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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

SubjectAuthor
* Elba of the BonapartesLouis Epstein
+- Re: Elba of the BonapartesGraham Truesdale
`* Re: Elba of the BonapartesSolomonW
 `* Re: Elba of the BonapartesSolomonW
  `* Re: Elba of the BonapartesSolomonW
   `* Re: Elba of the BonapartesThe Horny Goat
    `- Re: Elba of the BonapartesSolomonW

1
Elba of the Bonapartes

<smn19a$1oc$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Elba of the Bonapartes
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 00:35:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Sat, 13 Nov 2021 00:35 UTC

What if Napoleon had decided to stay the monarch of tiny Elba
and not attempted to regain control of France?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

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Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Sat, 13 Nov 2021 12:56 UTC

On Saturday, November 13, 2021 at 12:35:55 AM UTC, Louis Epstein wrote:
> What if Napoleon had decided to stay the monarch of tiny Elba
> and not attempted to regain control of France?
>
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Fontainebleau_(1814)
"ART. III. The island of Elba, adopted by his Majesty the Emperor Napoleon, for the place of his residence, shall form, during his life, a separate principality, which shall be possessed by him in all sovereignty and property..

ART. V. The Duchies of Parma, of Placentia, and of Guastalla shall be given, in all property and sovereignty, to her Majesty the Empress Marie-Louise. They shall pass to her son and to his descendants in direct line. The prince her son shall take, from this time, the title of Prince of Parma, of Placentia, and of Guastalla."

For a start, Elba would have ceased to be Bonaparte territory on Napoleon's death. As their son predeceased his mother, the three duchies would presumably have passed out of the hands of the Bonapartes on her death, as they did in OTL.

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:34:30 +1100
Organization: Truth with honesty
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 by: SolomonW - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 07:34 UTC

On Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:51 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <smn19a$1oc$1@reader1.panix.com>, le@top.put.com (Louis
> Epstein) wrote:
>
>> What if Napoleon had decided to stay the monarch of tiny Elba
>> and not attempted to regain control of France?
>
> He'd have run out of money in a few more months as ruler of Elba. He was
> spending far more than his income.
>
> John

What was the reason for his high spending?

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:34:49 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:34 UTC

On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <1uzc5tlo2wjs2.ku8028wap6mr$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> SolomonW@citi.com (SolomonW) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:51 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman
>> wrote:
>>> He'd have run out of money in a few more months as ruler of Elba.
>>> He was spending far more than his income.
>> What was the reason for his high spending?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Elba tells us that he
> maintained a 1,000 man military, which cost half the island's income.
> That largely consisted of his pension of two million francs per year. The
> army and navy were far too small to do any good if Britain or France
> decided to attack, but far too large for him to support.
>
> He also maintained his own court and an administrative system that were
> over-large, engaged in public works, set up public services, and
> otherwise demonstrated that he hadn't adjusted to the smaller size of his
> domain.
>
> John

The "stipend of two million francs per year to be paid by France" was not
enough to pay the shortfall?

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

<1ksjs4i65glat.1vimlbo0c6suu.dlg@40tude.net>

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:37:42 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 04:37 UTC

On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:11 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <zl2vrbkm49af.2jeqyfkp3qd3.dlg@40tude.net>, SolomonW@citi.com
> (SolomonW) wrote:
>
>> The "stipend of two million francs per year to be paid by France"
>> was not enough to pay the shortfall?
>
> Apparently not. Unfortunately, I am away from my books, so can't quote my
> source.
>
> John

In anycase, Napoleon is stuck with a choice of reducing his statue even
further or returning.

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:21 UTC

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:37:42 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

>In anycase, Napoleon is stuck with a choice of reducing his statue even
>further or returning.

Which I don't know whether that was the wish of the French government
but from the British point of view they knew (a) any return of
Napoleon would be faced with a huge coalition (and don't forget that
even if Napoleon had won at Waterloo with zero casualties he was still
facing another battle with 200000+ Austrians and Russians within 3-4
weeks - in 1815 it was definitely "The Russians are coming, the
Russians are coming"!) and (b) an (almost certain) win vs Napoleon
would give Britain completely a free hand to do whatever they wanted
with him (which wasn't the case in 1814) and with their allies redraw
Europe to their liking. St Helena was Britain's suggestion at the
peace conference and Austria, Prussia and Russia all agreed that a
Bonapartist fleet to rescue him was far more unlikely than a location
in continental Europe. Given most of Europe still believed in the
divine right of kings and that Napoleon HAD been crowned if not BY the
Pope in his presence so hanging him was a non starter.

I see no plausible scenario involving an 1815 execution of Napoleon
given a POD after Waterloo. Had he taken a stray shell at Waterloo it
would be an interesting scenario though not one I believe has ever
been discussed on SHWI/AHWI. (Though I suspect very convenient for the
Allies! Note that the ONE concession Napoleon demanded after Waterloo
as the price of his surrender was the safety of his wife and son
though he was never allowed to see them. This was an obvious one as
the Emperor of Austria had no intention of harming his daughter)

I am unconvinced of the theory that he was poisoned on St Helena but
would not rule it out. Certainly the British had no incentive to give
him the medical care typical at that time of upper class Brits or
royalty.

Re: Elba of the Bonapartes

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Elba of the Bonapartes
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 21:47:23 +1100
Organization: Truth with honesty
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 by: SolomonW - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:47 UTC

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:21:34 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:37:42 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>In anycase, Napoleon is stuck with a choice of reducing his statue even
>>further or returning.
>
> Which I don't know whether that was the wish of the French government
> but from the British point of view they knew (a) any return of
> Napoleon would be faced with a huge coalition (and don't forget that
> even if Napoleon had won at Waterloo with zero casualties he was still
> facing another battle with 200000+ Austrians and Russians within 3-4
> weeks - in 1815 it was definitely "The Russians are coming, the
> Russians are coming"!) and (b) an (almost certain) win vs Napoleon
> would give Britain completely a free hand to do whatever they wanted
> with him (which wasn't the case in 1814) and with their allies redraw
> Europe to their liking.

Plus the French people did not want any more wars.

<..>

>
> I am unconvinced of the theory that he was poisoned on St Helena but
> would not rule it out. Certainly the British had no incentive to give
> him the medical care typical at that time of upper class Brits or
> royalty.

He had a few doctors. Most seem to have had illustrious careers in
medicine, but the problem was he had uncurable cancer, and it appears to
have been in his family.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070116131630.htm

"Only 20 percent of patients with Stage IIIA gastric cancer survive five
years if treated with modern surgery and chemotherapy."

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