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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

SubjectAuthor
* Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
+- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJack Bohn
+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politicspete...@gmail.com
|| +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsScott Lurndal
|| +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| ||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| || +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| || `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| ||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| || +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
|| || `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| ||  +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJames Nicoll
|| ||  |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
|| ||  | `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| ||  `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJerry Brown
|| |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
|| | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDavid Johnston
|| |   +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |   |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsRobert Carnegie
|| |   `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |    `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsTitus G
|| |     |  `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
|| |     +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAlan
|| |     ||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThe Horny Goat
|| |     || `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAlan
|| |     ||  `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThe Horny Goat
|| |     |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThe Horny Goat
|| |     +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsRobert Carnegie
|| |     |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |  +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |   `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |    `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |     `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |      +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |      |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |      `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       || +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThe Horny Goat
|| |     |       || `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||  |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  ||`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||  |+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsScott Lurndal
|| |     |       ||  ||`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  || `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJay E. Morris
|| |     |       ||  ||  +- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsScott Lurndal
|| |     |       ||  ||  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  ||   `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| |     |       ||  | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||  |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
|| |     |       ||  |   `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| |     |       ||  |    `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsMichael F. Stemper
|| |     |       ||  |     `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| |     |       ||  +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsKevrob
|| |     |       ||  | +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| |     |       ||  | |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  | | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
|| |     |       ||  | |  +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||  | |  |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  | |  | +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||  | |  | |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  | |  | `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||  | |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  | |   `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDavid Johnston
|| |     |       ||  | |    `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  | `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsPaul S Person
|| |     |       ||  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||   +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   |+- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||   |+- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |       ||   |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||   | +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   | |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||   | | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   | |  +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||   | |  |`* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   | |  | `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|| |     |       ||   | |  |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   | |  |   +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politicspete...@gmail.com
|| |     |       ||   | |  |   |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| |     |       ||   | |  |   `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
|| |     |       ||   | |  `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||   | |   `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDimensional Traveler
|| |     |       ||   | |    `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsJ. Clarke
|| |     |       ||   | `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsThomas Koenig
|| |     |       ||   `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDavid Johnston
|| |     |       |`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
|| |     |       `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
|| |     `- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
|| +* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
|| `* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsDavid Johnston
|`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsNinapenda Jibini
+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsRobert Carnegie
+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsAndrew McDowell
+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc
+* Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsLynn McGuire
`- Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of PoliticsQuadibloc

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Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

<041b2d26-9313-419a-9d09-1b121b1b293cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:40 UTC

It is not surprising that an author of mil-SF would be an ardent lover of liberty and a patriotic American.
Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories... only makes sense.

And now, as readers familiar with David Weber's Honor Harrington _oeuvre_ are no doubt expecting, for the oopsie.
One part of the backstory for Honor Harrington's world is that the Earth underwent a limited, but still disastrous, nuclear exchange called the Final War.
This led to nuclear detonations in several American cities, including Chicago, and thus to a decline in the power of the United States on Earth.
The cause of this war was the aggressive designs of the dictatorial ruler of the Ukraine, which brought him into conflict both with the United States and with a Russia that was also on the side of freedom.
Current events, of course, are not of the character that makes Russia look good, and the Ukraine look bad.
So?
Lots of science-fiction stories have been made obsolete by events which took place after they were written. This is a natural hazard of writing about the future.
I cannot really in good conscience urge David Weber to take his Honor Harrington series and retcon it as a show of support for the struggle of the Ukrainian people.
Instead, one could view this as a lesson in being overly gratuitous in including references to contemporary politics in science fiction about the future.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
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 by: Jack Bohn - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:54 UTC

Quadibloc wrote:
>
> And now, as readers familiar with David Weber's Honor Harrington _oeuvre_ are no doubt expecting, for the oopsie.
> One part of the backstory for Honor Harrington's world is that the Earth underwent a limited, but still disastrous, nuclear exchange called the Final War.
> This led to nuclear detonations in several American cities, including Chicago, and thus to a decline in the power of the United States on Earth.
> The cause of this war was the aggressive designs of the dictatorial ruler of the Ukraine, which brought him into conflict both with the United States and with a Russia that was also on the side of freedom.
> Current events, of course, are not of the character that makes Russia look good, and the Ukraine look bad.
> So?

So, there's still a lot of history between now and when we become a spacefaring culture.

--
-Jack

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:08 UTC

According to fearless American news commentator Tucker Carlson, Zelensky is indeed
madman trying to plunge world into war!
As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is the only American news anchor
daring to report on this story!
Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only planning to defy the
norms of international conduct by using plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the
American government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the U.S.
taxpayer!

Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream news media does not
cover these things because... they aren't happening.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

<4a867227-38d7-4f73-801b-aae26d83a2den@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:11 UTC

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> According to fearless American news commentator Tucker Carlson, Zelensky is indeed
> madman trying to plunge world into war!
> As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is the only American news anchor
> daring to report on this story!
> Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
> And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only planning to defy the
> norms of international conduct by using plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the
> American government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the U.S.
> taxpayer!
>
> Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream news media does not
> cover these things because... they aren't happening.

Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker Carlson's
hijinks:

https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-misinformation-bioweapons-biolab/

Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare war on Russia so that
this nut can finally get what he deserves, and be charged with treason.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 05:06 UTC

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker Carlson, Zelensky is indeed
> > madman trying to plunge world into war!
> > As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is the only American news anchor
> > daring to report on this story!
> > Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
> > And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only planning to defy the
> > norms of international conduct by using plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the
> > American government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the U.S.
> > taxpayer!
> >
> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream news media does not
> > cover these things because... they aren't happening.
> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker Carlson's
> hijinks:
>
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-misinformation-bioweapons-biolab/
>
> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare war on Russia so that
> this nut can finally get what he deserves, and be charged with treason.

I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.

Pt

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:56 UTC

On Sunday, 6 March 2022 at 13:40:04 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> It is not surprising that an author of mil-SF would be an ardent lover of liberty and a patriotic American.
> Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories... only makes sense.
>
> And now, as readers familiar with David Weber's Honor Harrington _oeuvre_ are no doubt expecting, for the oopsie.
> One part of the backstory for Honor Harrington's world is that the Earth underwent a limited, but still disastrous, nuclear exchange called the Final War.
> This led to nuclear detonations in several American cities, including Chicago, and thus to a decline in the power of the United States on Earth.
> The cause of this war was the aggressive designs of the dictatorial ruler of the Ukraine, which brought him into conflict both with the United States and with a Russia that was also on the side of freedom.
> Current events, of course, are not of the character that makes Russia look good, and the Ukraine look bad.
> So?
> Lots of science-fiction stories have been made obsolete by events which took place after they were written. This is a natural hazard of writing about the future.
> I cannot really in good conscience urge David Weber to take his Honor Harrington series and retcon it as a show of support for the struggle of the Ukrainian people.
> Instead, one could view this as a lesson in being overly gratuitous in including references to contemporary politics in science fiction about the future.

Does an author write for posterity or for money?

Russia, or the Soviet Union, "lost" Ukraine in 1991.
I suppose no one knew what would happen immediately
following, which is when _On Basilisk Station_ came out.

It's also conceivable that Weber libelled Ukraine intentionally
and/or for Russian money. Up front, or in better sales
in translation.

What did happen, as decided in 1994, is that Ukraine
disarmed the Soviet nuclear weapons it held, so the
story was invalid since then. If Weber wrote that part
of the story in 1994 or later - whoops?

Or perhaps he figured that Ukraine wouldn't be insulted
by alleged future misuse of weapons that don't exist.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 15:34 UTC

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:

>I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
>foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.

I would claim the people that employ him, in order to profit financially,
are even worse examples of human beings.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 15:54 UTC

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:06:34 PM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
> foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.

1) In the U.S. legal system, normally they would need some real evidence.

2) Vladimir Putin has him beat by a mile, for one example.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:01 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:56:19 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> It's also conceivable that Weber libelled Ukraine intentionally
> and/or for Russian money. Up front, or in better sales
> in translation.

I certainly wouldn't characterize the situation that way.

That he was excited about Yeltsin's promise for Russia - and he wrote
before Putin took over, and thus also before the Orange Revolution, so
a corrupt ruler from the Soviet period was likely still in the Ukraine -
is sufficient cause for him to have imagined the situation existing then
would persist into the future.

He was writing fiction. It isn't a question of slandering Ukraine, it's
simply a question of having failed to anticipate future events. Which is
not a fault, but an inevitability. The fault, rather, lies in his choice to use
fiction about the distant future to make points about present-day
politics, thereby creating a great danger of being overtaken by events.

But then, no one was anticipating that the "end of history" would be a
false dawn.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:08 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:56:19 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Or perhaps he figured that Ukraine wouldn't be insulted
> by alleged future misuse of weapons that don't exist.

My concern isn't about an insult to the honor of the heroic
Ukrainian people. It's just that now this part of the Honor
Harrington saga will... feel odd... to new readers, and not
properly reflect David Weber's own personal love of freedom
which is otherwise on conspicuous display in that series.

Perhaps the appropriate retcon is to regard Putin as a
temporary aberration, and have _Transnistria_ instead of
Ukraine (or Russia) start the Final War. That avoids having
to rename Yeltsin to Zelinsky throughout the books.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:01 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 10:13:53 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> Among others, including one Congresscritter who appears to be spouting
> the same Russian propaganda and, of course, Donald Trump, whose
> constant praise of Putin over the years is very obvious and on record.

I just saw a news item about how Republican Representative Madison
Cawthorn called Zelensky a "thug", and the Ukrainian government
"incredibly evil". However, he later backtracked, and said he was against
the Russian invasion, and was only complaining about Zelensky using
lies and emotional manipulation to draw the U.S. into the war.

But one of the reasons for calling the Ukrainian government "incredibly
evil" was that they were "pushing woke ideologies". So it's evil to
awaken people to the situation of disadvantaged minorities.

This is in the "You can't make this stuff up" department.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
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 by: Robert Woodward - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:14 UTC

In article <10cb89ab-07dd-496a-b248-17e7921a7619n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 6 March 2022 at 13:40:04 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> > It is not surprising that an author of mil-SF would be an ardent lover of
> > liberty and a patriotic American.
> > Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy under
> > Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great man by
> > having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories... only
> > makes sense.
> >
> > And now, as readers familiar with David Weber's Honor Harrington _oeuvre_
> > are no doubt expecting, for the oopsie.
> > One part of the backstory for Honor Harrington's world is that the Earth
> > underwent a limited, but still disastrous, nuclear exchange called the
> > Final War.
> > This led to nuclear detonations in several American cities, including
> > Chicago, and thus to a decline in the power of the United States on Earth.
> > The cause of this war was the aggressive designs of the dictatorial ruler
> > of the Ukraine, which brought him into conflict both with the United States
> > and with a Russia that was also on the side of freedom.
> > Current events, of course, are not of the character that makes Russia look
> > good, and the Ukraine look bad.
> > So?
> > Lots of science-fiction stories have been made obsolete by events which
> > took place after they were written. This is a natural hazard of writing
> > about the future.
> > I cannot really in good conscience urge David Weber to take his Honor
> > Harrington series and retcon it as a show of support for the struggle of
> > the Ukrainian people.
> > Instead, one could view this as a lesson in being overly gratuitous in
> > including references to contemporary politics in science fiction about the
> > future.
>
> Does an author write for posterity or for money?
>
> Russia, or the Soviet Union, "lost" Ukraine in 1991.
> I suppose no one knew what would happen immediately
> following, which is when _On Basilisk Station_ came out.
>
> It's also conceivable that Weber libelled Ukraine intentionally
> and/or for Russian money. Up front, or in better sales
> in translation.

I wish to point out that Earth's Final War in the Honorverse took place
c. 3000 CE. It also was far more extensive than a mere Nuclear Exchange.
BTW, the first mention of the Final War was in _Field of Dishonor_ (the
4th Honor Harrington novel, published in 1994), where gene-engineered
diseases and supersoldiers were mentioned, but not nuclear weapons.
Ukraine was mentioned as the start of active war in an even later work.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:15:45 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:15 UTC

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:

> I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
> foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.

There is one aspect to this war which has found little mention
in the Western media, but which plays a significant role in
Russia's motivations - values.

It can be seen in the last press conference by Russian foreign
minister Lavrov, after the negotiations with his Ukranian
counterpart in Turkey. The said, if the subtitles are to be
believed, that the West could not be trusted because they would
try to impose their values on Russia.

What values are these supposed to be? Putin, in an earlier speech,
accused the west of destroying the traditional family, and of
trying to impose this on Russia - through NGO, LGBT* rights,
whatever, and that he would resist this. It is therefore not
surprising that somebody who has a conservative worldview would
find similarities there.

What is happening in Ukraine right now can, with some justification,
be called a culture war.

To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
in real life, in his novel the Communists won.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:41:22 GMT
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:41 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:1983ae51-9caf-4de4-8d04-d95580c73b20n@googlegroups.com:

> According to fearless American news commentator Tucker Carlson,
> Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge world into war!
> As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is the only
> American news anchor daring to report on this story!
> Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
> And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only
> planning to defy the norms of international conduct by using
> plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the American
> government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the
> U.S. taxpayer!
>
> Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream news
> media does not cover these things because... they aren't
> happening.
>
There is a bio lab there. As there is in every country that makes
vaccines of any kind.

Nothing to see here, move along.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:41 UTC

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a3298361-abc5-458d-98fc-57c44c16b57dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc
> wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc
>> wrote:
>> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker
>> > Carlson, Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge world
>> > into war! As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is
>> > the only American news anchor daring to report on this story!
>> > Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
>> > And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only
>> > planning to defy the norms of international conduct by using
>> > plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the American
>> > government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the
>> > U.S. taxpayer!
>> >
>> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream
>> > news media does not cover these things because... they aren't
>> > happening.
>> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker
>> Carlson's hijinks:
>>
>> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-mis
>> information-bioweapons-biolab/
>>
>> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare war
>> on Russia so that this nut can finally get what he deserves,
>> and be charged with treason.
>
> I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to
> register as a Russian foreign agent. He's about the worst
> example of a human being I'm aware of.
>
Worse than Trump? Really?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:42 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:42:03 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:a3298361-abc5-458d...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc
> > wrote:
> >> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc
> >> wrote:
> >> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker
> >> > Carlson, Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge world
> >> > into war! As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he is
> >> > the only American news anchor daring to report on this story!
> >> > Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in the Ukraine!
> >> > And what's worse is that this scoundrel Zelensky is not only
> >> > planning to defy the norms of international conduct by using
> >> > plague germs in warfare... but he tricked the American
> >> > government into funding this mad scheme at the expense of the
> >> > U.S. taxpayer!
> >> >
> >> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the mainstream
> >> > news media does not cover these things because... they aren't
> >> > happening.
> >> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker
> >> Carlson's hijinks:
> >>
> >> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-mis
> >> information-bioweapons-biolab/
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare war
> >> on Russia so that this nut can finally get what he deserves,
> >> and be charged with treason.
> >
> > I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to
> > register as a Russian foreign agent. He's about the worst
> > example of a human being I'm aware of.
> >
> Worse than Trump? Really?

You have a point. Putin too.

If I had to defend the position, Putin knows what he's doing,
but his values and priorities are just alien, due to the environment
he grew up in. Trump seems to be lacking in self awareness and
self control, and is a massive narcissist. Conversely, Tucker seems
aware of what he's doing, is perfectly aware that he's lying to his
audience, and has decided he doesn't care that he's turning America
to shit, as long he is well paid.

Putin knows, but feels justified.
Trump doesn't know, and doesn't understand why he's being criticized.
Tucker knows, and knows it's wrong, but has decided he doesn't care,
as long as he's paid.

Somehow that seems more wrong.

Pt

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 00:51 UTC

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a6537fba-da06-424e-bb5c-be659053d3a1n@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:42:03 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda Jibini
> wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:a3298361-abc5-458d...@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker
>> >> > Carlson, Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge world
>> >> > into war! As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he
>> >> > is the only American news anchor daring to report on this
>> >> > story! Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in
>> >> > the Ukraine! And what's worse is that this scoundrel
>> >> > Zelensky is not only planning to defy the norms of
>> >> > international conduct by using plague germs in warfare...
>> >> > but he tricked the American government into funding this
>> >> > mad scheme at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer!
>> >> >
>> >> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the
>> >> > mainstream news media does not cover these things
>> >> > because... they aren't happening.
>> >> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker
>> >> Carlson's hijinks:
>> >>
>> >> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-
>> >> mis information-bioweapons-biolab/
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare
>> >> war on Russia so that this nut can finally get what he
>> >> deserves, and be charged with treason.
>> >
>> > I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to
>> > register as a Russian foreign agent. He's about the worst
>> > example of a human being I'm aware of.
>> >
>> Worse than Trump? Really?
>
> You have a point. Putin too.
>
> If I had to defend the position, Putin knows what he's doing,
> but his values and priorities are just alien, due to the
> environment he grew up in.

Only in the sense that said environment has made him batshit crazy,
and something more recent has made him stupid.

> Trump seems to be lacking in self
> awareness and self control, and is a massive narcissist.
> Conversely, Tucker seems aware of what he's doing, is
> perfectly aware that he's lying to his audience, and has decided
> he doesn't care that he's turning America to shit, as long he is
> well paid.

Which makes him no different than any other pundit on any side of
the political spectrum. Only a bit better at it than most.
>
> Putin knows, but feels justified.
> Trump doesn't know, and doesn't understand why he's being
> criticized. Tucker knows, and knows it's wrong, but has decided
> he doesn't care, as long as he's paid.
>
> Somehow that seems more wrong.
>
Tell that to all the dead Ukranians. And Russians, for that matter,
the best estimates on their casualties being in the thousands, if
not tens of thousands, already.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:54 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 7:51:34 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:a6537fba-da06-424e...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:42:03 PM UTC-5, Ninapenda Jibini
> > wrote:
> >> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:a3298361-abc5-458d...@googlegroups.com:
> >> > On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 8:08:40 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > According to fearless American news commentator Tucker
> >> >> > Carlson, Zelensky is indeed madman trying to plunge world
> >> >> > into war! As one comment on his YouTube video puts it, he
> >> >> > is the only American news anchor daring to report on this
> >> >> > story! Apparently, there is a biological warfare lab in
> >> >> > the Ukraine! And what's worse is that this scoundrel
> >> >> > Zelensky is not only planning to defy the norms of
> >> >> > international conduct by using plague germs in warfare...
> >> >> > but he tricked the American government into funding this
> >> >> > mad scheme at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Of course, sheeple like myself will say that the
> >> >> > mainstream news media does not cover these things
> >> >> > because... they aren't happening.
> >> >> Ah, the mainstream news media is now taking notice of Tucker
> >> >> Carlson's hijinks:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://globalnews.ca/news/8673062/russia-ukraine-conspiracy-
> >> >> mis information-bioweapons-biolab/
> >> >>
> >> >> Unfortunately, because nukes, the U.S. can't just declare
> >> >> war on Russia so that this nut can finally get what he
> >> >> deserves, and be charged with treason.
> >> >
> >> > I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to
> >> > register as a Russian foreign agent. He's about the worst
> >> > example of a human being I'm aware of.
> >> >
> >> Worse than Trump? Really?
> >
> > You have a point. Putin too.
> >
> > If I had to defend the position, Putin knows what he's doing,
> > but his values and priorities are just alien, due to the
> > environment he grew up in.
> Only in the sense that said environment has made him batshit crazy,
> and something more recent has made him stupid.
> > Trump seems to be lacking in self
> > awareness and self control, and is a massive narcissist.
> > Conversely, Tucker seems aware of what he's doing, is
> > perfectly aware that he's lying to his audience, and has decided
> > he doesn't care that he's turning America to shit, as long he is
> > well paid.
> Which makes him no different than any other pundit on any side of
> the political spectrum. Only a bit better at it than most.
> >
> > Putin knows, but feels justified.
> > Trump doesn't know, and doesn't understand why he's being
> > criticized. Tucker knows, and knows it's wrong, but has decided
> > he doesn't care, as long as he's paid.
> >
> > Somehow that seems more wrong.
> >
> Tell that to all the dead Ukranians. And Russians, for that matter,
> the best estimates on their casualties being in the thousands, if
> not tens of thousands, already.

Putin has undoubtedly caused far more suffering to date than the
other two.

Pt

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 03:02 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> There is one aspect to this war which has found little mention
> in the Western media, but which plays a significant role in
> Russia's motivations - values.

Because Russia has a significant Jewish minority, and Jewish
people have been prominent in opposition to tyranny in Russia
before as well as under Putin - for example, Kasparov - I think
the attacks on gays in Russia are not primarily a sop to the
Orthodox Church, but instead a way for Putin to show that he is...
illiberal... in order to create a chilling effect on political
opposition from Russia's Jews.

So, since I don't regard the Holocaust as a manifestation of
"family values", I have zero inclination to see any legitimacy to
any protestations by Vladimir Putin that the West is going to
corrupt Russia with its sinful ways.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 03:06 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.

How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
be considered to be the good guys?

Well, except during World War II, of course.

Of course, perhaps the Culture didn't have all the features of the
Soviets, to such an extent that they might as well have been the
Americans.

John Savard

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 05:57 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 6:15:49 PM UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > I'm surprised Tucker hasn't been investigated for failing to register as a Russian
> > foreign agent. He's about the worst example of a human being I'm aware of.
> There is one aspect to this war which has found little mention
> in the Western media, but which plays a significant role in
> Russia's motivations - values.
>
> It can be seen in the last press conference by Russian foreign
> minister Lavrov, after the negotiations with his Ukranian
> counterpart in Turkey. The said, if the subtitles are to be
> believed, that the West could not be trusted because they would
> try to impose their values on Russia.
>
> What values are these supposed to be? Putin, in an earlier speech,
> accused the west of destroying the traditional family, and of
> trying to impose this on Russia - through NGO, LGBT* rights,
> whatever, and that he would resist this. It is therefore not
> surprising that somebody who has a conservative worldview would
> find similarities there.
>
> What is happening in Ukraine right now can, with some justification,
> be called a culture war.
>
> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.

The performance of the Russian army during the invasion gives another insight on Russian values under Putin. As predicted by Sarah Hoyt (and long before her E.E.Smith speaking about Boskonian values) when put to the test of real warfare the lies and distrust behind the system were exposed. Equipment was not maintained according to schedule or was outright sold on the black market. Underlings did not report bad news to their superiors, and were not given the advance notice they needed to plan properly. The more the West can perform as a meritocracy guided by objective truth, the more advantage it has over the likes of Putin.

The Russian Army is now of course undergoing the same Darwinian selection process as every other military force at war. Perhaps its eventual destruction of the Ukraine, or its eventual withdrawal under fire, will produce an Aral Vorkosigan whose reputation is built on restoring some sort of competence to the Russian Army under fire. The emergence of such a character is not necessarily good news for Putin - I have seen people wondering why the Russian Army is resorting to radio transmissions in clear. One suggestion is that this is again due to lack of advance notice for planning - it takes time to set up and deploy a secure schedule of keys and callsigns. A more paranoid possiblity is that Putin did not trust the Russian Army far enough to allow them to say anything he could not also hear. Either way, as the use of Enigma in WWII shows, this lack of secure communications must be costing them dearly.

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 13:06 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 10:57:42 PM UTC-7, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> The more the West can perform as a meritocracy
> guided by objective truth, the more advantage it
> has over the likes of Putin.

This is very true. Unfortunately, however, the West's advantage
over Russia has not proved sufficient to ensure that there would
be *no loss of life whatsoever* in Ukraine due to Russian military
action.

As far as I am concerned, this is the only acceptable standard.

Because Russia has nuclear weapons, it will not even be possible
to end this war in a just manner. Since Russia has killed one or
more innocent persons, it should be held to account: unconditional
surrender, permanent removal of any military capability whatsoever,
and, of course, the deaths of any culpable individuals.

Same with China. One or more American soldiers in Korea died
as the result of Chinese military action.

Of course, the cause of this is that Communist dictatorship in
Russia was not ended prior to their getting their hands on the
secret of The Bomb.

A technology that completely neutralizes the nuclear capabilities
of Russia and China is required. One simple way to do this would
be for the peoples of all the free countries of the world to move,
say, to Mars, or, better yet, somewhere in the Alpha Centauri
system. But we don't have that.

John Savard

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 13:56:44 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 13:56 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>
>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
>
> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
> be considered to be the good guys?

Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
utopia.

Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
order:

- Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
- Abundance of material comforts
- Absence of sexual norms
- Abortion just by "thinking about it"
- In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
- Gender a matter of choice
- Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
will let you learn about them, not from them)
- Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines

plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
(the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).

In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
"State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
pure Marx.

So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
for him.

Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics

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Subject: Re: Honor Harrington and the Pitfalls of Politics
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:19 UTC

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 1:56:48 PM UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >
> >> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
> >> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
> >> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
> >> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
> >> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
> >> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
> >
> > How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
> > be considered to be the good guys?
> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
> utopia.
>
> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
> order:
>
> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
> - Abundance of material comforts
> - Absence of sexual norms
> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
> - Gender a matter of choice
> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
> will let you learn about them, not from them)
> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
>
> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
>
> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
> pure Marx.
>
> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
> for him.
If memory serves, Banks rationalised this by claiming that post-scarcity economics would be different. IMHO this demonstrates a failure to understand the scale and speed of exponential growth, but it at least means that he was not claiming that the Culture or any similarly communist organisation would do will with our current technological limitations. Something similar could be said about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 16:40 UTC

On 3/12/2022 5:56 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
>> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:15:49 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> To bring this back to SF - "Consider Phlebas" is, of course,
>>> the canonical example of a culture war, or "Culture war".
>>> Banks stated that he meant it as an allegory of the Afghan war,
>>> with the Soviets as the Culture (the good guys) and the religious
>>> bigots, the Idirians, as the Afghans (the bad guys). Unlike
>>> in real life, in his novel the Communists won.
>>
>> How odd; in what possible perspective could the Soviets _ever_
>> be considered to be the good guys?
>
> Politically, Banks was far left-wing, and the Culture was his Left
> utopia.
>
> Consider the following points of the Culture, in no particular
> order:
>
> - Nobody has to work unless they want to (like Marx)
> - Abundance of material comforts
> - Absence of sexual norms
> - Abortion just by "thinking about it"
> - In-built drug glands for every Culture citizen
> - Gender a matter of choice
> - Absence of religion (learning about somebody's religion
> will let you learn about them, not from them)
> - Equality of _all_ sentient beings, including machines
>
> plus the fact that he gave any religious people nasty personal
> habits, and in this area, his imagination was quite vivid
> (the "Eaters" being a particularly revolting example).
>
> In his worldview, the Communists were the good guys and on the
> right side of history, or as one of his characters put, I think in
> "State of the Art": "The future is red, bright red." That is
> pure Marx.
>
> So, the Soviets, being Communists, were on the right side of history
> for him.

If the Soviets had actually _been_ Communists in the original meaning of
the word....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

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