Magic is an extremely vague term that is less about defining a thing
than defining someone’s attitude toward the thing. Call something
“magic” and you are saying one of these things:

There is something about this I could never understand

There is something about this I don’t want to want to understand because
that would make it less special.

While I understand this thing just fine, I don’t want other people to
understand it.

There is something that we once thought we’d never understand and called
magic then, and are still calling “magic” out of force of habit.

Superpowers can certainly be regarded as “magic”. Some are called magic
by those who have them or give them. Some aren’t. Some are studied and
replicated in laboratory settings in their fictional realities. . Some
can’t be.

Either way, genre categorization is not as simple as “this setting has
“magic” so it is part of the fantasy genre”. Genre is determined by the
inspirations for the work in question. Are you being inspired by fairy
tales, by occultists, by Middle Earth, Conan the Barbarian or Lankhmar?
Then you are most likely writing fantasy.

Are you being influenced by recent scientific theories? Or out of date
scientific theories? Or even total pseudoscience that only pretended to
be science? Or by things that were already accepted as science fiction
like Doc Smith, Buck Rogers, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein or Star Trek?
Then you are probably writing science fiction.

So what were the initial inspirations for Superman?

The idea that the asteroid belt was the product of a planet exploding
and leaving fragments behind which used to be a scientific theory.

The idea that there might be life on other planets

The biological fact that life exists that can lift many times its own
body weight

A science fiction novel entitled “Gladiator”

So…is Superman science fiction? Oh heck no. While a case can be made
that Superman started as science fiction since then he’s run into more
“magic” than you shake a wand at and he lives in a fictional context
filled with things that are inspired by fairy tales, horror stories,
occultists and fantasy novels. Is he fantasy then? Not really. Could we
call it “science fantasy” a crossing of the genres? We can indeed, but
there’s a better option. You see I left out a few other inspirations for
Superman that tells us what his genre really is:

Zorro. Clark poses as a wimp but dons a costume and an alias to be his
true badass self

Doc Savage. The man of bronze, a pulp hero with inhuman strength and
intellect who likes to hang out in a “Fortress of Solitude” to take
breaks from his saving of the day.

The Phantom. Another costumed hero, and one who had his genesis in the
newspaper comic strips, the predecessor of the comic book superhero.

So…what genres do those inspirations point at? Why…superhero of course.
It is its own genre separate from science fiction, fantasy and mystery
fiction while taking inspiration from all three. Superman is his own
genre-defining thing. The first superhero and the reason why they’re
called that.

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Magic is an extremely vague term that is less about defining a thing
> than defining someone’s attitude toward the thing. Call something
> “magic” and you are saying one of these things:
>
> There is something about this I could never understand
>
> There is something about this I don’t want to want to understand because
> that would make it less special.
>
> While I understand this thing just fine, I don’t want other people to
> understand it.
>
> There is something that we once thought we’d never understand and called
> magic then, and are still calling “magic” out of force of habit.
>
> Superpowers can certainly be regarded as “magic”. Some are called magic
> by those who have them or give them. Some aren’t. Some are studied and
> replicated in laboratory settings in their fictional realities. . Some
> can’t be.
>
> Either way, genre categorization is not as simple as “this setting has
> “magic” so it is part of the fantasy genre”. Genre is determined by the
> inspirations for the work in question. Are you being inspired by fairy
> tales, by occultists, by Middle Earth, Conan the Barbarian or Lankhmar?
> Then you are most likely writing fantasy.
>
> Are you being influenced by recent scientific theories? Or out of date
> scientific theories? Or even total pseudoscience that only pretended to
> be science? Or by things that were already accepted as science fiction
> like Doc Smith, Buck Rogers, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein or Star Trek?
> Then you are probably writing science fiction.
>
> So what were the initial inspirations for Superman?
>
> The idea that the asteroid belt was the product of a planet exploding
> and leaving fragments behind which used to be a scientific theory.
>
> The idea that there might be life on other planets
>
> The biological fact that life exists that can lift many times its own
> body weight
>
> A science fiction novel entitled “Gladiator”
>
> So…is Superman science fiction? Oh heck no. While a case can be made
> that Superman started as science fiction since then he’s run into more
> “magic” than you shake a wand at and he lives in a fictional context
> filled with things that are inspired by fairy tales, horror stories,
> occultists and fantasy novels. Is he fantasy then? Not really. Could we
> call it “science fantasy” a crossing of the genres? We can indeed, but
> there’s a better option. You see I left out a few other inspirations for
> Superman that tells us what his genre really is:
>
> Zorro. Clark poses as a wimp but dons a costume and an alias to be his
> true badass self
>
> Doc Savage. The man of bronze, a pulp hero with inhuman strength and
> intellect who likes to hang out in a “Fortress of Solitude” to take
> breaks from his saving of the day.
>
> The Phantom. Another costumed hero, and one who had his genesis in the
> newspaper comic strips, the predecessor of the comic book superhero.
>
>
> So…what genres do those inspirations point at? Why…superhero of course.
> It is its own genre separate from science fiction, fantasy and mystery
> fiction while taking inspiration from all three. Superman is his own
> genre-defining thing. The first superhero and the reason why they’re
> called that.

FWIW, The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction says this about the provenance
of the Superheroes genre:

Superhero fiction is a genre based on many early models, but
which crystallized in Comics; since then it has infiltrated
the Cinema, Radio, Television and books. Stories involving
figures with super (or at the least extraordinary) powers,
and whose actions tend to keep the world safe, almost
certainly existed, in some form, before Alexandre Dumas (who
see for bibliography and detailed argument) created the Count
of Monte-Cristo in 1844, though his story was exceedingly
influential for the rest of the nineteenth century; and sf
stories of supermen go back to the beginning of the twentieth
century. As Claude Lalumière argues in his introduction to
Super Stories of Heroes & Villains (anth 2013), the paradigm
pre-Comics text is Philip Wylie's Gladiator (1930), which
established the "superhero" pattern first put into visual
form in Action Comics (June 1938), where the comic-book hero
Superman made his first appearance; he was soon given his
own comic.

https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/superheroes

Anyhow, the true reason for this followup is to note how the "Fortress
of Solitude" story element ranks as one of my favorites. (It probably
appeals to my inner hermit.)
Over the course of the TV show _Continuum_, Alec Sadler's own
Fortress evolves from a barn, to a sublet room in a shared house, to a
small, subterranean, state-of-the-art lab, to an opulent, multi-storied
corporate lab, and ultimately, in the original verse, to an apparent
anti-grav multi-storied solitary structure in midair above Vancouver.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

Hmm...

Fictional superhero scientist Reed Richards used to
claim that magic is just science that hasn't been
understood yet. Then a story ran where he had to do
magic and he learned that approaching it scientifically
didn't work. You had to approach it in the paradigm
of magic.

I'd say that a related concept is of "supernatural".
If you act upon the material world of matter and
energy and force using natural forces, matter,
energy, etc., that's one thing. Magneto of the
Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, for instance,
uses magnetism. He does it by pointing at things
and scowling, but it's still natural.

If you make things happen by your will /not/ by
using natural means, that's "supernatural".
For instance, Moses parting the Red Sea is
supernatural.

Some magic involves having your own supernatural
power and some consists of soliciting help from
a, um... naturally supernatural person. Such as
a demon.

This usually is considered distinct from religion -
which may be against magic, or not - I would say
because you're not regarding your supernatural
friend as a god.

If you're Harry Potter then you just say the words
and wave your wand. You aren't calling on strange
spirits. And Ben Aaronovitch's "Rivers of London"
setup has several types of magic, including
Harry Potter-ish traditionally male "practitioners"
who say a word and produce a feeling in their mind
but risk brain damage when they do it, traditionally
female witches (later) who look down on the
conceited men and vice versa, wrong on both sides,
people who have a more-or-less "natural" gift or
curse up to life-energy vampire, funny plants and
animals, and river gods, born and often died human
and now immortal (ish) and tremendously powerful,
especially with water. Which we're made of.
An "arrangement" is that police (!) don't bother
these gods and they mostly don't bother with people,
but they do intend to be worshipped if you want
a favour from them. "We used to get heads" says one
who remembers the time of druids, I think.

Now to return to superheroes and villains...
some of them ostensibly use technology or
scientifically recognised forces, or fictional
scientific forces, and some can simply will
an event to happen, which only differs from
magic by not bring called magic, but is
supernatural.

If a scientist gets involved then a scientific basis
for your superpower may be found. If you meet a
magician then obviously it's now a magic story, but
it doesn't make everybody who knows Dr. Strange
into a magic character.

Machine Man can fly, or levitate, but he does it
by "cancelling the gravity equation". That's math. :-)

In article <a55ebb3c-53d5-4e1c-a40b-64dbe02154f5n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Machine Man can fly, or levitate, but he does it
>by "cancelling the gravity equation". That's math. :-)

Sounds very Van Vogtian!

There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
advises, basically: Try not to think about it.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 24/03/2022 21.25, David Johnston wrote:
> Magic is an extremely vague term that is less about defining a thing than defining someone’s attitude toward the thing. Call something “magic” and you are saying one of these things:
>
> There is something about this I could never understand
>
> There is something about this I don’t want to want to understand because that would make it less special.
>
> While I understand this thing just fine, I don’t want other people to understand it.
>
> There is something that we once thought we’d never understand and called magic then, and are still calling “magic” out of force of habit.
>
> Superpowers can certainly be regarded as “magic”. Some are called magic by those who have them or give them. Some aren’t. Some are studied and replicated in laboratory settings in their fictional realities. . Some can’t be.

> So what were the initial inspirations for Superman?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Doc Savage (whom you mention
below) was at least a partial inspiration.

> So…is Superman science fiction? Oh heck no. While a case can be made that Superman started as science fiction since then he’s run into more “magic” than you shake a wand at

When I read comic books (over half a century back), Supes was powerless
against magic. If his powers are magical, it creates a quandary.

> Zorro. Clark poses as a wimp but dons a costume and an alias to be his true badass self
>
> Doc Savage. The man of bronze, a pulp hero with inhuman strength and intellect who likes to hang out in a “Fortress of Solitude” to take breaks from his saving of the day.

His given name was, of course, "Clark".

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.

On 25/03/2022 07.16, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <a55ebb3c-53d5-4e1c-a40b-64dbe02154f5n@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> Machine Man can fly, or levitate, but he does it
>> by "cancelling the gravity equation". That's math. :-)
>
> Sounds very Van Vogtian!
>
> There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
> Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
> the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
> advises, basically: Try not to think about it.

Since Wasp is a big fan of Doc Smith, I'm guessing that this is a
shoutout to _The Skylark of Space_. In roughly Chapter 10, Seaton
says that their observed velocity is a fact, while SR is a theory,
which can be refuted by facts.

--
Michael F. Stemper
No animals were harmed in the composition of this message.

In article <t1kh6r$gpm$2@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 25/03/2022 07.16, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <a55ebb3c-53d5-4e1c-a40b-64dbe02154f5n@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Machine Man can fly, or levitate, but he does it
>>> by "cancelling the gravity equation". That's math. :-)
>>
>> Sounds very Van Vogtian!
>>
>> There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
>> Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
>> the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
>> advises, basically: Try not to think about it.
>
>Since Wasp is a big fan of Doc Smith, I'm guessing that this is a
>shoutout to _The Skylark of Space_. In roughly Chapter 10, Seaton
>says that their observed velocity is a fact, while SR is a theory,
>which can be refuted by facts.
>

Quite possibly given the name of the ship! However in this setting SR
probably applies to *everybody else*.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 25/03/2022 09.06, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <t1kh6r$gpm$2@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 07.16, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

>>> There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
>>> Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
>>> the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
>>> advises, basically: Try not to think about it.
>>
>> Since Wasp is a big fan of Doc Smith, I'm guessing that this is a
>> shoutout to _The Skylark of Space_. In roughly Chapter 10, Seaton
>> says that their observed velocity is a fact, while SR is a theory,
>> which can be refuted by facts.
>>
>
> Quite possibly given the name of the ship!

I don't know the name of the ship, since the first two in the series
are still waiting to be read. However, it shouldn't have taken a
cluebat for me to catch on, since your post mentions Duquesne.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

In article <t1kova$k7d$2@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 25/03/2022 09.06, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <t1kh6r$gpm$2@dont-email.me>,
>> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 07.16, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
>>>> There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
>>>> Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
>>>> the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
>>>> advises, basically: Try not to think about it.
>>>
>>> Since Wasp is a big fan of Doc Smith, I'm guessing that this is a
>>> shoutout to _The Skylark of Space_. In roughly Chapter 10, Seaton
>>> says that their observed velocity is a fact, while SR is a theory,
>>> which can be refuted by facts.
>>>
>>
>> Quite possibly given the name of the ship!
>
>I don't know the name of the ship, since the first two in the series
>are still waiting to be read. However, it shouldn't have taken a
>cluebat for me to catch on, since your post mentions Duquesne.
>

Well, if you're thinking what I'm thinking you're thinking, you're
not *quite* right -- It's what I expected too, but the ship is
actually the "Doc Smith".
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 25/03/2022 11.21, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <t1kova$k7d$2@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 09.06, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

>>> Quite possibly given the name of the ship!
>>
>> I don't know the name of the ship, since the first two in the series
>> are still waiting to be read. However, it shouldn't have taken a
>> cluebat for me to catch on, since your post mentions Duquesne.
>
> Well, if you're thinking what I'm thinking you're thinking, you're

No, all I was thinking was "I should really read them one of these
months."

Were you thinking that I was thinking _Capital D_?

> not *quite* right -- It's what I expected too, but the ship is
> actually the "Doc Smith".

That's awesome!

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

On Friday, 25 March 2022 at 13:48:15 UTC, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 07.16, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <a55ebb3c-53d5-4e1c...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Machine Man can fly, or levitate, but he does it
> >> by "cancelling the gravity equation". That's math. :-)
> >
> > Sounds very Van Vogtian!
> >
> > There's an amusing moment in the latest Arena book where Duquesne and
> > Sandrison have managed to achieve real FTL in the universe outside
> > the Arena and Sandrison is all "but how this and how that!?" and Duquesne
> > advises, basically: Try not to think about it.
> Since Wasp is a big fan of Doc Smith, I'm guessing that this is a
> shoutout to _The Skylark of Space_. In roughly Chapter 10, Seaton
> says that their observed velocity is a fact, while SR is a theory,
> which can be refuted by facts.

IIRC in Skylark it's when the baddies have abducted Seaton's
fiancee and/or his spaceship and are accidentally accelerating
at full power across the universe, and Seaton and Crane on Earth
have a range and direction detector giving this rather unbelievable
indication of the fact.