Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
magicpunk setting. They fight crime!

Also at some point I expect them to bang.

This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
the protagonists are very likeable.

On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>
> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>
> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
> the protagonists are very likeable.

Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
characters heading straight for the big city the first
chance they get. And despite this having about the
same prologue.......

On 2022-02-14 4:30 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>
>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>
>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>
> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)

Never seen one depiction of Atlantis that had automobiles.

> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
> characters heading straight for the big city the first
> chance they get. And despite this having about the
> same prologue.......

Or Oz.

On 2022-02-14 7:39 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:30:07 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>>
>>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>>
>>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>>
>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
>> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
>> characters heading straight for the big city the first
>> chance they get. And despite this having about the
>> same prologue.......
>
> I don't think "Our Neighbor Totoro" or Zenna Henderson's "The People"
> series, or for that matter the whole Liaden universe qualify as "urban
> fantasy" either, despite all of them having magic coexisting with
> automobiles.

Liaden doesn't have magic and automobiles. It has spaceships and
psychic powers. Like "The People", it's science fiction. The catbus
doesn't count as an automobile.

In article <sufbe2$1irk$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2022-02-14 4:30 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>>
>>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>>
>>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>>
>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
>
>Never seen one depiction of Atlantis that had automobiles.

That was close--too close! He was white and shaking, but
unhurt, as he gathered in the billowing, fighting sheet and
rolled it, together with his harness, into a wad. He broke
open a tiny ampoule, and as the drops of liquid touched it
the stout fabric began to disappear. It did not burn; it
simply disintegrated and vanished. In less than a minute
there remained only a few steel snaps and rings, which the
Atlantean buried under a meticulously-replaced circle of
sod.
He was still on schedule. In less than three minutes the
signals would be on the air and he would know where he
was--unless the Norsks had succeeded in finding and eliminating
the whole Atlantean under-cover group. He pressed a stud
on a small instrument; held it down. A line burned green
across the dial--flared red--vanished.
"Damn!" he breathed, explosively. The strength of the signal
told him that he was within a mile or so of the
hide-out--first-class computation--but the red flash warned
him to keep away. Kinnexa--it had better be Kinnexa!--would
come to him.
How? By air? Along the road? Through the woods on foot? He
had no way of knowing--talking, even on a tight beam, was
out of the question. He made his way to the highway and
crouched behind a tree. Here she could come at him by any
route of the three. Again he waited, pressing infrequently
a stud of his sender.
A long, low-slung ground-car swung around the curve and
Phryges' binoculars were at his eyes. It was Kinnexa--or a
duplicate. At the thought he dropped his glasses and pulled
his guns--blaster in right hand, air-pistol in left. But
no, that wouldn't do. She'd be suspicious, too--she'd have
to be--and that car probably mounted heavy stuff. If he
stepped out ready for business she'd fry him, and quick.
Maybe not--she might have protection--but he couldn't take
the chance.
The car slowed; stopped. The girl got out, examined a front
tire, straightened up, and looked down the road, straight
at Phryges' hiding place. This time the binoculars brought
her up to little more than arm's length. Tall, blonde,
beautifully built; the slightly crooked left eyebrow. The
thread-line of gold betraying a one-tooth bridge and the
tiny scar on her upper lip, for both of which he had been
responsible--she always did insist on playing cops-and-robbers
with boys older and bigger than herself--it was Kinnexa!
Not even Norheim's science could imitate so perfectly every
personalizing characteristic of a girl he had known ever
since she was knee-high to a duck!
The girl slid back into her seat and the heavy car began
to move. Open-handed, Phryges stepped out into its way.
The car stopped.
"Turn around. Back up to me, hands behind you," she directed,
crisply.
The man, although surprised, obeyed. Not until he felt a
finger exploring the short hair at the back of his neck did
he realize what she was seeking--the almost imperceptible
scar marking the place where she bit him when she was seven
years old!
"Oh, Fry! It is you! Really you! Thank the gods! I've been
ashamed of that all my life, but now...."
He whirled and caught her as she slumped, but she did not
quite faint.
"Quick! Get in ... drive on ... not too fast!" she cautioned,
sharply, as the tires began to scream. "The speed limit
along here is seventy, and we can't be picked up."
"Easy it is, Kinny. But give! What's the score? Where's
Kolanides? Or rather, what happened to him?"
"Dead. So are the others, I think. They put him on a
psycho-bench and turned him inside out."
"But the blocks?"
"Didn't hold--over here they add such trimmings as skinning
and salt to the regular psycho routine. But none of them
knew anything about me, nor about how their reports were
picked up, or I'd have been dead, too. But it doesn't make
any difference, Fry--we're just one week too late."
"What do you mean, too late? Speed it up!" His tone was
rough, but the hand he placed on her arm was gentleness
itself.
"I'm telling you as fast as I can. I picked up his last
report day before yesterday. They have missiles just as big
and just as fast as ours--maybe more so--and they are going
to fire one at Atlantis tonight at exactly seven o'clock."
"Tonight! Holy gods!" The man's mind raced.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 2022-02-14 10:46 p.m., Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <sufbe2$1irk$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-14 4:30 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>>>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>>>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>>>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>>>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>>>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>>>
>>>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>>>
>>>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>>>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>>>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>>>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>>>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>>>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>>>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>>>
>>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
>>
>> Never seen one depiction of Atlantis that had automobiles.
>
> That was close--too close! He was white and shaking, but
> unhurt, as he gathered in the billowing, fighting sheet and
> rolled it, together with his harness, into a wad. He broke
> open a tiny ampoule, and as the drops of liquid touched it
> the stout fabric began to disappear. It did not burn; it
> simply disintegrated and vanished. In less than a minute
> there remained only a few steel snaps and rings, which the
> Atlantean buried under a meticulously-replaced circle of
> sod.
>
> He was still on schedule. In less than three minutes the
> signals would be on the air and he would know where he
> was--unless the Norsks had succeeded in finding and eliminating
> the whole Atlantean under-cover group. He pressed a stud
> on a small instrument; held it down. A line burned green
> across the dial--flared red--vanished.
>
> "Damn!" he breathed, explosively. The strength of the signal
> told him that he was within a mile or so of the
> hide-out--first-class computation--but the red flash warned
> him to keep away. Kinnexa--it had better be Kinnexa!--would
> come to him.
>
> How? By air? Along the road? Through the woods on foot? He
> had no way of knowing--talking, even on a tight beam, was
> out of the question. He made his way to the highway and
> crouched behind a tree. Here she could come at him by any
> route of the three. Again he waited, pressing infrequently
> a stud of his sender.
>
> A long, low-slung ground-car swung around the curve and
> Phryges' binoculars were at his eyes. It was Kinnexa--or a
> duplicate. At the thought he dropped his glasses and pulled
> his guns--blaster in right hand, air-pistol in left. But
> no, that wouldn't do. She'd be suspicious, too--she'd have
> to be--and that car probably mounted heavy stuff. If he
> stepped out ready for business she'd fry him, and quick.
> Maybe not--she might have protection--but he couldn't take
> the chance.
>
> The car slowed; stopped. The girl got out, examined a front
> tire, straightened up, and looked down the road, straight
> at Phryges' hiding place. This time the binoculars brought
> her up to little more than arm's length. Tall, blonde,
> beautifully built; the slightly crooked left eyebrow. The
> thread-line of gold betraying a one-tooth bridge and the
> tiny scar on her upper lip, for both of which he had been
> responsible--she always did insist on playing cops-and-robbers
> with boys older and bigger than herself--it was Kinnexa!
> Not even Norheim's science could imitate so perfectly every
> personalizing characteristic of a girl he had known ever
> since she was knee-high to a duck!
>
> The girl slid back into her seat and the heavy car began
> to move. Open-handed, Phryges stepped out into its way.
> The car stopped.
>
> "Turn around. Back up to me, hands behind you," she directed,
> crisply.
>
> The man, although surprised, obeyed. Not until he felt a
> finger exploring the short hair at the back of his neck did
> he realize what she was seeking--the almost imperceptible
> scar marking the place where she bit him when she was seven
> years old!
>
> "Oh, Fry! It is you! Really you! Thank the gods! I've been
> ashamed of that all my life, but now...."
>
> He whirled and caught her as she slumped, but she did not
> quite faint.
>
> "Quick! Get in ... drive on ... not too fast!" she cautioned,
> sharply, as the tires began to scream. "The speed limit
> along here is seventy, and we can't be picked up."
>
> "Easy it is, Kinny. But give! What's the score? Where's
> Kolanides? Or rather, what happened to him?"
>
> "Dead. So are the others, I think. They put him on a
> psycho-bench and turned him inside out."
>
> "But the blocks?"
>
> "Didn't hold--over here they add such trimmings as skinning
> and salt to the regular psycho routine. But none of them
> knew anything about me, nor about how their reports were
> picked up, or I'd have been dead, too. But it doesn't make
> any difference, Fry--we're just one week too late."
>
> "What do you mean, too late? Speed it up!" His tone was
> rough, but the hand he placed on her arm was gentleness
> itself.
>
> "I'm telling you as fast as I can. I picked up his last
> report day before yesterday. They have missiles just as big
> and just as fast as ours--maybe more so--and they are going
> to fire one at Atlantis tonight at exactly seven o'clock."
>
> "Tonight! Holy gods!" The man's mind raced.
>

But...that's science fiction. Pulpy science fiction but science fiction
never the less.

On 15/02/2022 15:53, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-02-14 7:39 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:30:07 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>>>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>>>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>>>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>>>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>>>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>>>
>>>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>>>
>>>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>>>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>>>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>>>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>>>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>>>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>>>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>>>
>>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy!  ;-)
>>> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
>>> characters heading straight for the big city the first
>>> chance they get.  And despite this having about the
>>> same prologue.......
>>
>> I don't think "Our Neighbor Totoro" or Zenna Henderson's "The People"
>> series, or for that matter the whole Liaden universe qualify as "urban
>> fantasy" either, despite all of them having magic coexisting with
>> automobiles.
>
> Liaden doesn't have magic and automobiles.  It has spaceships and
> psychic powers.  Like "The People", it's science fiction.  The catbus
> doesn't count as an automobile.

Liad - and Surebleak, and others - most certainly *do* have
automobiles. Clan Vertu run taxi services on at least Liad and Surebleak.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

On Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 04:50:16 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-02-14 4:30 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> >> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
> >> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
> >> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
> >> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
> >> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
> >> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
> >>
> >> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
> >>
> >> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
> >> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
> >> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
> >> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
> >> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
> >> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
> >> the protagonists are very likeable.
> >
> > Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
> Never seen one depiction of Atlantis that had automobiles.
> > Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
> > characters heading straight for the big city the first
> > chance they get. And despite this having about the
> > same prologue.......
> Or Oz.

Probably you did not see it but:
<https://jalopnik.com/autonomous-cars-were-predicted-in-a-wizard-of-oz-book-1844537468>
refers to 1941 sequel _The Scalawagons of Oz_.

This is the first I knew of it, too.

I'm familiar with <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(character)>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_fantasy>
calls for "supernatural elements in a 19th-century
to 21st-century (or equivalent) urban society"
and separates off "occult detective stories"
where "supernatural beings and sorcery [are]
unnatural and aberrant and a danger to the lives
of ordinary citizens" - are from out of town, may
sum up what they're getting at. I'm not sure about
that: I claimed _Frankenstein_ and _Dracula_ as
urban fantasy, but Frankenstein did his dirty work
as a university student, not a native of the city.
And Dracula came over from Europe!

On 14/02/2022 20.39, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:30:07 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
>> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
>> characters heading straight for the big city the first
>> chance they get. And despite this having about the
>> same prologue.......
>
> I don't think "Our Neighbor Totoro" or Zenna Henderson's "The People"
> series, or for that matter the whole Liaden universe qualify as "urban
> fantasy" either, despite all of them having magic coexisting with
> automobiles.

Henderon's people don't use magic. They have various psi powers.

--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 11:53:09 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-02-14 7:39 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:30:07 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> > <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
> >>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
> >>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
> >>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
> >>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
> >>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
> >>>
> >>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
> >>>
> >>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
> >>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
> >>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
> >>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
> >>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
> >>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
> >>> the protagonists are very likeable.
> >>
> >> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
> >> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
> >> characters heading straight for the big city the first
> >> chance they get. And despite this having about the
> >> same prologue.......
> >
> > I don't think "Our Neighbor Totoro" or Zenna Henderson's "The People"
> > series, or for that matter the whole Liaden universe qualify as "urban
> > fantasy" either, despite all of them having magic coexisting with
> > automobiles.
> Liaden doesn't have magic and automobiles. It has spaceships and
> psychic powers. Like "The People", it's science fiction. The catbus
> doesn't count as an automobile.

Regular cars exist in 'Our neighbor Totoro' - that's how the family
arrives at the house at the start.

However, it utterly fails on the 'urban' test. The whole 'story' [1] is about
two young girls moving out the deep country with their parents, and
discovering the magic that exists where the adults aren't looking.

pt

[1]: "No plot. No central character. No antagonist. No defined purpose
for side characters. No threat. No three acts. No jokes. No punchlines.
No explanations. No internal references. No catch phrases. No political
polemical voice. No melodrama. No lessons. No beginning. No end.
One of the best movies ever made."
- David Jenkins

On Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 05:52:22 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-02-14 10:46 p.m., Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > "I'm telling you as fast as I can. I picked up his last
> > report day before yesterday. They have missiles just as big
> > and just as fast as ours--maybe more so--and they are going
> > to fire one at Atlantis tonight at exactly seven o'clock."
> >
> > "Tonight! Holy gods!" The man's mind raced.
> >
> But...that's science fiction. Pulpy science fiction but science fiction
> never the less.

_Triplanetary_ by E. E. Smith?

I think this isn't the discussion you wanted to start. ;-)
From descriptions, _Magic and the Shinigami Detective_
counts as "portal fantasy" where a character from
our world - usually - steps or falls into another,
"secondary" world.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy> defines
"urban fantasy" as "set in a city", but the page for
"urban fantasy" refers to a modern world
"urban society", so "The People" may qualify
because those stories are set in rural America and
cities exist, but Minas Tirith is excluded.

"Intrusion fantasy" is where "the fantastic intrudes
on reality", examples given being _Dracula_ and
_Mary Poppins_.

As I said, Dracula is from out of town, but if he stays -
as he intends - then I think at some point he becomes
urban fantasy, if /being/ in actual towns in England
for a lot of the action doesn't count.

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 6:18:46 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 15 February 2022 at 04:50:16 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2022-02-14 4:30 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > > On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
> > >> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
> > >> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
> > >> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
> > >> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
> > >> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
> > >> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
> > >>
> > >> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
> > >>
> > >> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
> > >> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
> > >> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
> > >> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
> > >> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
> > >> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
> > >> the protagonists are very likeable.
> > >
> > > Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy! ;-)
> > Never seen one depiction of Atlantis that had automobiles.
> > > Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
> > > characters heading straight for the big city the first
> > > chance they get. And despite this having about the
> > > same prologue.......
> > Or Oz.
> Probably you did not see it but:
> <https://jalopnik.com/autonomous-cars-were-predicted-in-a-wizard-of-oz-book-1844537468>
> refers to 1941 sequel _The Scalawagons of Oz_.
>
> This is the first I knew of it, too.
>
> I'm familiar with <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(character)>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_fantasy>
> calls for "supernatural elements in a 19th-century
> to 21st-century (or equivalent) urban society"
> and separates off "occult detective stories"
> where "supernatural beings and sorcery [are]
> unnatural and aberrant and a danger to the lives
> of ordinary citizens" - are from out of town, may
> sum up what they're getting at. I'm not sure about
> that: I claimed _Frankenstein_ and _Dracula_ as
> urban fantasy, but Frankenstein did his dirty work
> as a university student, not a native of the city.
> And Dracula came over from Europe!

It would seem that Robert Heinlein's _Magic Inc._ and Poul Anderson's
_Operation Chaos_ both qualify as urban fantasy. These are relatively
unusual in that they are set in worlds where the supernatural has become
an accepted part of modern life.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On 2022-02-15 6:53 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 17:17:52 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/2022 15:53, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-14 7:39 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:30:07 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, 14 February 2022 at 21:06:44 UTC, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> Edwards is one of those strange people who, having been abducted to an
>>>>>> alien world, for some some reason feels compelled to use far more pop
>>>>>> culture references than a normal person would even when speaking to
>>>>>> people who would get them. Davenforth is an expert in detecting the
>>>>>> magic frequently used to commit crimes in his vaguely Edwardian
>>>>>> magicpunk setting. They fight crime!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also at some point I expect them to bang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an OK borderline urban fantasy series (definition of urban
>>>>>> fantasy-has magic spells and automobiles) although it has irritating
>>>>>> verisimilitude lapses. No, they're not going to give an illiterate
>>>>>> woman a job as a police detective even if she's an experienced criminal
>>>>>> investigator in her homeland. And these are supposed to be Davenforth's
>>>>>> case files, but contain way too much extraneous stuff to the case. But
>>>>>> the protagonists are very likeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Call me picky but Atlantis is /not/ urban fantasy!  ;-)
>>>>> Any more than _The Wizard of Oz_ is, despite the
>>>>> characters heading straight for the big city the first
>>>>> chance they get.  And despite this having about the
>>>>> same prologue.......
>>>>
>>>> I don't think "Our Neighbor Totoro" or Zenna Henderson's "The People"
>>>> series, or for that matter the whole Liaden universe qualify as "urban
>>>> fantasy" either, despite all of them having magic coexisting with
>>>> automobiles.
>>>
>>> Liaden doesn't have magic and automobiles.  It has spaceships and
>>> psychic powers.  Like "The People", it's science fiction.  The catbus
>>> doesn't count as an automobile.
>
> "psychic powers" absent a framework of psionic technology is magic.

What it actually is, is discredited pseudoscience. There's a lot of
that in science fiction. I'm not going to drum Star Trek, Slan, and the
Chrysalids out of science fiction just because psionics are now
thoroughly discredited.

> And the dramliz cross interstellar space on their naked bottoms. Not
> to mention being called "wizards" to their faces and being proud of
> it. Further, there are several incidents in which automobiles are
> specifically mentioned.
>
> "The people" the same.
>
> In Totoro we see two different motor vehicles in the first four
> minutes, one a pickup truck or the Japanese equivalent thereof, and
> one a very conventional bus.
>
>
>> Liad - and Surebleak, and others - most certainly *do* have
>> automobiles. Clan Vertu run taxi services on at least Liad and Surebleak.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 10:38:58 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:48:34 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2022-02-15 6:53 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> <snippo>
> >>
> >> "psychic powers" absent a framework of psionic technology is magic.
> >
> >What it actually is, is discredited pseudoscience. There's a lot of
> >that in science fiction. I'm not going to drum Star Trek, Slan, and the
> >Chrysalids out of science fiction just because psionics are now
> >thoroughly discredited.
> While not disagreeing with your statement, I wonder if it shouldn't
> have been phrased differently.
>
> It seems to me to imply that, either currently or at some time in the
> past, there was such a thing as "credited psionics" -- or, at least,
> of psionics that were not /thoroughly/ discredited. AFAIK, all there
> /ever/ was was a lot of arm-waving and deception, including
> self-deception.
>
> Indeed, it appears to imply that there are pseudosciences that are not
> discredited, as psionics is one that is.

In the 1950s there was a Dr. Rhine at Duke University who was doing serious
research on ESP. People seemed to respect his methodology even if they
were skeptical about the existence of the phenomenon. Rhine was often
referenced in science fiction of the time. Perhaps he has been since
discredited.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On 21/02/2022 11.36, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 10:38:58 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:48:34 -0700, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-15 6:53 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:

>>>> "psychic powers" absent a framework of psionic technology is magic.
>>>
>>> What it actually is, is discredited pseudoscience. There's a lot of
>>> that in science fiction. I'm not going to drum Star Trek, Slan, and the
>>> Chrysalids out of science fiction just because psionics are now
>>> thoroughly discredited.
>> While not disagreeing with your statement, I wonder if it shouldn't
>> have been phrased differently.
>>
>> It seems to me to imply that, either currently or at some time in the
>> past, there was such a thing as "credited psionics" -- or, at least,
>> of psionics that were not /thoroughly/ discredited. AFAIK, all there
>> /ever/ was was a lot of arm-waving and deception, including
>> self-deception.
>>
>> Indeed, it appears to imply that there are pseudosciences that are not
>> discredited, as psionics is one that is.
>
> In the 1950s there was a Dr. Rhine at Duke University who was doing serious
> research on ESP.

1930s, actually.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Banks_Rhine#ESP_research>

> were skeptical about the existence of the phenomenon. Rhine was often
> referenced in science fiction of the time. Perhaps he has been since
> discredited.

The discrediting also began in the 1930s. However, the inveterate fad-follower,
John W. Campbell, Jr., ignored the discrediting. His belief in ESP made it
an acceptable SF trope. This led to folks like RAH including it in stories
intended for sale to him.

One has to wonder if JWC would now support Electric Universe or Low Energy
Nuclear Reactions (a re-branding of cold fusion).

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

In article <sv0l1i$8o2$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 21/02/2022 11.36, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 10:38:58 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:48:34 -0700, David Johnston
>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-15 6:53 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>>>> "psychic powers" absent a framework of psionic technology is magic.
>>>>
>>>> What it actually is, is discredited pseudoscience. There's a lot of
>>>> that in science fiction. I'm not going to drum Star Trek, Slan, and the
>>>> Chrysalids out of science fiction just because psionics are now
>>>> thoroughly discredited.
>>> While not disagreeing with your statement, I wonder if it shouldn't
>>> have been phrased differently.
>>>
>>> It seems to me to imply that, either currently or at some time in the
>>> past, there was such a thing as "credited psionics" -- or, at least,
>>> of psionics that were not /thoroughly/ discredited. AFAIK, all there
>>> /ever/ was was a lot of arm-waving and deception, including
>>> self-deception.
>>>
>>> Indeed, it appears to imply that there are pseudosciences that are not
>>> discredited, as psionics is one that is.
>>
>> In the 1950s there was a Dr. Rhine at Duke University who was doing serious
>> research on ESP.
>
>1930s, actually.
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Banks_Rhine#ESP_research>
>
>> were skeptical about the existence of the phenomenon. Rhine was often
>> referenced in science fiction of the time. Perhaps he has been since
>> discredited.
>
>The discrediting also began in the 1930s. However, the inveterate fad-follower,
>John W. Campbell, Jr., ignored the discrediting. His belief in ESP made it
>an acceptable SF trope. This led to folks like RAH including it in stories
>intended for sale to him.
>
>One has to wonder if JWC would now support Electric Universe or Low Energy
>Nuclear Reactions (a re-branding of cold fusion).
>

Millions support homeopathy & astrology..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 2/21/2022 10:31 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <sv0l1i$8o2$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21/02/2022 11.36, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 10:38:58 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:48:34 -0700, David Johnston
>>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-02-15 6:53 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>>>>> "psychic powers" absent a framework of psionic technology is magic.
>>>>>
>>>>> What it actually is, is discredited pseudoscience. There's a lot of
>>>>> that in science fiction. I'm not going to drum Star Trek, Slan, and the
>>>>> Chrysalids out of science fiction just because psionics are now
>>>>> thoroughly discredited.
>>>> While not disagreeing with your statement, I wonder if it shouldn't
>>>> have been phrased differently.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me to imply that, either currently or at some time in the
>>>> past, there was such a thing as "credited psionics" -- or, at least,
>>>> of psionics that were not /thoroughly/ discredited. AFAIK, all there
>>>> /ever/ was was a lot of arm-waving and deception, including
>>>> self-deception.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, it appears to imply that there are pseudosciences that are not
>>>> discredited, as psionics is one that is.
>>>
>>> In the 1950s there was a Dr. Rhine at Duke University who was doing serious
>>> research on ESP.
>>
>> 1930s, actually.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Banks_Rhine#ESP_research>
>>
>>> were skeptical about the existence of the phenomenon. Rhine was often
>>> referenced in science fiction of the time. Perhaps he has been since
>>> discredited.
>>
>> The discrediting also began in the 1930s. However, the inveterate fad-follower,
>> John W. Campbell, Jr., ignored the discrediting. His belief in ESP made it
>> an acceptable SF trope. This led to folks like RAH including it in stories
>> intended for sale to him.
>>
>> One has to wonder if JWC would now support Electric Universe or Low Energy
>> Nuclear Reactions (a re-branding of cold fusion).
>
> Millions support homeopathy & astrology..

Think about how dumb the average person is and then the fact that by
definition half the population has to be dumber than _that_. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.