"Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and
the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was
an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world
like blue mantles beneath the stars - Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea,
Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery,
Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem,
Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania, whose riders wore steel
and silk and gold.
But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in
the dreaming west. Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-
eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies
and gigantic mirth, to thread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his
sandalled feet."
So began "The Phoenix on the Sword", in the December 1932 issue of Weird
Tales, the first story of Conan the Barbarian to be published.
In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
would not have sold as well...

John Savard

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:53:23 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc quoted, in part:
> to thread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his
> sandalled feet.

Oops, tread!

I noticed Thoth-Amon, slave to Ascalante, says... "Had I not lost the Ring, our
positions might be reversed"...

and this led me to Google up a historical date. It turns out that The Hobbit was
first published in 1937, so that was not a source of inspiration here... being five
years too late.

John Savard

In article <69f77488-2b55-4b72-ac3e-2ec497ef32den@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:53:23 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc quoted, in part:
>> to thread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his
>> sandalled feet.
>
>Oops, tread!
>
>I noticed Thoth-Amon, slave to Ascalante, says... "Had I not lost the Ring, our
>positions might be reversed"...
>
>and this led me to Google up a historical date. It turns out that The Hobbit was
>first published in 1937, so that was not a source of inspiration here...
>being five
>years too late.

Magic rings go way back. Tolkien's goes back to the Ring of
Andvari. listed as 12th century but undoubtedly much older.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andvari

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 24/03/2022 09.21, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <69f77488-2b55-4b72-ac3e-2ec497ef32den@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>> I noticed Thoth-Amon, slave to Ascalante, says... "Had I not lost the Ring, our
>> positions might be reversed"...
>>
>> and this led me to Google up a historical date. It turns out that The Hobbit was
>> first published in 1937, so that was not a source of inspiration here...
>> being five
>> years too late.
>
> Magic rings go way back. Tolkien's goes back to the Ring of
> Andvari. listed as 12th century but undoubtedly much older.

The first time I encountered a magic ring was in Nesbit's _The
Enchanted Castle_. Funny thing is, the person who used it to
turn invisible didn't know that it was a magic ring, so she was
faking it. Until she stopped faking it and took off the ring and
still couldn't be seen.

<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?16010>
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:31:28 PM UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <69f77488-2b55-4b72...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:53:23 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc quoted, in part:
> >> to thread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his
> >> sandalled feet.
> >
> >Oops, tread!
> >
> >I noticed Thoth-Amon, slave to Ascalante, says... "Had I not lost the Ring, our
> >positions might be reversed"...
> >
> >and this led me to Google up a historical date. It turns out that The Hobbit was
> >first published in 1937, so that was not a source of inspiration here...
> >being five
> >years too late.
> Magic rings go way back. Tolkien's goes back to the Ring of
> Andvari. listed as 12th century but undoubtedly much older.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andvari
>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com
> Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Yes, much older - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges

On 2022-03-24, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and
> the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was
> an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world
> [...]
> So began "The Phoenix on the Sword", in the December 1932 issue of Weird
> Tales, the first story of Conan the Barbarian to be published.

Oh, so the opening lines from the _Conan the Barbarian_ movie are
partially cribbed from Howard. I didn't know that, but should have
guessed.

> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
> to me.

Looks Latin/Greek to me. Classical Mediterranean antiquity.

> If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names

I guess you are connecting "Aryas" to "Aryan"?

> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?

An earlier from of Basque was _a_ language spoken in pre-IE Europe.
We have fragmentary evidence from the Mediterranean for a handful
of others, and there must have been many more. I highly recommend
this article by Don Ringe:

"The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe"
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> An earlier from of Basque was _a_ language spoken in pre-IE Europe.
> We have fragmentary evidence from the Mediterranean for a handful
> of others,

Now that you mention it, I guess Etruscan would have been one.

> and there must have been many more. I highly recommend
> this article by Don Ringe:
>
> "The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe"
> https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980

John Savard

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:33:35 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> > An earlier from of Basque was _a_ language spoken in pre-IE Europe.
> > We have fragmentary evidence from the Mediterranean for a handful
> > of others,

> Now that you mention it, I guess Etruscan would have been one.

> > and there must have been many more. I highly recommend
> > this article by Don Ringe:
> >
> > "The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe"
> > https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980

and this article indeed mentions Etruscan, along with the Minoan
language preserved in the Linear A writings, and, as you note,
the Basque of the time, but also several others I had not heard of:

Eteocretan, Elymian, Lemnian, Raetic, Novilaran, Iberian, and Tartessian.

John Savard

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:40:54 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> > > "The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe"
> > > https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980

> and this article indeed mentions Etruscan, along with the Minoan
> language preserved in the Linear A writings, and, as you note,
> the Basque of the time, but also several others I had not heard of:

> Eteocretan, Elymian, Lemnian, Raetic, Novilaran, Iberian, and Tartessian.

While Hungarian and Finnish presumably descend from latecomers to
Europe, there's also Albanian, which reflects Illyrian and Thracian, which
may also be pre-IE in Europe as well.

The term "Novilaran" doesn't seem to be much used as a name for the
unknown language of the Novilara stele.

John Savard

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Oh, so the opening lines from the _Conan the Barbarian_ movie are
> partially cribbed from Howard. I didn't know that, but should have
> guessed.

Aside from the typo of "thread" for "tread", I edited Howard slightly,
changing "oh prince" to "O prince", and inserting a paragraph break after
"silk and gold", as one can see from going here:

https://archive.org/details/Weird_Tales_v20n06_1932-12_AT-sas/

or even, more directly, here:

https://archive.org/details/Weird_Tales_v20n06_1932-12_AT-sas/page/n49/mode/2up

John Savard

In article <e8929242-9d6a-49fc-8980-d588cc9d5a78n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:40:54 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:30:08 PM UTC-6, Christian Weisgerber
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe"
> > > > https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980
>
> > and this article indeed mentions Etruscan, along with the Minoan
> > language preserved in the Linear A writings, and, as you note,
> > the Basque of the time, but also several others I had not heard of:
>
> > Eteocretan, Elymian, Lemnian, Raetic, Novilaran, Iberian, and Tartessian.
>
> While Hungarian and Finnish presumably descend from latecomers to
> Europe, there's also Albanian, which reflects Illyrian and Thracian, which
> may also be pre-IE in Europe as well.
>

Albanian is an Indo-European language.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 11:05:31 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <e8929242-9d6a-49fc...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> > While Hungarian and Finnish presumably descend from latecomers to
> > Europe, there's also Albanian, which reflects Illyrian and Thracian, which
> > may also be pre-IE in Europe as well.

> Albanian is an Indo-European language.

Oh, dear. So it is. And here I thought it was so strange that it must also be
a language isolate, but, no, Illyrian and Thracian are both Indo-European,
so there isn't even a chance that Albanian might have been misclassified
due to borrowings from Slavic and Italian.

John Savard

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
> would not have sold as well...

Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.

--
-Jack

On 25/03/2022 10.25, Jack Bohn wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
>> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
>> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
>> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
>> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
>> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
>> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
>> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
>> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
>> would not have sold as well...
>
> Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?

This discussion is in Appendix F.II "On Translation"; first midway
through, and then a couple of notes at the end of the appendix.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd-8659-77e05f609387n@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
>> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
>> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
>> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
>> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
>> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
>> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
>> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
>> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
>> would not have sold as well...
>
>Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the
>Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
>I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.

Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
(and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
-a a masculine one.

So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.

And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
attributed to other legendary kings).

Froda is mentioned tangentially in _Beowulf_, when Beowulf and
Horthgar discuss the peace treaty between Hrother and Froda, to
be sealed by the marriage of Froda's son Ingeld and Horthgar's
daughter Freawaru (which doesn't come off, alas).

As for Samwise Gamgee and his father Hamfast, their names are
translations from the Westron for "half-wise, simple" and
"stay-at-home." I can't remember the exact Westron forms and I
won't try.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:21:29 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> >> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
> >> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
> >> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
> >> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
> >> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
> >> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
> >> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
> >> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
> >> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
> >> would not have sold as well...
> >
> >Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the
> >Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
> >I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.
> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
> -a a masculine one.
>
> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
>
> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> attributed to other legendary kings).

I can recall the same claim being made for a real king of Northumbria, or one of it's component parts, Bernicia or Deria in Bede's day or slightly earlier. Reference was made to the days of an earlier king, who may have been your Froda. I think this king was the Bretanwalda during Bernicia's brief possession of that title.

William Hyde

On 26/03/22 09:10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd-8659-77e05f609387n@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
>>> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
>>> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty Indo-European
>>> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
>>> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
>>> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
>>> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
>>> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
>>> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
>>> would not have sold as well...
>>
>> Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the
>> Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
>> I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.
>
> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
> -a a masculine one.
>
> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
>
> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> attributed to other legendary kings).
>

Wikipedia puts more emphasis on frod equalling "wise by experience" and
secondly what you say equalling peace as Frodo becomes a pacifist.

> Froda is mentioned tangentially in _Beowulf_, when Beowulf and
> Horthgar discuss the peace treaty between Hrother and Froda, to
> be sealed by the marriage of Froda's son Ingeld and Horthgar's
> daughter Freawaru (which doesn't come off, alas).
>
> As for Samwise Gamgee and his father Hamfast, their names are
> translations from the Westron for "half-wise, simple" and
> "stay-at-home." I can't remember the exact Westron forms and I
> won't try.
>

In article <527bf50b-1a5d-4528-8208-c6c0846b7f31n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:21:29 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >
>> >> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
>> >> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
>> >> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty
>Indo-European
>> >> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
>> >> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
>> >> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
>> >> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
>> >> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
>> >> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
>> >> would not have sold as well...
>> >
>> >Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the
>> >Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
>> >I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.
>> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
>> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
>> -a a masculine one.
>>
>> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
>>
>> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
>> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
>> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
>> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
>> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
>> attributed to other legendary kings).
>
>I can recall the same claim being made for a real king of Northumbria,
>or one of it's component parts, Bernicia or Deria in Bede's day or
>slightly earlier. Reference was made to the days of an earlier king,
>who may have been your Froda. I think this king was the Bretanwalda
>during Bernicia's brief possession of that title.

Hmmm! As I said above, the same claim is made of many kings, the
more legendary the better. I have a copy of Bede, translated
into modern English; if I can lay hands on it I'll see if I can
find him.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:16:30 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <527bf50b-1a5d-4528...@googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:21:29 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In addition to Conan himself, several other characters in the story are
> >> >> Prospero, Dion, Epemitreus, Pallantides, Rinaldo, and Publius.
> >> >> All these names, including that of Conan himself, sound pretty
> >Indo-European
> >> >> to me. If these stories are supposed to be of a time *before* the rise
> >> >> of the "sons of Aryas", shouldn't the characters in them have names
> >> >> like... Uftzi, Txomin, Yanamai, Garaitz... since the Basques were the last
> >> >> survivors of the people who inhabited Europe before the first wave of
> >> >> Indo-European invaders, the ancestors of the Celts, arrived?
> >> >> However, I suppose that a novel with a title like "Txomin the Barbarian"
> >> >> would not have sold as well...
> >> >
> >> >Doesn't it say, somewhere deep in the appendices of The Lord of the
> >> >Rings, that Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins weren't actually their names?
> >> >I hesitate to ascribe that to every book, it's so convenient.
> >> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
> >> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
> >> -a a masculine one.
> >>
> >> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
> >>
> >> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> >> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> >> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> >> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> >> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> >> attributed to other legendary kings).
> >
> >I can recall the same claim being made for a real king of Northumbria,
> >or one of it's component parts, Bernicia or Deria in Bede's day or
> >slightly earlier. Reference was made to the days of an earlier king,
> >who may have been your Froda. I think this king was the Bretanwalda
> >during Bernicia's brief possession of that title.
> Hmmm! As I said above, the same claim is made of many kings, the
> more legendary the better. I have a copy of Bede, translated
> into modern English; if I can lay hands on it I'll see if I can
> find him.

The wikipedia article on kings of Northumbria and Bernicia mentions no such legend. The closest match was Oswiu, who was Bretanwalda after the death of Penda, considered wise and just, and presided at the synod of Whitby.

William Hyde

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:16:30 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <527bf50b-1a5d-4528...@googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:21:29 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >
[...]
>> >> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
>> >> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
>> >> -a a masculine one.
>> >>
>> >> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
>> >>
>> >> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
>> >> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
>> >> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
>> >> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
>> >> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
>> >> attributed to other legendary kings).
>> >
>> >I can recall the same claim being made for a real king of Northumbria,
>> >or one of it's component parts, Bernicia or Deria in Bede's day or
>> >slightly earlier. Reference was made to the days of an earlier king,
>> >who may have been your Froda. I think this king was the Bretanwalda
>> >during Bernicia's brief possession of that title.
>> Hmmm! As I said above, the same claim is made of many kings, the
>> more legendary the better. I have a copy of Bede, translated
>> into modern English; if I can lay hands on it I'll see if I can
>> find him.
>
> The wikipedia article on kings of Northumbria and Bernicia mentions no
> such legend. The closest match was Oswiu, who was Bretanwalda after
> the death of Penda, considered wise and just, and presided at the
> synod of Whitby.

It is, indeed, in Bede and is attributed to King Edwin (of Bernicia and
Northumbria) in a section which, in the Penguin Classics edtion is book
two, chapter 16. It is slightly different from the above claim.

"So peaceful was it in those parts of Britain under King Edwin's
jurisdiction that the proverb still runs that a woman could carry her
new-born babe across the island from sea to sea without any fear of
harm."

--
Stephen Harker sjharker@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:10:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
>Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
>contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
>universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
>could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
>attributed to other legendary kings).

That story is also told in China in the time of Confucius where the
story was a NAKED virgin carrying a significant quantity of gold could
walk across the kingdom unmolested.

Not sure if that said more about Confucius or the Emperor at the time.

In article <9cpv3h53h9vhnbc9hd4bkvk9de27lpsaag@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:10:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> >Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> >contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> >universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> >could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> >attributed to other legendary kings).
>
> That story is also told in China in the time of Confucius where the
> story was a NAKED virgin carrying a significant quantity of gold could
> walk across the kingdom unmolested.
>

I have read claims that virgins could ride across much of the Mongol
empire on a mule carrying lots of gold.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Sunday, 27 March 2022 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <9cpv3h53h9vhnbc9h...@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:10:36 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > Heydt) wrote:
> >
> > >And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> > >Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> > >contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> > >universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> > >could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> > >attributed to other legendary kings).
> >
> > That story is also told in China in the time of Confucius where the
> > story was a NAKED virgin carrying a significant quantity of gold could
> > walk across the kingdom unmolested.

Never interrupt a virgin when she is making the mistake
of walking across the kingdom naked. Just watch and
appreciate.

> I have read claims that virgins could ride across much of the Mongol
> empire on a mule carrying lots of gold.

They had good mules, I guess. Fast ones maybe? I wouldn't
try the experiment.

> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

In article <9cpv3h53h9vhnbc9hd4bkvk9de27lpsaag@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:10:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
>>Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
>>contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
>>universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
>>could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
>>attributed to other legendary kings).
>
>That story is also told in China in the time of Confucius where the
>story was a NAKED virgin carrying a significant quantity of gold could
>walk across the kingdom unmolested.
>
>Not sure if that said more about Confucius or the Emperor at the time.

Well, as I said upthread, it's a widespread and variable tale.
When I took Alan Dundes' folklore class many years ago,
practically the first thing he said about folklore was that it
was characterize by multiple record and variation.

Which is why the American song "I Wonder as I wander" does not
qualife as folklore: it was recorded only once.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 5:36:55 PM UTC-4, Stephen Harker wrote:
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:16:30 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <527bf50b-1a5d-4528...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:21:29 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> >> In article <7a50c5bf-a956-47bd...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:53:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >> >
> [...]
> >> >> Yes. Deep in Appendices, Tolkien says that, contrary to English
> >> >> (and other modern European) usage, -o was a feminine marker and
> >> >> -a a masculine one.
> >> >>
> >> >> So the great Hobbits were actually named Bilba and Froda.
> >> >>
> >> >> And when I realized that, my hair tried to stand on end. Because
> >> >> Froda was a legendary king of the Northlands; his lifespan was
> >> >> contemporary with that of Christ; the _frodafrith_ was a time of
> >> >> universal peace durinh which a virgin carrying a bag of gold
> >> >> could walk unmolested from shore to shore (a tale that's also
> >> >> attributed to other legendary kings).
> >> >
> >> >I can recall the same claim being made for a real king of Northumbria,
> >> >or one of it's component parts, Bernicia or Deria in Bede's day or
> >> >slightly earlier. Reference was made to the days of an earlier king,
> >> >who may have been your Froda. I think this king was the Bretanwalda
> >> >during Bernicia's brief possession of that title.
> >> Hmmm! As I said above, the same claim is made of many kings, the
> >> more legendary the better. I have a copy of Bede, translated
> >> into modern English; if I can lay hands on it I'll see if I can
> >> find him.
> >
> > The wikipedia article on kings of Northumbria and Bernicia mentions no
> > such legend. The closest match was Oswiu, who was Bretanwalda after
> > the death of Penda, considered wise and just, and presided at the
> > synod of Whitby.
> It is, indeed, in Bede and is attributed to King Edwin (of Bernicia and
> Northumbria) in a section which, in the Penguin Classics edtion is book
> two, chapter 16. It is slightly different from the above claim.
>
> "So peaceful was it in those parts of Britain under King Edwin's
> jurisdiction that the proverb still runs that a woman could carry her
> new-born babe across the island from sea to sea without any fear of
> harm."

Thanks.

I seem to recall that he also had a series of roadside watering stations built, and it was considered
remarkable that the equipment was not stolen.

William Hyde