In article <0cf7d584-49d4-41e1-a813-43a76a7393abn@googlegroups.com>,
"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> > > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
> > <SNIP!>
> > > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
> > > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
> > > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
> > > > >>> themselves.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I hold that...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just like for people and their names
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
> > > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
> > > > Precisely.
> > > >
> > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
> > > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
> > > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
> > > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
> > > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
> > > > Yup.
> > >
> > > What do you call the capital of France?
> > Isn't this a pronunciation question.
>
> By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."
>
> > > What do you call the country to the east of France?
> > Which country to the east? I count five.
>
> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?

I am not the person who you were directly replying to.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 25 March 2022 at 14:40:33 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> > In article <a6c27de7-edd0-46c6...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>> > > > On 2022-03-24 9:04 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> > > > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:58:09 -0700, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> On 2022-03-23 9:45 p.m., Robert Woodward wrote:
>> > <SNIP!>
>> > > > >>> I suspect that I am even grumpier than you, because I hold that the
>> > > > >>> names are Bombay and Burma and those who say otherwise are either
>> > > > >>> deferring to people unworthy of deference or are those people
>> > > > >>> themselves.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I hold that...
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Just like for people and their names
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ...those places are named what the people who live there call it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > At the end of the day, this is about /politeness/, or perhaps better
>> > > > > /courtesy/, not ideology.
>> > > > Precisely.
>> > > >
>> > <snip>
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On another group, we had a guy who ridiculed a spelling of a common
>> > > > > name because it "wasn't right". It turned out that his country (in
>> > > > > Europe) was one of those with an Official List of Allowed Baby Names
>> > > > > -- and, when that list was consulted, a form of that name /with the
>> > > > > spelling he objected to/ was found on it.
>> > > > Yup.
>> > >
>> > > What do you call the capital of France?
>> > Isn't this a pronunciation question.
>> By your rule, pronunciation counts. "It's just good manners."
>> > > What do you call the country to the east of France?
>> > Which country to the east? I count five.
>> Evading the question when you are caught in self contradiction?
>>
>> The country I spoke of is, of course, called 'Deutschland' by its
>> inhabitants, and by your rule you should call it that whenever you
>> speak or write about it. But I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that when
>> it comes up in normal English discussion that you call it 'Germany'.
>>
>> Do you claim otherwise?
>
>It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
>"Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
>incorporated Austria. If the Soviet Union's version
>was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
>extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
>could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
>at all times.

"Germany" comes from the Latin "Germania", which may be what the Celts
called it.

And consulting a Bing translation box (from Microsoft Translator)
shows that the Russian word for "Deutschland" is, in fact, "Germania"
(in Cyrillic transcription, of course).

I suppose this could have been different in Stalin's time, but I doubt
it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2022-03-26, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> "Germany" comes from the Latin "Germania", which may be what the Celts
> called it.
>
> And consulting a Bing translation box (from Microsoft Translator)

Just go to the Wikipedia article and look at the links to other
language editions.

> shows that the Russian word for "Deutschland" is, in fact, "Germania"
> (in Cyrillic transcription, of course).

Ukrainian is "Nimechchina". The Slavic languages are split between
borrowing the Latin designation for the country or applying the
inherited Slavic term--which originally meant something like "mute".

"Because of Germany's long history before 1871 as a non-united
region of distinct tribes and states, there are many widely varying
names of Germany in different languages, more so than for any other
European nation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany

With this map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Name_European_Languages.svg

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> schrieb:

> It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
> "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
> incorporated Austria.

Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.

In 1919, Austria found itself minus an empire, and there was
a strong movement to unite with Germany, which was thwarted
by the treaty of Saint-Germain (which demonstrated that
self-determination was not for everybody).

> If the Soviet Union's version
> was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
> extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
> could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
> at all times.

Except that "Dutch" was already taken up by the Netherlands.

On Saturday, 26 March 2022 at 19:28:57 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
> > It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
> > "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
> > incorporated Austria.
> Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
> but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
> was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.

Was there a difference of religion? I thought
I'd read that it got in the way of all "being German"
together.

> In 1919, Austria found itself minus an empire, and there was
> a strong movement to unite with Germany, which was thwarted
> by the treaty of Saint-Germain (which demonstrated that
> self-determination was not for everybody).
>
> > If the Soviet Union's version
> > was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
> > extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
> > could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
> > at all times.
>
> Except that "Dutch" was already taken up by the Netherlands.

Not a problem. Most parts of The Leader Of The Free World
are named after places in other countries. York, Jersey,
Washington, Paris, Rome, Glasgow ;-)

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> schrieb:
> On Saturday, 26 March 2022 at 19:28:57 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
>> > It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
>> > "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
>> > incorporated Austria.
>> Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
>> but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
>> was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.
>
> Was there a difference of religion? I thought
> I'd read that it got in the way of all "being German"
> together.

Prussia was mostly Protestant. Southern Germany (especially
Bavaria) was mainly Catholic, but that played no decisive role in
German unification in 1871.

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 6:06:56 PM UTC-4, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
> > On Saturday, 26 March 2022 at 19:28:57 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> >> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
> >> > It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
> >> > "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
> >> > incorporated Austria.
> >> Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
> >> but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
> >> was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.
> >
> > Was there a difference of religion? I thought
> > I'd read that it got in the way of all "being German"
> > together.
> Prussia was mostly Protestant. Southern Germany (especially
> Bavaria) was mainly Catholic, but that played no decisive role in
> German unification in 1871.
It sort of mattered earlier, though. One historian's contention is that the thirty years war effectively
killed whatever was left of the German empire, but created the Catholic Austrian empire. Didn't do much for Brandenburg/Prussia, but the memory of being carelessly occupied by Austrians, Swedes, Bavarians, etc, may have helped shape the dynasty's future attitudes.

William Hyde

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 18:26:11 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>On 2022-03-26, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

Lost, apparently, is the minor detail that I was responding to the
assertion that, had the Soviet Union used "Germany", the USA would be
using "Deutschland". Please at least /try/ to keep one eye on the
ball.

>> "Germany" comes from the Latin "Germania", which may be what the Celts
>> called it.
>>
>> And consulting a Bing translation box (from Microsoft Translator)
>
>Just go to the Wikipedia article and look at the links to other
>language editions.

The issue was /Soviet/ terminology; the /Soviet Union/ spoke
/Russian/.

>> shows that the Russian word for "Deutschland" is, in fact, "Germania"
>> (in Cyrillic transcription, of course).
>
>Ukrainian is "Nimechchina". The Slavic languages are split between
>borrowing the Latin designation for the country or applying the
>inherited Slavic term--which originally meant something like "mute".

And the word for "a German" in Russian is, in fact, "nemetz"
(transcribing from the Cyrillic), which does indeed mean "mute". The
plural is for the people.

But the /country/, that is, what is being discussed here, is
"Germania" (in Cyrillic).

This, we were told, was because the Germans were the first people the
Slavs encountered when they expanded to the West many many centuries
ago that they could not understand (because they didn't speak a Slavic
language).

>"Because of Germany's long history before 1871 as a non-united
>region of distinct tribes and states, there are many widely varying
>names of Germany in different languages, more so than for any other
>European nation."
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany
>
>With this map:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Name_European_Languages.svg

Which clearly shows "Germanija" (which, in Cyrillic, would look the
same as "Germania", as the "j" is part of the soft "a" -- this is the
sort of thing that causes transcriptions to differ).

So I don't really see that this pertains to the topic-at-hand. Unless
it documents a /different/ name used under, say, Stalin.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 26 March 2022 at 19:28:57 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
>> > It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
>> > "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
>> > incorporated Austria.
>> Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
>> but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
>> was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.
>
>Was there a difference of religion? I thought
>I'd read that it got in the way of all "being German"
>together.
>
>> In 1919, Austria found itself minus an empire, and there was
>> a strong movement to unite with Germany, which was thwarted
>> by the treaty of Saint-Germain (which demonstrated that
>> self-determination was not for everybody).
>>
>> > If the Soviet Union's version
>> > was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
>> > extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
>> > could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
>> > at all times.
>>
>> Except that "Dutch" was already taken up by the Netherlands.
>
>Not a problem. Most parts of The Leader Of The Free World
>are named after places in other countries. York, Jersey,
>Washington, Paris, Rome, Glasgow ;-)

And "Pennsylvania Dutch Country" after Deutschland.

More or less.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:542145d6-b545-4679-a834-fabc90ed5008n@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 12:01:28 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 18:26:11 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>> <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2022-03-26, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid>
>> >wrote:
>> Lost, apparently, is the minor detail that I was responding to
>> the assertion that, had the Soviet Union used "Germany", the
>> USA would be using "Deutschland". Please at least /try/ to keep
>> one eye on the ball.
>
> Seeing as Americans have been calling it Germany for nearly 250
> years, long before Karl Marx, let alone the Soviet Union
> existed, I find that highly improbable.
>
And Romans called "Germania" 2,000 years ago.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 09:09:31 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, 26 March 2022 at 19:28:57 UTC, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb:
>>> > It's rather an accident, though. The evolution of
>>> > "Germany" is complicated. Hitler's version
>>> > incorporated Austria.
>>> Up to 1866, there was no question that Austrians were anything
>>> but German, both politically and culturally. The German Confederation
>>> was dissolved in 1866 as a result of the Autro-Prussian war.
>>
>>Was there a difference of religion? I thought
>>I'd read that it got in the way of all "being German"
>>together.
>>
>>> In 1919, Austria found itself minus an empire, and there was
>>> a strong movement to unite with Germany, which was thwarted
>>> by the treaty of Saint-Germain (which demonstrated that
>>> self-determination was not for everybody).
>>>
>>> > If the Soviet Union's version
>>> > was named "Germanie", which I suppose to be
>>> > extremely unlikely to have happened, The Free World
>>> > could well have called "their" Germany "Deutschland"
>>> > at all times.
>>>
>>> Except that "Dutch" was already taken up by the Netherlands.
>>
>>Not a problem. Most parts of The Leader Of The Free World
>>are named after places in other countries. York, Jersey,
>>Washington, Paris, Rome, Glasgow ;-)
>
>And "Pennsylvania Dutch Country" after Deutschland.
>
>More or less.

I can't speak for the PENNSYLVANIA "Dutch" but what you say is
certainly true of the "Dutch" in the Rennsalaer Co., NY (basically the
E side of the Hudson near Albany) which is where my direct line
forebears came from.

We >believe< they originated in the German section of that region but
in those days (17th century / early 18th) borders were rather more
flexible than now and many were born in German areas who spoke a Dutch
dialect and vice versa.

The most famous of those from such families was of course Ludwig van
Beethoven (yes Van not Von) whose family was thoroughly Germanized and
was in Bonn (not all that far away from their home region) by the
great one's birth.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:03:07 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 12:01:28 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 18:26:11 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>> <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2022-03-26, Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> Lost, apparently, is the minor detail that I was responding to the
>> assertion that, had the Soviet Union used "Germany", the USA would be
>> using "Deutschland". Please at least /try/ to keep one eye on the
>> ball.
>
>Seeing as Americans have been calling it Germany for nearly 250 years,
>long before Karl Marx, let alone the Soviet Union existed, I find that
>highly improbable.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

You do realize I was refuting the assertion, right?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."