explosion-and/1253540536400/
>>
>>
>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire.  One of the low
>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>> at 3,600 rpm.  The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>> the 350 MW generator to fail.  And then the fire started and was fed
>> by the DC turbine lube oil pump with 10,000 gallons of lube oil for
>> six hours.
>>
>> Lynn
>
> I would NOT have wanted to work that fire. Way too explosive with
> invisible flame (hydrogen!) and too much mythel-eythel bad stuff.

They just stood there and watched it burn out. The 5,000 ??? 10,000 ???
ft3 of hydrogen burned quick. The problem was the DC lube oil pump.
The DC lube oil pump ran out of batteries after six hours (1,000 deep
cycle 12 volt batteries). All inaccessible due to the fire so the
operators could not turn the DC circuit breaker off. The fire was in a
contained space, a 80 ft wide by 60 ft tall by 400+ ft long sheet metal
building. I'll bet it hit 300 F in that building. Not even a Scott Air
Pack could take that.

Lynn

On 2/15/2022 12:59 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 10:14 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:56:15 AM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 22:22:34 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
>>> <t...@none.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Aren't you basically saying they made a corporate decision to go cheap
>>>>> on launch costs and are now getting bitten for what turns out to be
>>>>> false economy?
>>>>
>>>> I'm fairly certain it's a deliberate choice they're making and that
>>>> they accept the risk. It's possible they "lost" the bet here but it
>>>> may also be within calculated risk parameters (see below).
>>>>
>>>> In this case the trigger event happened after the launch, if it had
>>>> happened just a few hours earlier they likely would have delayed the
>>>> launch and offloaded a few of the satellites to launch in a slightly
>>>> higher initial orbit. So, well, oops, but they likely knew that would
>>>> happen eventually.
>>> That sounds a LOT like what was being said after January 1986 other
>>> than that no human lives were lost and no macabre jokes like "NASA
>>> stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts" are being said.
>>
>> It's the way Musk likes to do things. He's not afraid to take calculated
>> risks, and have very public failures if doing so means he moves ahead.
>> It's the 'move quickly and break stuff' Silicon Valley mentality. These
>> failures are just part of doing business, and he won't be fired for them.
>>
>> The only people he has to justify himself to are his insurers, who know
>> all about calculated risks.
>>
>> Here's a fun compilation of Starship tests:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztHUxBduRmE
>>
>> pt
>
> When I worked for TXU (the largest electricity company in Texas) back in
> the 1980s, our insurance deductible was $30 million.  We managed to nail
> it at least once during the eight years I worked there.
>
> https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/02/17/An-electrical-power-plant-disabled-by-an-explosion-and/1253540536400/
>
>
> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire.  One of the low
> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
> at 3,600 rpm.  The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
> the 350 MW generator to fail.  And then the fire started and was fed by
> the DC turbine lube oil pump with 10,000 gallons of lube oil for six hours.
>
At least you didn't fail small!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2/15/22 17:16, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/15/2022 5:00 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
>> On 2/15/22 12:59, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/15/2022 10:14 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:56:15 AM UTC-5, The Horny Goat
>>>> wrote:
>>
>> Stuff deleted
>>
>>>
>>> When I worked for TXU (the largest electricity company in Texas) back
>>> in the 1980s, our insurance deductible was $30 million.  We managed
>>> to nail it at least once during the eight years I worked there.
>>>
>>> https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/02/17/An-electrical-power-plant-disabled-by-an-explosion-and/1253540536400/
>>>
>>>
>>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire.  One of the low
>>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one
>>> blade at 3,600 rpm.  The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen
>>> seals on the 350 MW generator to fail.  And then the fire started and
>>> was fed by the DC turbine lube oil pump with 10,000 gallons of lube
>>> oil for six hours.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> I would NOT have wanted to work that fire. Way too explosive with
>> invisible flame (hydrogen!) and too much mythel-eythel bad stuff.
>
> They just stood there and watched it burn out.  The 5,000 ??? 10,000 ???
> ft3 of hydrogen burned quick.  The problem was the DC lube oil pump. The
> DC lube oil pump ran out of batteries after six hours (1,000 deep cycle
> 12 volt batteries).  All inaccessible due to the fire so the operators
> could not turn the DC circuit breaker off.  The fire was in a contained
> space, a 80 ft wide by 60 ft tall by 400+ ft long sheet metal building.
> I'll bet it hit 300 F in that building.  Not even a Scott Air Pack could
> take that.

Yeah, 300F is not too bad for short periods of time. I've been in rooms
where it was 200 to 300 but not for very long. As for the temp in the
building, it would be WAY over 300F. In just a "room and contents" fire,
it could be 150-200F at the floor (to start with) but 1000F+ on the
ceiling.

The straps on any of the air packs are good for much higher than 300F.
They are made of, or at least covered by, the same material as the
turnout gear. The face plate on the mask will fail in the area of 500+.
The tank will take quite a bit of heat, but I couldn't quickly come up
with a spec.

I agree that the smart thing to do is stand back and watch it burn, but
that burning oil is giving off bad stuff. So is all the stuff around it.

>
> Lynn

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)

On 2/14/2022 4:49 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> It's also worth noting that there's a lot of bad feelings between Musk and Biden
> these days, and the FAA and EPA know that harassing SpaceX won't get any
> White House pushback.

And Musk and Boca Chica residents.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/elon-musk-boca-chica-starbase-texas/

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:

> When I worked for TXU (the largest electricity company in Texas) back in
> the 1980s, our insurance deductible was $30 million. We managed to nail
> it at least once during the eight years I worked there.
>
> https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/02/17/An-electrical-power-plant-disabled-by-an-explosion-and/1253540536400/
>
> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
> the 350 MW generator to fail.

Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
some time, serving as ignition for whatever.

On 17/02/2022 06.53, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:

>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>
> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.

It's used for cooling. Detailed info at:
<https://metersolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Proton-Energy-systems.pdf>

--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at
<http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm>
Please read it before posting.

Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 17/02/2022 06.53, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>>
>> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
>> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
>> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.
>
> It's used for cooling. Detailed info at:
><https://metersolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Proton-Energy-systems.pdf>

Interesting. And it can also be used for rather rapid heating, if
mixed with oxygen :-)

In article <sum5al$fv7$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On 17/02/2022 06.53, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>
>>>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>>>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>>>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>>>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>>>
>>> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
>>> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
>>> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.
>>
>> It's used for cooling. Detailed info at:
>><https://metersolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Proton-Energy-systems.pdf>
>
>Interesting. And it can also be used for rather rapid heating, if
>mixed with oxygen :-)

And if mixed with oxygen in a two-to-one ratio, it will kill you if inhaled.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> schrieb:
> In article <sum5al$fv7$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>> On 17/02/2022 06.53, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>>>>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>>>>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>>>>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>>>>
>>>> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
>>>> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
>>>> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.
>>>
>>> It's used for cooling. Detailed info at:
>>><https://metersolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Proton-Energy-systems.pdf>
>>
>>Interesting. And it can also be used for rather rapid heating, if
>>mixed with oxygen :-)
>
> And if mixed with oxygen in a two-to-one ratio, it will kill you if inhaled.

If reacted to the dreaded dihydrogenmonoxide.

If unreacted... you might get a rather high voice, and _really_ hope
you are not wearing polyester clothes.

On 2/17/2022 6:53 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> When I worked for TXU (the largest electricity company in Texas) back in
>> the 1980s, our insurance deductible was $30 million. We managed to nail
>> it at least once during the eight years I worked there.
>>
>> https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/02/17/An-electrical-power-plant-disabled-by-an-explosion-and/1253540536400/
>>
>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>
> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.

Hydrogen has a high specific heat and a low windage loss. Perfect for
generators.

You start with air in the generator, purge with N2, and then fill with
H2. Usually 60 to 65 psig (4 to 4.4 atmg).

Lynn

On 2/17/2022 11:05 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <sum5al$fv7$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>> On 17/02/2022 06.53, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>
>>>>> We knew what caused the explosion and six hour fire. One of the low
>>>>> pressure steam turbines threw an 18 inch long last row minus one blade
>>>>> at 3,600 rpm. The subsequent vibrations caused the hydrogen seals on
>>>>> the 350 MW generator to fail.
>>>>
>>>> Why have hydrogen in a generator? It has an extremely low ignition
>>>> energy, and an invisible hydrogen flame can burn undetected for quite
>>>> some time, serving as ignition for whatever.
>>>
>>> It's used for cooling. Detailed info at:
>>> <https://metersolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Proton-Energy-systems.pdf>
>>
>> Interesting. And it can also be used for rather rapid heating, if
>> mixed with oxygen :-)
>
> And if mixed with oxygen in a two-to-one ratio, it will kill you if inhaled.

But at least that way you won't die squeaking.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.