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arts / alt.history.what-if / What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

SubjectAuthor
* What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?a425couple
+* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the RoyalRich Rostrom
|`* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?dama...@gmail.com
| `* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the RoyalRich Rostrom
|  +- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?dama...@gmail.com
|  +- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the RoyalRich Rostrom
|  `* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?SolomonW
|   +* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?dama...@gmail.com
|   |`- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?SolomonW
|   `- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?The Horny Goat
+* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?SolomonW
|`* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?dama...@gmail.com
| `* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?SolomonW
|  `- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?The Horny Goat
`* Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the RoyalTrolidan7
 `- Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the RoyalRich Rostrom

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What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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 by: a425couple - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 03:33 UTC

From a Quora
John Young
Lifelong interest in warfare and engineer in the US Air Force,
Army, and Navy.Updated 3y

Would there have been much of a difference if the French Navy had joined
the Royal Navy when they had the chance in WW2, instead of being sunk in
the port?
One of the most regrettable things about World War II, from the Allied
viewpoint, was the unsatisfactory status of the French Navy after the
fall of France, and the eventual sinking of most of its finest ships
either by the British, to prevent them falling under German control; or
in the case of the main fleet at Toulon, by the French themselves, who
scuttled 77 ships to forestall their imminent seizure by the Nazis.

Richelieu was a 35,000 ton battleship built after 1936; she was on a par
with her counterparts like the King George V class in speed, armament,
and protection. Like the British Nelson class, she bore her entire main
armament forward of the superstructure to make more efficient use of
armoured protection and magazine arrangements; and with her powerful
15-inch guns, she would have been the best available battleship to slug
it out with Bismarck.

Churchill himself said that his decision to use force of arms to
neutralise the French battleships in North Africa was one of the
bitterest and hardest decisions he ever had to make. British arms
damaged the modern battleship Richelieu at Dakar, and rendered the small
fast battleship Dunkerque hors de combat at Mers-el-Kebir while sinking
the old battleship Bretagne with the loss of 1,012 crew.

Dunkerque (pictured) and Strasbourg (below) were, like Richelieu, fast
and modern battleships that would have seen immediate service with the
Royal Navy. These innovative ships were designed to fight the German
pocket battleships and win. Instead, they were wrecked at dockside by
British shells and American bombs.

Strasbourg leaving Toulon in 1941. She would be subjected later that
year to the infamous bombardment by the British at an Algerian quayside,
escaping to Toulon, was scuttled there in 1942, refloated by the
Italians in 1943, only to be bombed by the US Army Air Corps in 1944 and
re-sunk to ensure she could not be used against the Allies - a
left-handed compliment of the first order by Allied naval experts for
this excellent fast battleship design. (And incredible as it may seem,
the bloody ship was later re-re-floated and re-re-sunk by the French
Navy in the 1950’s as a testbed for underwater explosives. Battleship,
or porpoise? You decide.)

But what if prior to the fall of Paris, the French government had had
the foresight to promulgate an executive order to the Navy to take every
ship that could move to the nearest British port, and operate as a unit
of the Royal Navy?

This document could have been planned well in advance, coordinated with
the British government, and placed in all ships’ safes to be opened upon
notification.

On June 14, 1940, the order could have been sent out; the Navy would
have had three days prior to the surrender to legally leave port and
head to their designated partner port to fight on, Tricolour at the
masthead, for the liberation of France.

The ships would have operated as the Free French, an administrative unit
under the command of the Royal Navy.

The French Navy was, in 1941, primarily a Mediterranean fleet, designed
most specifically to counter the Italian Navy.

The French entered the war with 71 destroyers and two dozen more under
construction. Their fleet included both small and large destroyers, the
latter category being comprised of about 20 of the world’s largest and
fastest destroyers; typical of these ships are the six Aigle-class
destroyers (pictured) built in the late 1920’s. These ships were foils
to the speed-happy Italian Navy.

In the 1921 Washington Naval Treaty, France and Italy were given naval
parity, each being permitted a total tonnage of capital ships not to
exceed 175,000 tons. Later, they were given parity in cruiser tonnage as
well, and each fleet designed new vessels with the armour and gun
calibers of their Mediterranean rival in mind.

As a result, the French ships did not require any great range, since
they were not expected to operate far from a friendly port. France did,
after all, control ports both at home and across the water, spanning
thousands of miles of French West Africa (Dakar, Casablanca) and French
North Africa (Mers-el-Kebir, Beirut).

The battleship Bretagne in Toulon, 1919. She had two sister ships of
around 24,000 tons each (Lorraine and Provence), carried 13.4-inch guns,
and made a modest 20 knots. She ran on coal and would not have seen
front-line service with the British, who already had five slightly
better old battleships of the R class in service at the start of the
war. The R class displaced 30,000 tons and carried 15-inch guns; and
even they were of limited utility in the new war. Churchill himself
called them “coffin ships,” perhaps a bit harshly.

French battleships were mostly old, and small compared to British and
American capital ships from World War I, largely owing to their modest
range; but they were no slower or smaller than their Italian
counterparts. And that was all that mattered, at least until the Armistice.

Had the British obtained the services of the fleet, they would probably
have set it to the very use for which it had been designed: countering
the Italians. Before the fall of Paris, French ships were already
escorting convoys in the Med to prevent the Italians from interfering;
they would have provided many extra hulls for this important duty during
the desperate days of 1941 through 1943.

France’s lone aircraft carrier, Bearn, a converted battleship, was
comparable to Great Britain’s Eagle. She would have been an excellent
ship to provide air cover to Atlantic convoys out of range of land-based
aircraft in the several years before escort carriers were available.
Instead, she spent the war idling at Martinique in the French Caribbean
and never launched her aircraft in combat.

Spare parts and repairs might have been problematic for the RN in
keeping French ships going, however, and manning might also have been an
issue. Very likely the manpower-heavy old battleships would have either
been laid up, as the 1911 dreadnought Courbet actually was in southern
England; or sent to ports in the South Atlantic to guard against German
surface raiders.

But the French cruisers and destroyers would have been put to work.

The newest cruisers in the French Navy were the six light cruisers of
the La Glassoniere class, all built after 1935 and commissioned shortly
before the outbreak of war in 1939. Displacing only 7,600 tons,
considerably less than the 10,000 tons allowed by the 1930 London Naval
Conference, the medium-sized ships followed the usual French pattern of
smaller ships requiring less manpower and having range sufficient for
home waters.

The French light cruiser Georges-Leygues leads two of her sisters in
line-ahead formation, undated.

And yet while the French built cruisers smaller than their equivalents
in other fleets, they built destroyers that were quite large, and very
fast. The six ships of the Le Fantasque class displaced 2,600 tons -
twice the size of many destroyers in service around the world at the
time - and carried an unusually heavy armament of five 5.4-inch guns.

When some of these ships served with the Allies later in the war, they
were designated as light cruisers! (Tiny ones for sure, but still.) The
class was designed for blue water operations with the fleet’s most
modern battleships and cruisers.

The big destroyers of the La Fantasque class were very fast, making 35
knots in speed trials - comparable to the Italian Navy’s cruisers, which
set all the speed records in World War II and looked good while doing
it, at least until somebody shot at them.

One may surmise that while the French did possess a worldwide colonial
empire, they had significantly less overseas commerce to protect than
did the British; and the bulk of the French possessions were in the
northern half of Africa, rather close to home.

Thus they needed far fewer small destroyers to linger on foreign
stations protecting commerce, and so were able to optimise some of their
designs for combat with the fleet. This philosophy reached its apex with
the beautiful and innovative ships Mogador and Volta.

The two destroyers of the Mogador class, the lead ship (pictured) and
Volta, were improved Le Fantasques, being 300 tons heavier but carrying
eight guns in semi-enclosed twin turrets, a further move toward making
them destroyer-cruiser hybrids. They were specifically designed to
accompany the fast battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg.

Still, not all French destroyers were so big. The fleet operated roughly
50 other small destroyers, as well as sloops and other ship types that
would have been invaluable in service with the destroyer-starved RN
during the most desperate days of the Battle of the Atlantic.

Apart from the outstanding battleship Richelieu, the first of a planned
four-ship class and the only one to be completed before the war (Jean
Bart was completed in the 1950’s and saw brief service), the other
marquee ships of the French Navy were the two battlecruisers or fast
battleships of the Dunkerque class.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal
Navy?
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:42:17 -0600
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:42 UTC

On 3/3/22 9:33 PM, a425couple wrote:
> From a Quora
> John Young
> Lifelong interest in warfare and engineer in the US Air Force,
> Army, and Navy.Updated 3y
>
> Would there have been much of a difference if the French Navy had joined
> the Royal Navy when they had the chance in WW2, instead of being sunk in
> the port?

The extra vessels and manpopwer would have been very useful in
1940-42. The manpower more than the vessels, perhaps, because
it was difficult to maintain and operate French-made ships when
all the support structure was either captured by Germany or
controlled by neutral Vichy.

But also there would have been political effects. Without the
British attack on French ships at Mers-el-Kébir, it would have
been easier for Free France to win allegiance of French colonies
and recruit the soldiers and sailors in British custody in 1940.
(E.g. troops evacuated from France, most of who chose repatriation
instead.)

However, one should note that the ships at Mers-el-Kébir, which
were explicitly asked to declare for the British or be sunk, were
a small part of the overall fleet. There were some additional
ships in British-controlled ports which were peacefully neutralized.
But also many ships in French ports overseas, which remained loyal
to Vichy like the colonial authorities controlling the ports.
However, Navy personnel and facilities were not under the orders
of the colonial governments.

If "the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy", these ships and
their crews would have a political impact in those colonies:
greatly assisting Brtisih and/or Free French takeover.

Down the road: the Allies would not have been worried about Japan
taking over Madagascar as a base in 1942. The Allies feared that
the Vichy French would allow Japan to move in as they did into
Indochina, and take over the naval base at Diego Suarez. They
staged a major operation to take control themselves, which would
not be necessary.

Another issue: there was a French naval squadron in Indochina.
This force did not resist Japanese occupation, under orders from
Vichy. If they have declared for the Allies, what do they do?
Probably sail to Singapore in 1940. Incidentally, the Admiral
was also the governor general.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
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 by: dama...@gmail.com - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:23 UTC

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 4:39:22 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:42:17 -0600, Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >On 3/3/22 9:33 PM, a425couple wrote:
> >> From a Quora
> >> John Young
> >> Lifelong interest in warfare and engineer in the US Air Force,
> >> Army, and Navy.Updated 3y
> >>
> >> Would there have been much of a difference if the French Navy had joined
> >> the Royal Navy when they had the chance in WW2, instead of being sunk in
> >> the port?
> >
> >
> >The extra vessels and manpopwer would have been very useful in
> >1940-42. The manpower more than the vessels, perhaps, because
> >it was difficult to maintain and operate French-made ships when
> >all the support structure was either captured by Germany or
> >controlled by neutral Vichy.
> >
> >But also there would have been political effects. Without the
> >British attack on French ships at Mers-el-Kébir, it would have
> >been easier for Free France to win allegiance of French colonies
> >and recruit the soldiers and sailors in British custody in 1940.
> >(E.g. troops evacuated from France, most of who chose repatriation
> >instead.)
> >
> >However, one should note that the ships at Mers-el-Kébir, which
> >were explicitly asked to declare for the British or be sunk, were
> >a small part of the overall fleet. There were some additional
> >ships in British-controlled ports which were peacefully neutralized.
> >But also many ships in French ports overseas, which remained loyal
> >to Vichy like the colonial authorities controlling the ports.
> >However, Navy personnel and facilities were not under the orders
> >of the colonial governments.
> >
> >If "the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy", these ships and
> >their crews would have a political impact in those colonies:
> >greatly assisting Brtisih and/or Free French takeover.
> >
> >Down the road: the Allies would not have been worried about Japan
> >taking over Madagascar as a base in 1942. The Allies feared that
> >the Vichy French would allow Japan to move in as they did into
> >Indochina, and take over the naval base at Diego Suarez. They
> >staged a major operation to take control themselves, which would
> >not be necessary.
> >
> >Another issue: there was a French naval squadron in Indochina.
> >This force did not resist Japanese occupation, under orders from
> >Vichy. If they have declared for the Allies, what do they do?
> >Probably sail to Singapore in 1940. Incidentally, the Admiral
> >was also the governor general.
> I thought this one of the best posts in more than a month.
>
> One question though: if this POD had happened would Churchill have
> made the "destroyers for bases" deal that hindered Britain so much in
> the post war era? Because if the answer is that he wouldn't have
> gotten the American WW1 destroyers but DID get the French fleet then
> Britain is infinitely better off in 1945 particularly if Britain can
> hand the French ships back to the French thus saving on maintenance
> costs (which would continue for any of the formerly American ships
> that survived to 1945)

Those American destroyers also came fully stocked with supplies and spare parts. The French ships would have been difficult to maintain once France fell. This indeed was the case for quite a few of the French ships that did come over to the Allies.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal
Navy?
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:03:36 -0600
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 04:03 UTC

On 3/7/22 6:23 AM, dama...@gmail.com wrote:
> Those American destroyers also came fully stocked with
> supplies and spare parts.

I'm pretty sure that is wrong on both counts. The ships were
very obsolete and had not been maintained properly for years.

They required considerable refitting before they could be
used, and some were never actually used IIRC.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
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 by: dama...@gmail.com - Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:56 UTC

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 3:00:58 AM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:03:36 -0600, Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >On 3/7/22 6:23 AM, dama...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Those American destroyers also came fully stocked with
> > > supplies and spare parts.
> >
> >I'm pretty sure that is wrong on both counts. The ships were
> >very obsolete and had not been maintained properly for years.
> >
> >They required considerable refitting before they could be
> >used, and some were never actually used IIRC.
> If you are (as I think) referring to the '50 American destroyers'
> these were all US WW1 vintage and most had been out of active service
> for years. They were described as "mothballed" and while I'm going
> from memory here HAVE read Churchill's 6 volume history and believe I
> would remember had WSC made a reference to 'supplies and spare parts'
>
> They were an emergency stopgap which Britain paid a very high price
> for and most were out of service if memory serves by the end of 1943.

Yes, they were mothballed but still maintained in good enough shape to become active warships which they did indeed do. Now, not all of them did, granted. But for the UK (and Canada and other allies) to use these, they had to come with spares. After all, they were built in the US, so the UK was not going to pull spares out of their own stocks. And yes, for what the UK wanted these for (escort duties) they did need some conversion. This the UK could and did do by removing boilers, stacks, excess equipment and adding more fuel tanks, etc.

Most may have been out of service by 1943 but by then, they were not nearly needed as desperately. The UK had constructed more, and the US was in the war.

I remember reading that British and Canadian sailors taking over the ships were surprised to find the galleys were fully stocked with food. I cannot find that reference. However, I did find a Quora (not that I am fond of using it as a reference): https://www.quora.com/Were-the-50-destroyers-given-to-Britain-by-the-US-in-the-1940-bases-agreement-really-old-surplus-being-dumped

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal
Navy?
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 22:10:58 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Tue, 15 Mar 2022 03:10 UTC

On 3/10/22 2:00 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> They were an emergency stopgap which Britain paid a very high price...

AIUI, Britain paid nothing. The ships were exchanged for the
right to establish air and naval bases in British-controlled
territories.. But those bases were intended to for use in the
Battle of the Atlantic - that is, in support of Britain.

(At the time, it was explained that the bases would allow the
US to better defend North America. Thiss was rather disingenuous,
as there was no threat of attack against America, only the very
speculative possibility of attack by a super-triumphant Axis.)

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:33:17 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:33 UTC

One significant effect was the Japanese plan for Pearl Harbor was based on
what they saw happen at Mers-el-Kebir. It may butterfly out Pearl Harbor.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:47:22 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:47 UTC

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:00:55 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:

> They were an emergency stopgap which Britain paid a very high price
> for and most were out of service if memory serves by the end of 1943.

Here is there military record in ww2

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Town-class_destroyer

Generally served either as minelayers or convoy escorts. They had
relatively little success against U-boats with a few notable exceptions as
they managed to sink 8 U-boats. They also did some minelaying.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
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 by: dama...@gmail.com - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:34 UTC

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 5:33:09 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
> One significant effect was the Japanese plan for Pearl Harbor was based on
> what they saw happen at Mers-el-Kebir. It may butterfly out Pearl Harbor.

I suspect you have Mers-el Kebir confused with Taranto. The former was a bombardment of the French fleet by the Royal Navy after they refused to surrender or go to a neutral port. Taranto was the Royal Navy carrier raid that completely surprised and disabled a good portion of the Italian fleet.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
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 by: dama...@gmail.com - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:40 UTC

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 5:47:14 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:00:55 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
> > They were an emergency stopgap which Britain paid a very high price
> > for and most were out of service if memory serves by the end of 1943.
> Here is there military record in ww2
>
> https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Town-class_destroyer
>
>
> Generally served either as minelayers or convoy escorts. They had
> relatively little success against U-boats with a few notable exceptions as
> they managed to sink 8 U-boats. They also did some minelaying.

That's damning with faint praise. While the destroyers were outdated and not as capable as current Royal Navy, they still provided a greatly needed escort service. They may have only sunk 8 submarines but they certainly drove off or prevented many others from attacking convoys. And you neglected to mention the HMS Campbelltown, which in a glorious moment of sacrifice, rammed and destroyed the Normandie Drydock at St. Nazaire. That effectively removed any support for German heavy ships in France. And it must be remembered that Great Britain was at a crucial time when these ships were requested. They were a short yet essential lifeline.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:38:09 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:38 UTC

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 04:34:37 -0700 (PDT), dama...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 5:33:09 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
>> One significant effect was the Japanese plan for Pearl Harbor was based on
>> what they saw happen at Mers-el-Kebir. It may butterfly out Pearl Harbor.
>
> I suspect you have Mers-el Kebir confused with Taranto.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
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Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:46:35 +1100
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 by: SolomonW - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:46 UTC

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 04:40:01 -0700 (PDT), dama...@gmail.com wrote:

> That's damning with faint praise. While the destroyers were outdated and not as capable as current Royal Navy, they still provided a greatly needed escort service.

Yes, submarine supply ships too. If you go through the list, they did much
valuable work in WW2, some of which was service till the war ended.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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 by: The Horny Goat - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:19 UTC

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:47:22 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:00:55 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> They were an emergency stopgap which Britain paid a very high price
>> for and most were out of service if memory serves by the end of 1943.
>
>Here is there military record in ww2
>
>https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Town-class_destroyer
>
>
>Generally served either as minelayers or convoy escorts. They had
>relatively little success against U-boats with a few notable exceptions as
>they managed to sink 8 U-boats. They also did some minelaying.

That was basically what I was saying - and giving primary control over
the "Caribbean empire" (which in some respect was economically
inevitable in any case).

My apologies for any confusion.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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 by: The Horny Goat - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:20 UTC

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 21:38:09 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 04:34:37 -0700 (PDT), dama...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 5:33:09 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
>>> One significant effect was the Japanese plan for Pearl Harbor was based on
>>> what they saw happen at Mers-el-Kebir. It may butterfly out Pearl Harbor.
>>
>> I suspect you have Mers-el Kebir confused with Taranto.

Very true - Mers-el-Kebir was basically a conventional Jutland type
'engagement' (albeit with surprise) whereas Taranto was air launched
torpedoes against ships.

Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: Trolid...@eternal-september.org (Trolidan7)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal
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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 12:15:32 -0700
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 by: Trolidan7 - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:15 UTC

On 3/3/22 7:33 PM, a425couple wrote:
> From a Quora
> John Young
> Lifelong interest in warfare and engineer in the US Air Force,
> Army, and Navy.Updated 3y
>
> Would there have been much of a difference if the French Navy had joined
> the Royal Navy when they had the chance in WW2, instead of being sunk in
> the port?
> One of the most regrettable things about World War II, from the Allied
> viewpoint, was the unsatisfactory status of the French Navy after the
> fall of France, and the eventual sinking of most of its finest ships
> either by the British, to prevent them falling under German control; or
> in the case of the main fleet at Toulon, by the French themselves, who
> scuttled 77 ships to forestall their imminent seizure by the Nazis.
>
>
> Richelieu was a 35,000 ton battleship built after 1936; she was on a par
> with her counterparts like the King George V class in speed, armament,
> and protection. Like the British Nelson class, she bore her entire main
> armament forward of the superstructure to make more efficient use of
> armoured protection and magazine arrangements; and with her powerful
> 15-inch guns, she would have been the best available battleship to slug
> it out with Bismarck.
>
> Churchill himself said that his decision to use force of arms to
> neutralise the French battleships in North Africa was one of the
> bitterest and hardest decisions he ever had to make. British arms
> damaged the modern battleship Richelieu at Dakar, and rendered the small
> fast battleship Dunkerque hors de combat at Mers-el-Kebir while sinking
> the old battleship Bretagne with the loss of 1,012 crew.
>
>
> Dunkerque (pictured) and Strasbourg (below) were, like Richelieu, fast
> and modern battleships that would have seen immediate service with the
> Royal Navy. These innovative ships were designed to fight the German
> pocket battleships and win. Instead, they were wrecked at dockside by
> British shells and American bombs.
>
>
> Strasbourg leaving Toulon in 1941. She would be subjected later that
> year to the infamous bombardment by the British at an Algerian quayside,
> escaping to Toulon, was scuttled there in 1942, refloated by the
> Italians in 1943, only to be bombed by the US Army Air Corps in 1944 and
> re-sunk to ensure she could not be used against the Allies - a
> left-handed compliment of the first order by Allied naval experts for
> this excellent fast battleship design. (And incredible as it may seem,
> the bloody ship was later re-re-floated and re-re-sunk by the French
> Navy in the 1950’s as a testbed for underwater explosives. Battleship,
> or porpoise? You decide.)
>
> But what if prior to the fall of Paris, the French government had had
> the foresight to promulgate an executive order to the Navy to take every
> ship that could move to the nearest British port, and operate as a unit
> of the Royal Navy?
>
> This document could have been planned well in advance, coordinated with
> the British government, and placed in all ships’ safes to be opened upon
> notification.
>
> On June 14, 1940, the order could have been sent out; the Navy would
> have had three days prior to the surrender to legally leave port and
> head to their designated partner port to fight on, Tricolour at the
> masthead, for the liberation of France.
>
> The ships would have operated as the Free French, an administrative unit
> under the command of the Royal Navy.
>
> The French Navy was, in 1941, primarily a Mediterranean fleet, designed
> most specifically to counter the Italian Navy.
>
>
> The French entered the war with 71 destroyers and two dozen more under
> construction. Their fleet included both small and large destroyers, the
> latter category being comprised of about 20 of the world’s largest and
> fastest destroyers; typical of these ships are the six Aigle-class
> destroyers (pictured) built in the late 1920’s. These ships were foils
> to the speed-happy Italian Navy.
>
> In the 1921 Washington Naval Treaty, France and Italy were given naval
> parity, each being permitted a total tonnage of capital ships not to
> exceed 175,000 tons. Later, they were given parity in cruiser tonnage as
> well, and each fleet designed new vessels with the armour and gun
> calibers of their Mediterranean rival in mind.
>
> As a result, the French ships did not require any great range, since
> they were not expected to operate far from a friendly port. France did,
> after all, control ports both at home and across the water, spanning
> thousands of miles of French West Africa (Dakar, Casablanca) and French
> North Africa (Mers-el-Kebir, Beirut).
>
>
> The battleship Bretagne in Toulon, 1919. She had two sister ships of
> around 24,000 tons each (Lorraine and Provence), carried 13.4-inch guns,
> and made a modest 20 knots. She ran on coal and would not have seen
> front-line service with the British, who already had five slightly
> better old battleships of the R class in service at the start of the
> war. The R class displaced 30,000 tons and carried 15-inch guns; and
> even they were of limited utility in the new war. Churchill himself
> called them “coffin ships,” perhaps a bit harshly.
>
> French battleships were mostly old, and small compared to British and
> American capital ships from World War I, largely owing to their modest
> range; but they were no slower or smaller than their Italian
> counterparts. And that was all that mattered, at least until the Armistice.
>
> Had the British obtained the services of the fleet, they would probably
> have set it to the very use for which it had been designed: countering
> the Italians. Before the fall of Paris, French ships were already
> escorting convoys in the Med to prevent the Italians from interfering;
> they would have provided many extra hulls for this important duty during
> the desperate days of 1941 through 1943.
>
>
> France’s lone aircraft carrier, Bearn, a converted battleship, was
> comparable to Great Britain’s Eagle. She would have been an excellent
> ship to provide air cover to Atlantic convoys out of range of land-based
> aircraft in the several years before escort carriers were available.
> Instead, she spent the war idling at Martinique in the French Caribbean
> and never launched her aircraft in combat.
>
> Spare parts and repairs might have been problematic for the RN in
> keeping French ships going, however, and manning might also have been an
> issue. Very likely the manpower-heavy old battleships would have either
> been laid up, as the 1911 dreadnought Courbet actually was in southern
> England; or sent to ports in the South Atlantic to guard against German
> surface raiders.
>
> But the French cruisers and destroyers would have been put to work.
>
> The newest cruisers in the French Navy were the six light cruisers of
> the La Glassoniere class, all built after 1935 and commissioned shortly
> before the outbreak of war in 1939. Displacing only 7,600 tons,
> considerably less than the 10,000 tons allowed by the 1930 London Naval
> Conference, the medium-sized ships followed the usual French pattern of
> smaller ships requiring less manpower and having range sufficient for
> home waters.
>
>
> The French light cruiser Georges-Leygues leads two of her sisters in
> line-ahead formation, undated.
>
> And yet while the French built cruisers smaller than their equivalents
> in other fleets, they built destroyers that were quite large, and very
> fast. The six ships of the Le Fantasque class displaced 2,600 tons -
> twice the size of many destroyers in service around the world at the
> time - and carried an unusually heavy armament of five 5.4-inch guns.
>
> When some of these ships served with the Allies later in the war, they
> were designated as light cruisers! (Tiny ones for sure, but still.) The
> class was designed for blue water operations with the fleet’s most
> modern battleships and cruisers.
>
>
> The big destroyers of the La Fantasque class were very fast, making 35
> knots in speed trials - comparable to the Italian Navy’s cruisers, which
> set all the speed records in World War II and looked good while doing
> it, at least until somebody shot at them.
>
> One may surmise that while the French did possess a worldwide colonial
> empire, they had significantly less overseas commerce to protect than
> did the British; and the bulk of the French possessions were in the
> northern half of Africa, rather close to home.
>
> Thus they needed far fewer small destroyers to linger on foreign
> stations protecting commerce, and so were able to optimise some of their
> designs for combat with the fleet. This philosophy reached its apex with
> the beautiful and innovative ships Mogador and Volta.
>
>
> The two destroyers of the Mogador class, the lead ship (pictured) and
> Volta, were improved Le Fantasques, being 300 tons heavier but carrying
> eight guns in semi-enclosed twin turrets, a further move toward making
> them destroyer-cruiser hybrids. They were specifically designed to
> accompany the fast battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg.
>
> Still, not all French destroyers were so big. The fleet operated roughly
> 50 other small destroyers, as well as sloops and other ship types that
> would have been invaluable in service with the destroyer-starved RN
> during the most desperate days of the Battle of the Atlantic.
>
> Apart from the outstanding battleship Richelieu, the first of a planned
> four-ship class and the only one to be completed before the war (Jean
> Bart was completed in the 1950’s and saw brief service), the other
> marquee ships of the French Navy were the two battlecruisers or fast
> battleships of the Dunkerque class.
>
>
> There was something vaguely Japanese-looking about the articulated
> pagoda-like superstructures of the Dunkerques. They were probably the
> only Western capital ships that favoured the ugly-as-sin Imperial
> Japanese Navy battleships Ise and Hyuga (Ise pictured below).
>
>
> The Japanese battleship Ise, with her distinctive “pagoda
> superstructure.” She’s even uglier than I remember, bless her heart. (I
> learned living in the southern US that you can say anything you like
> about anyone, as long as you say “bless her heart” after.)
>
> These two warships were designed to counter the German pocket
> battleships. Like Richelieu, their main battery was all forward of the
> superstructure. They would have been crackerjack ships to serve with the
> Royal Navy, taking the kind of roles that battlecruisers Renown and
> Repulse might have been assigned, such as escorting Ark Royal and other
> aircraft carriers.
>
> Although their armour was designed to resist 11-inch gunfire, the size
> carried by the three pocket battleships and the two much-improved
> follow-on battleships of the Scharnhorst class, they might well have
> been allowed to shadow Bismarck considerably more closely than Renown
> was permitted after the loss of Hood.
>
> Although fans of the American Navy of 1945 might be unimpressed with the
> smaller French Navy of 1940, the fleet would have been at the right
> place, and at the right time.
>
> The three fast, modern capital ships would have made the hunt for the
> Bismarck a more certain kill by the Allies; and what poetic justice for
> the French crews.
>
> The dozen or so cruisers would have been invaluable in Mediterranean
> operations, such as the evaculation of Crete, when the British were
> stretched thin and suffering high losses to the Axis.
>
> The 70-plus destroyers, sent into escort service when the fate of Great
> Britain was in the balance, would have made a material difference -
> rather more, perhaps, even than America’s 50 World War I-vintage
> “lend-lease” four-piper destroyers did.
>
> And the many fleet auxiliaries, smaller escort ships like sloops and
> torpedo boats, and 21 submarines sized for operations in the shallow
> waters of the Med, would have been welome and much appreciated relief
> for the RN in the dark days before the entry of American hardware en
> masse into the European theatre in 1942.
>
> The French Navy might have made all the difference to a nation that
> nearly went under in 1941; and if Great Britain had indeed gone under,
> there would have been no salvaging the situation from North America.
>
> The world we would live in today would scarcely bear imagining.
>
> 94.9K views627 upvotes20 shares65 comments
> 5.7K viewsView 65 upvotes
> ----------------------
>
> Dayan Warna
>
> The plan was for france’s marine nationale to neutralize or defeat the
> regia marina with support from the RN
>
> Without having to patrol the Mediterranean the british would have swept
> the germans from the Atlantic inside 2 years and the switched to the
> Pacific
>
> The access to north africa & suez was vital so there would have been a
> sqn at alexandria and at Gibraltar
>
> Instead the RN had 1/3 of the fleet in the Mediterranean


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Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal Navy?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: What if - In early WWII the French Navy had joined the Royal
Navy?
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 16:09:11 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:09 UTC

On 3/19/22 2:15 PM, Trolidan7 wrote:
> Some of this did happen in our time line because the U.K. and
> U.S. did not consider Vichy France to be the legitimate government
> of France.

Absolutely false, as far as the US was concerned.

The US had diplomatic relations with Vichy France
right up to Operation TORCH.

So did Canada, BTW.

Immediately after TORCH, the Allies recognized
Darlan, the Vichy High Commissioner for North
Africa, as the head of government.

The status of "Free France" was always ambiguous;
no other country recognized Free France as the
government-in-exile.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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