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arts / rec.arts.comics.strips / Re: xkcd: Crepe

SubjectAuthor
* xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeAlan
|`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
| `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|   `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|    |`- Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeThomas Koenig
|    `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|     `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|      `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|       `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|        `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|         `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|          `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           | `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           |   `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|            `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|             `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
||`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| | | +* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeScott Lurndal
|| | | |`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| | | `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |  `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |   `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |`* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    | `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |  `- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |+- Re: xkcd: CrepeThomas Koenig
|| | |    |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    `- Re: xkcd: CrepeJohn W Kennedy
|| | `* Re: xkcd: Cre^peJoy Beeson
|| |  `- Re: xkcd: Cre^peJohn W Kennedy
|| +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
|`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
 `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
  `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
   `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire

Pages:123
Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<quuq6ltan36a$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 02:27 UTC

* Lynn McGuire:

> On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
> Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8.

That's doesn't fall under the normal interpretation of "handle with 8
bits" for me.

--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<e8jbli-ouk.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>

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From: grschm...@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 14:00:49 +1000
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 by: Gary R. Schmidt - Tue, 17 May 2022 04:00 UTC

On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>
>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ)
>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>
>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>
>>      Cheers,
>>          Gary    B-)
>
> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>
UNICODE?? It's a joke, Joyce. (If only it was!!)

And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
understanding) of UNICODE for decades.

The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
time and date.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Re: Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:24 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
>Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>code is dicey at best though.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
>

UTF-8 _is_ unicode. There are many possible encodings for unicode,
UTF-8 is the most common outside of windows, which uses UTF-16 by
default.

And Clarke is correct, you cannot represent Chinese in 8 bits, even
when using UTF-8 encoding.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: John W Kennedy - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:59 UTC

On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>
>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>
>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>> another platform.
>>
>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>
> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
> expects that environment.

Especially since the ⍎ operator (small circle over inverted-T),
“Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
expression in the current context.
> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
> Then there's the whole j universe.

It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
sells it as Log-On APL2.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
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From: john.w.k...@gmail.com (John W Kennedy)
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 by: John W Kennedy - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:03 UTC

On 5/17/22 9:24 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>
>>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>>
>> Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>> the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>> code is dicey at best though.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
>>
>
> UTF-8 _is_ unicode. There are many possible encodings for unicode,
> UTF-8 is the most common outside of windows, which uses UTF-16 by
> default.

Cocoa has always used UTF-16 (though with translation to/from UTF-8 and
UTF-32 are available), but, a couple of years ago, Swift changed its
internal representation to UTF-8.

> And Clarke is correct, you cannot represent Chinese in 8 bits, even
> when using UTF-8 encoding.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.strips,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crêpe
Date: 17 May 2022 17:45:07 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:45 UTC

On 13 May 2022 at 23:26:33 BST, "John W Kennedy"
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> xkcd: Crêpe
>> https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>
>> I love crêpes ! My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews stood
>> at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris by the
>> Eiffel Tower back in 2009. We had a lot more fun than standing in that
>> hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>
>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>
>> Explained at:
>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>
>> Lynn
>
> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I can’t
> even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining inverted
> breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried both
> straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI app.)

On a Mac, just hold the "e" key down for about 2.5 seconds and you get a
popup with accent offerings. Applies to the other obvious candidate keys
also.

There's no sense in trying to work out characters that have been to
Usenet and back, though. Clients and servers alike are awful at anything
other than straight ascii, and will badly smash any other encoding
during transit unless a miracle happens.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
I hope I live long enough
to vindicate my pessimism
-- http://www.boasas.com/?c=1108

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.strips,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crêpe
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On 14 May 2022 at 22:07:05 BST, "John W Kennedy"
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>> https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>
>>>> I love crêpes ! My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris
>>>> by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009. We had a lot more fun than
>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>
>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>
>>>> Explained at:
>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining
>>> inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried
>>> both straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI
>>> app.)
>>
>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ? Or are you
>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>
>> Lynn
>
> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ) and
> a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a tiny A
> (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of Duke, the
> Java mascot) above it.
>
> On further research, I find that the three-part E+ ̑+ ̂ combination works
> on my Mac with in a trivial SwiftUI app if I use Arial as the font.

Ew. I rescind my previous article, which of course also isn't possible
on Usenet.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"But people have always eaten people!
What else is there to eat?
If the Juju had meant us not to eat people
He wouldn't have made us of meat!"
-- Flanders & Swann

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:51 UTC

On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ)
>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>
>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>
>>>      Cheers,
>>>          Gary    B-)
>>
>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>
> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>
> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
> time and date.
>
>     Cheers,
>         Gary    B-)

We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
Message-ID: <6h688hho3hphhshvpsr04qs6i2br8p6fqf@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 21:57 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>
>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>> another platform.
>>>
>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>
>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>> expects that environment.
>
>Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>“Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>expression in the current context.
>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>
>It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>sells it as Log-On APL2.

Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
preventing actual sales.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 21:59 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 20:50:05 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
>Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>code is dicey at best though.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8

UTF-8 isn't 8-bit. It's variable width with an 8-bit subset.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<aq8a8hp13bsbt6i8m1vifprv7v7q1643d5@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:48:21 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:48 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>
>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>
>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>
>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>> time and date.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>         Gary    B-)
>
>We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.

Stupid question time:

you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
Unicode, right?

not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode

I /said/ it was a stupid question.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:17 UTC

On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>
>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>
>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>
>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>
>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>> time and date.
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>         Gary    B-)
>>
>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>
> Stupid question time:
>
> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
> Unicode, right?
>
> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>
> I /said/ it was a stupid question.

No questions are stupid.

We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png

Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.

I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
suck.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 01:01 UTC

On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>> another platform.
>>>>
>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>
>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>> expects that environment.
>>
>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>> expression in the current context.
>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>
>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>
> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
> preventing actual sales.

I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
website says nothing of a problem

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<t64gap$gqh$2@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
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Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 04:16 UTC

On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the
>>>>>>> Peanut
>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>
>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>> expects that environment.
>>>
>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>> expression in the current context.
>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>
>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>
>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>> preventing actual sales.
>
> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
> website says nothing of a problem
>
Which website? If its the company's website why would you expect it
tell people about a problem?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<tcpc8h9vbc6evlj87ff6eip6pn5g19ucel@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
Message-ID: <tcpc8h9vbc6evlj87ff6eip6pn5g19ucel@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:43 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>
>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>> expects that environment.
>>>
>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>> expression in the current context.
>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>
>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>
>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>> preventing actual sales.
>
>I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>website says nothing of a problem

APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<66sc8hlclbefaii2ncje0kk7liufsg0nis@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=7292&group=rec.arts.comics.strips#7292

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:36:10 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:36 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>
>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>
>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>> time and date.
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>
>> Stupid question time:
>>
>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>> Unicode, right?
>>
>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>
>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>
>No questions are stupid.
>
>We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>
>Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.

Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.

>I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>suck.

IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
standard.

Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.

I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
Although surely lower case is allowed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t6613q$k43$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=7294&group=rec.arts.comics.strips#7294

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 13:08:57 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:08 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

We have to move to 64 bit (x64 / Win64). Watcom does not have 64 bit
compilers and linkers.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t6616l$k43$3@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=7295&group=rec.arts.comics.strips#7295

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 13:10:27 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:10 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

C / C++ has wide characters, 16 bit.

Fortran has allowed lower case since Fortran 77. Maybe even some of the
Fortran 66 compilers.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:01 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:

> Fortran has allowed lower case since Fortran 77.

Not in code (although it was probably the most widely implemented
extension). Lower case came in Fortran 90.

Character strings - these were introduced with FORTRAN 77, before it
was only non-standard Hollerith, which varied widely. You could put
lower-case characters in character strings, it was theoretically
non-portable, but by the time that F77 was implemented, I guess
that was a moot point.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<qISdnb2LdZ7FIBv_nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:57 UTC

On 5/19/22 12:16 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and
>>>>>>>> the like
>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the
>>>>>>>> Peanut
>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>
>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>
>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>
>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>> preventing actual sales.
>>
>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>> website says nothing of a problem
>>
> Which website?  If its the company's website why would you expect it
> tell people about a problem?
>
You can’t ignore a fundamental problem in a signature product and hope
to stay in business, especially when the product has been around for
decades.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: john.w.k...@gmail.com (John W Kennedy)
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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:59 UTC

On 5/19/22 11:43 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>
>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>
>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>
>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>> preventing actual sales.
>>
>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>> website says nothing of a problem
>
> APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.

Do you mean APL2 the language or the software product “APL2” sold until
last year by IBM?

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<srednZe5-Pr7XBv_nZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:14 UTC

On 5/19/22 12:36 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

C99 added the use of Unicode escape sequences, and most compilers today
support direct use of Unicode.

Fortran is still hanging back, but gfortran can handle UCS-2.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<t66gaa$kci$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:28:49 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:28 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:57 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 5/19/22 12:16 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and
>>>>>>>>> the like
>>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from
>>>>>>>>> the Peanut
>>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are
>>>>>> aberrations.
>>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's
>>>>>> currently
>>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>>
>>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>>> preventing actual sales.
>>>
>>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>>> website says nothing of a problem
>>>
>> Which website?  If its the company's website why would you expect it
>> tell people about a problem?
>>
> You can’t ignore a fundamental problem in a signature product and hope
> to stay in business, especially when the product has been around for
> decades.
>
Microsoft. :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: xkcd: Cre^pe

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Cre^pe
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 by: Joy Beeson - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:05 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a computer programmer, I find
> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.

No "universal code" that adamantly refuses to distinguish between
umlaut and diaresis is worth thinking about. The glyphs of the two
diacritics don't even resemble each other as much as "1" and "l" do.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<iv7f8htbnllqnt0uhs0a54krb3ljs0ql2f@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:05 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:59:43 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/22 11:43 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>>
>>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>>> preventing actual sales.
>>>
>>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>>> website says nothing of a problem
>>
>> APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.
>
>Do you mean APL2 the language or the software product “APL2” sold until
>last year by IBM?

Both.

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