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interests / alt.toys.transformers / Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

SubjectAuthor
* In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at someRodimus_2316
`* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atZobovor
 `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atJoseph Bardsley
  `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the DecepticonsGustavo Wombat
   `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atCodigo Postal
    `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atZobovor
     `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the DecepticonsGustavo Wombat
      `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atCodigo Postal
       `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atZobovor
        `* Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atCodigo Postal
         `- Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, atJoseph Bardsley

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In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some
point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: rodimus2...@hotmail.com (Rodimus_2316)
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 by: Rodimus_2316 - Sat, 22 Oct 2022 16:10 UTC

We know the Autobots knew, as Rodimus Prime went into the matrix, found out, and told them all in FFoD. For the rest of season 3, it felt like the Decepticons never learned it. Or am I wrong? It's possible they found out at some point, I guess.

- Rodimus_2316

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Sat, 22 Oct 2022 19:36 UTC

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-6, Rodimus_2316 wrote:

> We know the Autobots knew, as Rodimus Prime went into the matrix, found out, and told them all in FFoD. For the rest of season 3, it felt like the Decepticons never learned it. Or am I wrong? It's possible they found out at some point, I guess.

Doesn't seem likely. Galvatron was too busy being crazy to worry about such things. If Blitzwing ever gained a moment of clarity, maybe he would have finally put the puzzle pieces together, but would anybody believe him? Would they care?

Cyclonus might have guessed what was going on after he was captured in "The Killing Jar," and may have heard the Quintesson scientist talking about how Autobots were programmed this way or Decepticons were programmed that way.. If anybody figured it out, it was probably him. Also, the Quintessons already knowing about the secrets lurking deep beneath Cybertron in "The Dweller in the Depths" should have been a big tip-off, too.

Zob (still has no idea what secrets are lurking in the crawl space deep beneath my front porch)

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: joe.bard...@gmail.com (Joseph Bardsley)
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 by: Joseph Bardsley - Tue, 25 Oct 2022 02:42 UTC

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 12:36:50 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-6, Rodimus_2316 wrote:
>
> > We know the Autobots knew, as Rodimus Prime went into the matrix, found out, and told them all in FFoD. For the rest of season 3, it felt like the Decepticons never learned it. Or am I wrong? It's possible they found out at some point, I guess.
> Doesn't seem likely. Galvatron was too busy being crazy to worry about such things. If Blitzwing ever gained a moment of clarity, maybe he would have finally put the puzzle pieces together, but would anybody believe him? Would they care?
>
> Cyclonus might have guessed what was going on after he was captured in "The Killing Jar," and may have heard the Quintesson scientist talking about how Autobots were programmed this way or Decepticons were programmed that way. If anybody figured it out, it was probably him. Also, the Quintessons already knowing about the secrets lurking deep beneath Cybertron in "The Dweller in the Depths" should have been a big tip-off, too.

Very true. And, if anyone, Cyclonus could be counted on to do what was best for his species with that information (i.e., go public with the news, in a big way).
>
>
> Zob (still has no idea what secrets are lurking in the crawl space deep beneath my front porch)

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
Newsgroups: alt.toys.transformers
Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons
learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian
robot race?
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 05:13:38 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Wed, 26 Oct 2022 05:13 UTC

Joseph Bardsley <joe.bardsley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 12:36:50 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-6, Rodimus_2316 wrote:
>>
>>> We know the Autobots knew, as Rodimus Prime went into the matrix, found
>>> out, and told them all in FFoD. For the rest of season 3, it felt like
>>> the Decepticons never learned it. Or am I wrong? It's possible they
>>> found out at some point, I guess.
>> Doesn't seem likely. Galvatron was too busy being crazy to worry about
>> such things. If Blitzwing ever gained a moment of clarity, maybe he
>> would have finally put the puzzle pieces together, but would anybody
>> believe him? Would they care?
>>
>> Cyclonus might have guessed what was going on after he was captured in
>> "The Killing Jar," and may have heard the Quintesson scientist talking
>> about how Autobots were programmed this way or Decepticons were
>> programmed that way. If anybody figured it out, it was probably him.
>> Also, the Quintessons already knowing about the secrets lurking deep
>> beneath Cybertron in "The Dweller in the Depths" should have been a big tip-off, too.
>
> Very true. And, if anyone, Cyclonus could be counted on to do what was
> best for his species with that information (i.e., go public with the news, in a big way).
>>
>>
>> Zob (still has no idea what secrets are lurking in the crawl space deep
>> beneath my front porch)
>

Transformers are treated as human analogues in the cartoon, so my
assumption would be that they would treat the information like humans would
have been imagined to back in the 1980s. People talk. Information wants to
be free, and you have to make an effort to contain it — just as water wants
to go downhill.

I don’t think it was a secret. We never see it spread, but characters like
Perceptor sure act like they know Quintessons have a lot of history on
Cybertron — I’m thinking the episode with the time window specifically.
Daniel knows, based on the Quintesson dreamscape episode.

Since the Decepticons likely keep tabs on the Autobots, I would assume that
they know the Autobots believe this, even if the Decepticons don’t know it
is true. And then you have The Killing Jar, where Cyclonus should know just
from paying attention, and he doesn’t seem surprised in any way.

I think the easiest answer is that everyone knows Quintessons made
Transformers.

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: codigopo...@gmail.com (Codigo Postal)
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 by: Codigo Postal - Wed, 26 Oct 2022 13:06 UTC

If they're anything like us, there are probably very strong factions amongst the Autobots who refuse to believe in the Quintesson-origin theory without stronger proof than their new leader's acid-trip-induced flashback. We don't have a great deal of proof that the Quints are, in fact, who they claim to be. They're enslavers and colonizers, but have shown precious little ability to create intelligent life beyond the animalistic Dwellers, Sharkticons, and Allicons.

As for the Cons, a group that believes might makes right would probably reject the idea that these conniving, weak oddities were their creators. As Bludgeon said in the comics, their conception of a savior is an ultimate warrior, and it's likely that conception extends to their creator itself - a warrior god, a proud conqueror, not a sniveling race of opportunistic scum. That's assuming the news wasn't censored to begin with: how demoralizing for a defeated army to be told they hail not from a proud warrior lineage, but as commercial goods for the slime of the nebula.

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Fri, 28 Oct 2022 01:16 UTC

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:06:01 AM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:

> They're enslavers and colonizers, but have shown precious little ability to create intelligent life beyond the animalistic Dwellers, Sharkticons, and Allicons.

The Quintessons seemed to be speaking of the Predacons in "Five Faces of Darkness" part 5 as if they were a recent creation of theirs. And they must have built the Terrorcons, too, because they were owned by the Quintessons as seen in "Money is Everything" before they were annexed to the Decepticons proper.

> We don't have a great deal of proof that the Quints are, in fact, who they claim to be.

Are you suggesting the Quintessons are not actually the creators of the Transformers? Even if you discount the Matrix vision as being a second-hand account, the Quintessons themselves were speaking amongst themselves in "The Dweller in the Depths" about how they owned Cybertron until forced into exile by their own creations. It doesn't make sense for the Quintessons to lie to *themselves* about that!

Then again, maybe that explains why the Quintesson who tried to bring Optimus Prime back to life was doing such a lousy job at first. "Huh? Created him? Oh, sure, yeah, I totally created him. Um, let's see. Nope, that didn't work. Huh, that didn't work either. No, I created him, a hundred percent. He's just... um, he's just really, really dead. Yeah, that's it."

Zob (like, immensely dead)

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
Newsgroups: alt.toys.transformers
Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons
learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian
robot race?
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 06:20:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Fri, 28 Oct 2022 06:20 UTC

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:06:01 AM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
>> They're enslavers and colonizers, but have shown precious little ability
>> to create intelligent life beyond the animalistic Dwellers, Sharkticons, and Allicons.
>
> The Quintessons seemed to be speaking of the Predacons in "Five Faces of
> Darkness" part 5 as if they were a recent creation of theirs. And they
> must have built the Terrorcons, too, because they were owned by the
> Quintessons as seen in "Money is Everything" before they were annexed to
> the Decepticons proper.
>
>> We don't have a great deal of proof that the Quints are, in fact, who they claim to be.
>
> Are you suggesting the Quintessons are not actually the creators of the
> Transformers? Even if you discount the Matrix vision as being a
> second-hand account, the Quintessons themselves were speaking amongst
> themselves in "The Dweller in the Depths" about how they owned Cybertron
> until forced into exile by their own creations.

Alternately, the Quintessons could have harnessed the power of Vector
Sigma, and manufactured many Transformers rather than creating the concept.

And since Primacron’s Assistant created the beasts (including the ones
Wheeljack created), we might go back to Primacron creating Vector Sigma and
the first Transformers… like Unicron.

Of course, since the Quintessons are mechanically augmented biological
creatures, it’s possible the Primacron IS a Quintesson. Or Quintesson
ancestor. And things like the Dwellers might have been animal experiments
for the techniques the created the Quintessons.

(Or maybe the scientists are robots who like to harvest green tentacles
from somewhere as a fashion thing.)

> It doesn't make sense for the Quintessons to lie to *themselves* about that!

If the show was created now, I would argue that point, as you just have to
look at American history to see all sorts of crazy things that are wildly
untrue. See the myths of the South and the West for some egregious
examples.

But, my favorite is the Boston Tea Party — we are always told that it was a
tax revolt, but it was triggered when the British actually *lowered* the
taxes. The smugglers (our Founding Fathers in the region) were upset
because it meant that the official tea was competitive in price with the
smuggled tea, and cutting into their profit. So the threw the competing tea
in the bay.

But, for a 1980s cartoon, the writers were not making any commentary about
lost causes, or fictitious history.

> Then again, maybe that explains why the Quintesson who tried to bring
> Optimus Prime back to life was doing such a lousy job at first. "Huh?
> Created him? Oh, sure, yeah, I totally created him. Um, let's see.
> Nope, that didn't work. Huh, that didn't work either. No, I created
> him, a hundred percent. He's just... um, he's just really, really dead. Yeah, that's it."

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: codigopo...@gmail.com (Codigo Postal)
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 by: Codigo Postal - Fri, 28 Oct 2022 23:58 UTC

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 2:20:55 AM UTC-4, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:06:01 AM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
> >
> >> They're enslavers and colonizers, but have shown precious little ability
> >> to create intelligent life beyond the animalistic Dwellers, Sharkticons, and Allicons.
> >
> > The Quintessons seemed to be speaking of the Predacons in "Five Faces of
> > Darkness" part 5 as if they were a recent creation of theirs. And they
> > must have built the Terrorcons, too, because they were owned by the
> > Quintessons as seen in "Money is Everything" before they were annexed to
> > the Decepticons proper.

And it's not necessarily the best argument for them being creators of the Transformers.
If these are the actual Quints who created the original Bots and Cons, then why, with all the tech at their disposal (Nightmare Planet, world-ending weapons for Zetaxxis and Lanarq, etc), is the best they can do these bestial troops of limited intelligence?

> >
> >> We don't have a great deal of proof that the Quints are, in fact, who they claim to be.
> >
> > Are you suggesting the Quintessons are not actually the creators of the
> > Transformers? Even if you discount the Matrix vision as being a
> > second-hand account, the Quintessons themselves were speaking amongst
> > themselves in "The Dweller in the Depths" about how they owned Cybertron
> > until forced into exile by their own creations.
> Alternately, the Quintessons could have harnessed the power of Vector
> Sigma, and manufactured many Transformers rather than creating the concept.

This seems the most likely possibility. The Quints may have been the unwitting instruments of Vector Sigma, used by that central intelligence to create the Transformers. As such, they were essentially outsourced lackeys (though they didn't realize it) rather than master designers. They ran the factories and managed the slaves, but that was the extent of their involvement.

Vector Sigma to me is a slightly sinister and certainly sentient deity, not a mere supercomputer, though it may have been to its advantage to lie low under such an unassuming guise.

Recall how Optimus entreats it to bestow compassion on the Aerialbots worthy of Alpha Trion, treating it like a religious entity capable of heeding his pleas and dispensing favors.

Most notably, Vector Sigma engineered the entire course of events in The Rebirth to bring itself back to full strength, through an incredibly convoluted scheme that could never have worked without Galvatron's involvement and putting the planet Earth at risk.

If it had simply reached out to Optimus in the first place and asked him to overload the Sun to create excess energy for its renewal, the Autobot Leader would almost certainly have refused. Using Galvatron as the pawn was diabolical; Vector Sigma deliberately jeopardized the lives of the humans, the Nebulans, and the Autobots themselves in a huge gamble to charge its own battery.

Looking even farther back, it's plausible that Vector Sigma engineered the creation of the Transformers, as well as the circumstances of their enslavement under the Quints, to turn them into its own frontline defense. Their slavery taught them endurance, the gladiator arena taught them to fight, and the ensuing uprising and civil war kept them in fighting shape to battle Unicron and ultimately ensure Vector Sigma's own survival.

> > It doesn't make sense for the Quintessons to lie to *themselves* about that!
> If the show was created now, I would argue that point, as you just have to
> look at American history to see all sorts of crazy things that are wildly
> untrue. See the myths of the South and the West for some egregious
> examples.
>
> But, my favorite is the Boston Tea Party — we are always told that it was a
> tax revolt, but it was triggered when the British actually *lowered* the
> taxes. The smugglers (our Founding Fathers in the region) were upset
> because it meant that the official tea was competitive in price with the
> smuggled tea, and cutting into their profit. So the threw the competing tea
> in the bay.

Today I learned something!

>
> But, for a 1980s cartoon, the writers were not making any commentary about
> lost causes, or fictitious history.

Perhaps not consciously, but who's to say that their subconscious minds didn't color how they wrote their characters and backstories?

> > Then again, maybe that explains why the Quintesson who tried to bring
> > Optimus Prime back to life was doing such a lousy job at first. "Huh?
> > Created him? Oh, sure, yeah, I totally created him. Um, let's see.
> > Nope, that didn't work. Huh, that didn't work either. No, I created
> > him, a hundred percent. He's just... um, he's just really, really dead. Yeah, that's it."

It's like the employee who inflates and exaggerates his accomplishments on his resume/LinkedIn profile, only for his shortcomings to be revealed when he actually gets the job and needs to deliver. The Quints are, at best, middle management masquerading as innovative leaders.

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Sat, 29 Oct 2022 00:34 UTC

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 5:58:05 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:

> If these are the actual Quints who created the original Bots and Cons, then why, with all the tech at their disposal (Nightmare Planet, world-ending weapons for Zetaxxis and Lanarq, etc), is the best they can do these bestial troops of limited intelligence?

Because they don't have ready access to Vector Sigma any longer. Speaking of which...

> Most notably, Vector Sigma engineered the entire course of events in The Rebirth to bring itself back to full strength, through an incredibly convoluted scheme that could never have worked without Galvatron's involvement and putting the planet Earth at risk.

As a supercomputer, I think Vector Sigma was capable of crunching Big Data and calculating all the many variables that lesser beings like the Transformers were incapable of seeing. You say it was only interested in charging up its own batteries, but revitalizing Cybertron was stated as the goal for both the Autobots and Decepticons way back in the first episode. The entire show was based around the quest for more energy to bring Cybertron back to life, and we finally got it in the last episode.

The whole business with the Headmasters and Targetmasters probably wasn't part of Vector Sigma's plan at all. It was probably thinking, "I'll tell Galvatron about the plasma energy key, and he'll build a gigantic rocket engine to move Cybertron into Earth's orbit to destroy it. Spike will show up at the last minute and shut down the plasma energy chamber, because Spike always saves the Transformers' collective asses. QED."

The only real variable is how lucid Galvatron is on any given day. He tried to just blow Cybertron up in "Chaos," so it's arguable that the idea of stealing enough energy to restore Cybertron to its glory days was more of a Megatron thing.

Zob (it's sort of like Gargamel, who either wants to eat the Smurfs, turn them into gold, or just kill them, depending on what day of the week it is)

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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Subject: Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at
some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?
From: codigopo...@gmail.com (Codigo Postal)
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 by: Codigo Postal - Sat, 29 Oct 2022 01:20 UTC

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:34:07 PM UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:

> > Most notably, Vector Sigma engineered the entire course of events in The Rebirth to bring itself back to full strength, through an incredibly convoluted scheme that could never have worked without Galvatron's involvement and putting the planet Earth at risk.
> As a supercomputer, I think Vector Sigma was capable of crunching Big Data and calculating all the many variables that lesser beings like the Transformers were incapable of seeing. You say it was only interested in charging up its own batteries, but revitalizing Cybertron was stated as the goal for both the Autobots and Decepticons way back in the first episode. The entire show was based around the quest for more energy to bring Cybertron back to life, and we finally got it in the last episode.

Well, I was being flippant. The Rebirth 3-parter is one of my favorite episodes of the entire show. Except for the tag with Galvatron and Zarak bickering like a sitcom couple, it lent a nice sense of finality to the series. Optimus and the Autobots are home, the Decepticons have been evicted, and the lights are back on. Like you said, full circle.

>
> The whole business with the Headmasters and Targetmasters probably wasn't part of Vector Sigma's plan at all. It was probably thinking, "I'll tell Galvatron about the plasma energy key, and he'll build a gigantic rocket engine to move Cybertron into Earth's orbit to destroy it. Spike will show up at the last minute and shut down the plasma energy chamber, because Spike always saves the Transformers' collective asses. QED."

Spike is consistently underrated. He's a human ally who punches far above his weight. And he's cool under fire: when every Transformer has been put into sleep mode, and the planet looks lost to the Quints, he doesn't panic, he simply grabs the Chosen One's blaster, hoists it over his shoulder, and coolly blows up the off switch while delivering a badass one-liner. You just can't find help like that these days.

>
> The only real variable is how lucid Galvatron is on any given day. He tried to just blow Cybertron up in "Chaos," so it's arguable that the idea of stealing enough energy to restore Cybertron to its glory days was more of a Megatron thing.

Betting the survival of your planet and all its inhabitants on the chance that Galvatron is having a good mental health day seems...iffy at best.

Maybe we were all better off under the Quints.

Re: In the G1 cartoon, is it possible the Decepticons learned, at some point, that the Quintessons created the Cybertronian robot race?

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From: joe.bard...@gmail.com (Joseph Bardsley)
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 by: Joseph Bardsley - Tue, 1 Nov 2022 02:46 UTC

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 6:20:46 PM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:34:07 PM UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:
>
> > > Most notably, Vector Sigma engineered the entire course of events in The Rebirth to bring itself back to full strength, through an incredibly convoluted scheme that could never have worked without Galvatron's involvement and putting the planet Earth at risk.
> > As a supercomputer, I think Vector Sigma was capable of crunching Big Data and calculating all the many variables that lesser beings like the Transformers were incapable of seeing. You say it was only interested in charging up its own batteries, but revitalizing Cybertron was stated as the goal for both the Autobots and Decepticons way back in the first episode. The entire show was based around the quest for more energy to bring Cybertron back to life, and we finally got it in the last episode.
> Well, I was being flippant. The Rebirth 3-parter is one of my favorite episodes of the entire show. Except for the tag with Galvatron and Zarak bickering like a sitcom couple, it lent a nice sense of finality to the series. Optimus and the Autobots are home, the Decepticons have been evicted, and the lights are back on. Like you said, full circle.
> >
> > The whole business with the Headmasters and Targetmasters probably wasn't part of Vector Sigma's plan at all. It was probably thinking, "I'll tell Galvatron about the plasma energy key, and he'll build a gigantic rocket engine to move Cybertron into Earth's orbit to destroy it. Spike will show up at the last minute and shut down the plasma energy chamber, because Spike always saves the Transformers' collective asses. QED."
> Spike is consistently underrated. He's a human ally who punches far above his weight. And he's cool under fire: when every Transformer has been put into sleep mode, and the planet looks lost to the Quints, he doesn't panic, he simply grabs the Chosen One's blaster, hoists it over his shoulder, and coolly blows up the off switch while delivering a badass one-liner. You just can't find help like that these days.
> >
> > The only real variable is how lucid Galvatron is on any given day. He tried to just blow Cybertron up in "Chaos," so it's arguable that the idea of stealing enough energy to restore Cybertron to its glory days was more of a Megatron thing.
> Betting the survival of your planet and all its inhabitants on the chance that Galvatron is having a good mental health day seems...iffy at best.
>
> Maybe we were all better off under the Quints.

Really enjoying this thread, for what it's worth. :)

JB

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