Ringworld (Ringworld, volume 1) by Larry Niven

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/all-the-single-ladies

Two humans and two aliens demonstrate how not to explore a
vast, enigmatic artifact.
--
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In article <t3h0f3$sl2$1@reader1.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>Ringworld (Ringworld, volume 1) by Larry Niven
>
>https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/all-the-single-ladies
>
>Two humans and two aliens demonstrate how not to explore a
>vast, enigmatic artifact.

In retrospect I wonder how much of Ringworld Engineers was Niven
going to back to "fix" having inadvertently made a woman the
centre of the universe.

It's interesting that Niven seems to have evolved from people
posting here that he should retire from writing (which was a
thing 20 years ago) to his books appearing without making a
ripple. Still, someone must be buying his stuff or it would
not get published.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2022-04-17, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

> Ringworld (Ringworld, volume 1) by Larry Niven
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/all-the-single-ladies

_Ringworld_ is the capstone to Niven's Known Universe stories. You
really need to have read them before. If you take _Ringworld_ as
the start of something, you'll be confused and possibly disappointed.

Beyond that, yeah, it's a Big Dumb Object novel. The last time I
read _Ringworld_, I re-discovered that there is a plot, but I have
completely forgotten it again since.

I am not surprised that people have been continuously failing to
develop it into a movie or a TV show.

Also, the _Ringworld_ sequels are not worth your time.
_The Ringworld Engineers_ provides some patches to cover up the
holes in Niven's original Ringworld design, but it also brings
_Protector_ into the main line of Known Space continuity, which was
a terrible idea.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

In article <slrnt5olfe.k85.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-04-17, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Ringworld (Ringworld, volume 1) by Larry Niven
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/all-the-single-ladies
>
>_Ringworld_ is the capstone to Niven's Known Universe stories. You
>really need to have read them before. If you take _Ringworld_ as
>the start of something, you'll be confused and possibly disappointed.
>
>Beyond that, yeah, it's a Big Dumb Object novel. The last time I
>read _Ringworld_, I re-discovered that there is a plot, but I have
>completely forgotten it again since.
>
>I am not surprised that people have been continuously failing to
>develop it into a movie or a TV show.

There was a roleplaying game, though, which despite various issues
is an interesting read.

>Also, the _Ringworld_ sequels are not worth your time.
>_The Ringworld Engineers_ provides some patches to cover up the
>holes in Niven's original Ringworld design, but it also brings
>_Protector_ into the main line of Known Space continuity, which was
>a terrible idea.
>
Plus Engineers answers the wrong question. The Ringworld has to have
stabilizers, or it would be long gone. The real question is why choose
a habitat design that lets one scuttle the place on almost no notice?

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:47:05 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> It's interesting that Niven seems to have evolved from people
> posting here that he should retire from writing (which was a
> thing 20 years ago) to his books appearing without making a
> ripple. Still, someone must be buying his stuff or it would
> not get published.

Is it even his stuff anymore? I get the impression that he is listed as co-author but the actual writing is done by someone else.

Brian

In article <2e738d05-415a-4114-b568-d25568dcdfc4n@googlegroups.com>,
Default User <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:47:05 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> It's interesting that Niven seems to have evolved from people
>> posting here that he should retire from writing (which was a
>> thing 20 years ago) to his books appearing without making a
>> ripple. Still, someone must be buying his stuff or it would
>> not get published.
>
>Is it even his stuff anymore? I get the impression that he is listed as
>co-author but the actual writing is done by someone else.

The most recent Niven I read was a Dream Park book in which the
book couldn't seem to make up its mind whether the impending
ejection from power of an African dictator in favour of
another try at democracy was good or bad, almost as though
the two authors disagreed. Pretty sure he wrote parts of that
one. But that was ten years ago.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 4/17/2022 6:23 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <2e738d05-415a-4114-b568-d25568dcdfc4n@googlegroups.com>,
> Default User <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:47:05 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>> It's interesting that Niven seems to have evolved from people
>>> posting here that he should retire from writing (which was a
>>> thing 20 years ago) to his books appearing without making a
>>> ripple. Still, someone must be buying his stuff or it would
>>> not get published.
>>
>> Is it even his stuff anymore? I get the impression that he is listed as
>> co-author but the actual writing is done by someone else.
>
> The most recent Niven I read was a Dream Park book in which the
> book couldn't seem to make up its mind whether the impending
> ejection from power of an African dictator in favour of
> another try at democracy was good or bad, almost as though
> the two authors disagreed. Pretty sure he wrote parts of that
> one. But that was ten years ago.
>
The third 'Bowl of Heaven' book, 'Glorious' by Niven and Gregory Benford
came out last year. Benford isn't someone I would think would need a
boost by putting Niven's name on a book where he did all the actual writing.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 8:23:03 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:

> The most recent Niven I read was a Dream Park book in which the
> book couldn't seem to make up its mind whether the impending
> ejection from power of an African dictator in favour of
> another try at democracy was good or bad, almost as though
> the two authors disagreed. Pretty sure he wrote parts of that
> one. But that was ten years ago.

The Moon Maze. I agree that was a bit of a muddled mess. I read through the "Fleet of Worlds" books, and it really didn't sound much like Niven. I'm not too familiar with Ed Lerner, his co-author.

Brian

On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 8:59:38 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> The third 'Bowl of Heaven' book, 'Glorious' by Niven and Gregory Benford
> came out last year. Benford isn't someone I would think would need a
> boost by putting Niven's name on a book where he did all the actual writing.

In the case of a sequel, there might have been contractual reasons. Or maybe it was a real collaboration. I haven't read it, so I can't further much opinion.

Brian

begin fnord
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:

> _Ringworld_ is the capstone to Niven's Known Universe stories. You
> really need to have read them before. If you take _Ringworld_ as
> the start of something, you'll be confused and possibly disappointed.

My first Niven was actually _The Ringworld Engineers_ and it hooked me,
but it is not the gateway drug I would recommend.

> Also, the _Ringworld_ sequels are not worth your time.
> _The Ringworld Engineers_ provides some patches to cover up the
> holes in Niven's original Ringworld design, but it also brings
> _Protector_ into the main line of Known Space continuity, which was
> a terrible idea.

_Protector_ had Lucas Garner in it, if I recall, so that K'kree was
already out of the stable.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> Plus Engineers answers the wrong question. The Ringworld has to have
> stabilizers, or it would be long gone. The real question is why choose
> a habitat design that lets one scuttle the place on almost no notice?

That, and why would anyone believe Protectors would put twenty-three
fuckzillion breeders into one very fragile basket?

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

In article <m2mtgi75pv.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:
>
>> _Ringworld_ is the capstone to Niven's Known Universe stories. You
>> really need to have read them before. If you take _Ringworld_ as
>> the start of something, you'll be confused and possibly disappointed.
>
>My first Niven was actually _The Ringworld Engineers_ and it hooked me,
>but it is not the gateway drug I would recommend.

A bookseller once made the case that the best book to give to a reader
to tempt them to read more Niven is the collection Neutron Star.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:23:22 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <m2mtgi7...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:

> >My first Niven was actually _The Ringworld Engineers_ and it hooked me,
> >but it is not the gateway drug I would recommend.
> A bookseller once made the case that the best book to give to a reader
> to tempt them to read more Niven is the collection Neutron Star.

I would agree with that. I thought it was somewhat better than Tales of Known Space.

Brian

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 10:50:08 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
> > Plus Engineers answers the wrong question. The Ringworld has to have
> > stabilizers, or it would be long gone. The real question is why choose
> > a habitat design that lets one scuttle the place on almost no notice?
> That, and why would anyone believe Protectors would put twenty-three
> fuckzillion breeders into one very fragile basket?

I never thought that the Protectors as described made any sense, certainly not biologically. That's why I prefer the theory that they were bio-engineered from Earth hominid stock, along with the Tree of Life virus, by an advanced species. Then those breeders would could be a vast reserve of bodies that could be converted to Protectors as needed.

Brian

Default User wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:23:22 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <m2mtgi7...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> > Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>
> > >My first Niven was actually _The Ringworld Engineers_ and it hooked me,
> > >but it is not the gateway drug I would recommend.
> > A bookseller once made the case that the best book to give to a reader
> > to tempt them to read more Niven is the collection Neutron Star.
> I would agree with that. I thought it was somewhat better than Tales of Known Space.

I suspect _Neutron Star_ was made by selecting the stories that would make a good Known Space collection; _Tales_ was made by reprinting the Known Space stories that hadn't been already.

Besides reading "Neutron Star" in _The Hugo Winners_, and seeing "The Soft Weapon" on STAR TREK, _Ringworld_ was my introduction to Known Space. The jam-packedness of it was a turn on, not a turn off!

--
-Jack

begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> A bookseller once made the case that the best book to give to a reader
> to tempt them to read more Niven is the collection Neutron Star.

I cannot argue with that.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
> > Plus Engineers answers the wrong question. The Ringworld has to have
> > stabilizers, or it would be long gone. The real question is why choose
> > a habitat design that lets one scuttle the place on almost no notice?

> That, and why would anyone believe Protectors would put twenty-three
> fuckzillion breeders into one very fragile basket?

Well, put a coupla zillion breeders, and let nature take its course.
The word "scuttle" puts me in mind of the criticism of the Pioneer plaque and Voyager record: "Never let them know where the home system is!" There are a lot of dangerous things in Known Space (fortunately, mostly outside the known space part of the Known Space universe). How are Protectors with xenoarcheology? I would guess they might have found a Slaver stasis box or two, would they know how and why and importantly, that the Slavers are no more? (There's an interesting question: would other races know how the Slavers ruled a galaxy without our experience with a living specimen? Well, we probably blabbed to everybody.) I'm guessing the main point in Protector xeno-anything is how to kill it to keep their breeders safe. The most efficient thing would seem to be to Chicxulub the planet, but if you don't have time to wait for the biosphere to calm down after that you may just take on each apex predator as it attacks.

Wait, what is the history of Ringworld? Hrarloprillar and her crew (long-lived and relativistically preserved) thought of themselves as masters of their fate and captains of their soul, were they evolved from breeders on other planets around Ringworld, or on the Ringworld? See the question about how civilization can arise on Ringworld, and not many Protector artifacts could survive to jumpstart it. However, some planet sort of paralleling Earth history and then discovering Ringworld would get a bit of a shock. Hmm.... if they discovered very nearly human beings on many nearby star systems before discovering Ringworld, they might have some myth about themselves as a sort of reborn super Roman empire or somesuch.

--
-Jack

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 10:51:19 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> Steve Coltrin wrote:
> > begin fnord
> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
> >
> > > Plus Engineers answers the wrong question. The Ringworld has to have
> > > stabilizers, or it would be long gone. The real question is why choose
> > > a habitat design that lets one scuttle the place on almost no notice?
>
> > That, and why would anyone believe Protectors would put twenty-three
> > fuckzillion breeders into one very fragile basket?
> Well, put a coupla zillion breeders, and let nature take its course.
> The word "scuttle" puts me in mind of the criticism of the Pioneer plaque and Voyager record: "Never let them know where the home system is!" There are a lot of dangerous things in Known Space (fortunately, mostly outside the known space part of the Known Space universe). How are Protectors with xenoarcheology? I would guess they might have found a Slaver stasis box or two, would they know how and why and importantly, that the Slavers are no more? (There's an interesting question: would other races know how the Slavers ruled a galaxy without our experience with a living specimen? Well, we probably blabbed to everybody.) I'm guessing the main point in Protector xeno-anything is how to kill it to keep their breeders safe. The most efficient thing would seem to be to Chicxulub the planet, but if you don't have time to wait for the biosphere to calm down after that you may just take on each apex predator as it attacks.
>
> Wait, what is the history of Ringworld? Hrarloprillar and her crew (long-lived and relativistically preserved) thought of themselves as masters of their fate and captains of their soul, were they evolved from breeders on other planets around Ringworld, or on the Ringworld? See the question about how civilization can arise on Ringworld, and not many Protector artifacts could survive to jumpstart it. However, some planet sort of paralleling Earth history and then discovering Ringworld would get a bit of a shock. Hmm... if they discovered very nearly human beings on many nearby star systems before discovering Ringworld, they might have some myth about themselves as a sort of reborn super Roman empire or somesuch.

The Niven/Lerner "Fleet of Worlds" subseries has a good deal to say about the Ringworld, its origin and later history, but some of it is speculation by the characters, not Word of God exegesis.

Its a strange set of stories, which cast many of the early, classic Niven-only stories in quite a different light.

pt

On 18/04/2022 19.23, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <m2mtgi75pv.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
>> begin fnord
>> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:
>>
>>> _Ringworld_ is the capstone to Niven's Known Universe stories. You
>>> really need to have read them before. If you take _Ringworld_ as
>>> the start of something, you'll be confused and possibly disappointed.
>>
>> My first Niven was actually _The Ringworld Engineers_ and it hooked me,
>> but it is not the gateway drug I would recommend.
>
> A bookseller once made the case that the best book to give to a reader
> to tempt them to read more Niven is the collection Neutron Star.

I completely agree. I think that that collection is among Niven's
best work.

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

On 2022-04-19, Default User <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I never thought that the Protectors as described made any sense, certainly not biologically.

I thought _Protector_ was a wry joke. It's a non-canonical offshoot
from Known Space. _Ringworld_ was the last Known Space story,
_Protector_ is a coda. The end.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:54:08 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>On 2022-04-19, Default User <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I never thought that the Protectors as described made any sense, certainly not biologically.
>
>I thought _Protector_ was a wry joke. It's a non-canonical offshoot
>from Known Space. _Ringworld_ was the last Known Space story,
>_Protector_ is a coda. The end.

Phssthpok appeared in 1967, around the middle of the period during
which Larry Niven was writing the Known Space stories. Look for "The
Adults".

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 10:51:19 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:

>> Wait, what is the history of Ringworld? Hrarloprillar and
>> her crew (long-lived and relativistically preserved) thought of
>> themselves as masters of their fate and captains of their soul,
>> were they evolved from breeders on other planets around Ringworld,
>> or on the Ringworld? See the question about how civilization
>> can arise on Ringworld, and not many Protector artifacts could
>> survive to jumpstart it. However, some planet sort of paralleling
>> Earth history and then discovering Ringworld would get a bit of a
>> shock. Hmm... if they discovered very nearly human beings on many
>> nearby star systems before discovering Ringworld, they might have
>> some myth about themselves as a sort of reborn super Roman empire
>> or somesuch.

> The Niven/Lerner "Fleet of Worlds" subseries has a good deal to
> say about the Ringworld, its origin and later history, but some
> of it is speculation by the characters, not Word of God exegesis.

It seemed a bit strange to me, too.

> Its a strange set of stories, which cast many of the early,
> classic Niven-only stories in quite a different light.

I read one or two of the books, and can't say I liked them.
Seemed a bit like everything that Niven had written all about
Known Space that he knew how to write (and more, given the later
Ringworld novels), and the authors were trying to squeeze in a
different backstory without too much concern about continuity
or even the spirit of Known Space.