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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

SubjectAuthor
* [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAhasuerus
|+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
||`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDavid Johnston
|`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonMichael F. Stemper
+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDon
|+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
|||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
||| `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDon
|| `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
||  +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDorothy J Heydt
||  |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
||  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDon
||   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
||   |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonpete...@gmail.com
||   `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonMichael F. Stemper
| `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
|  `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonMichael F. Stemper
`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDavid Johnston
 `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAndrew McDowell
  +- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAhasuerus
  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
   |+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAndrew McDowell
   |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAndrew McDowell
   |+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonTitus G
   | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |   `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAndrew McDowell
   |    `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonTitus G
   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonChristian Weisgerber
   ||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
   |||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonScott Lurndal
   ||| `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||  `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonScott Lurndal
   ||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAlan
   |||+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonTitus G
   |||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   ||| +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonScott Lurndal
   ||| |+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonKevrob
   ||| |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   ||| `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |||  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||   |+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |||   ||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonpete...@gmail.com
   |||   |||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
   |||   ||||`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Woodward
   |||   |||+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||   ||||`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonThe Horny Goat
   |||   |||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||   ||| `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonScott Lurndal
   |||   |||  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||   |||   +- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
   |||   |||   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||   |||   |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
   |||   |||   `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |||   ||`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||   |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonDavid Duffy
   |||   +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonChris Buckley
   |||   |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||   | `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
   |||   `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonWilliam Hyde
   |||    `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||     +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJames Nicoll
   |||     |`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||     `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||      |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      | +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
   |||      | |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      | | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonRobert Carnegie
   |||      | |  `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      | +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonTitus G
   |||      | |+- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonGary R. Schmidt
   |||      | |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||      | | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJaimie Vandenbergh
   |||      | |  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      | |   `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   |||      | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   |||      |  `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   |||      `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   ||`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonQuadibloc
   || `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonpete...@gmail.com
   ||  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJack Bohn
   ||   `- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Andersonpete...@gmail.com
   |+* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   ||`- Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonScott Lurndal
   |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   | +* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonAlan
   | |`* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   | | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   | |  `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonPaul S Person
   | |   `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke
   | `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonWolffan
   `* Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul AndersonJ. Clarke

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[Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<t4lvll$62m$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 12:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Sun, 1 May 2022 12:49 UTC

The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: ahasue...@email.com (Ahasuerus)
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 by: Ahasuerus - Sun, 1 May 2022 13:37 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:50:01 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip

"As for the other human: Eric Wace is just another Campbell-era
hero-engineer. However, he’s not the protagonist. Not ​“the man
who counts.” That’s the unattractive, ruthless, unethical boss
Nicolas van Rijn. Van Rijn is the sort of villain who will cheerfully
frame Rodonis’ husband to buy time for an escape. In most SF
novels of this era, Wace would have been the hero, with van Rijn
either relegated to comic relief or minor impediment who has to
be sacrificed for the good of the many. Readers may have been
astounded by Anderson’s rejection of this era’s conventions.."

It's certainly true that there was no shortage of bright engineers
triumphing over shortsighted managers in the 1940s/1950s SF.
However, things were different outside of SF. There was a great
deal of talk about "advanced management techniques",
"management science", etc after WWII. Some Europeans were
even worried that Americans would buy everything up because
they had management down to a science. Old-fashioned
methods just couldn't compete with it!

Of course, van Rijn's methods were not exactly "advanced science",
so Anderson was making a somewhat different point, but it was
still an interesting contribution to the debate.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<t25t6h1ko68igdetufe2fi654hmgsk2hma@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
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 by: J. Clarke - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:12 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 06:37:53 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
<ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:50:01 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>
>"As for the other human: Eric Wace is just another Campbell-era
>hero-engineer. However, he’s not the protagonist. Not ?“the man
>who counts.” That’s the unattractive, ruthless, unethical boss
>Nicolas van Rijn. Van Rijn is the sort of villain who will cheerfully
>frame Rodonis’ husband to buy time for an escape. In most SF
>novels of this era, Wace would have been the hero, with van Rijn
>either relegated to comic relief or minor impediment who has to
>be sacrificed for the good of the many. Readers may have been
>astounded by Anderson’s rejection of this era’s conventions."
>
>It's certainly true that there was no shortage of bright engineers
>triumphing over shortsighted managers in the 1940s/1950s SF.
>However, things were different outside of SF. There was a great
>deal of talk about "advanced management techniques",
>"management science", etc after WWII. Some Europeans were
>even worried that Americans would buy everything up because
>they had management down to a science. Old-fashioned
>methods just couldn't compete with it!

The sad part is that they were somewhat right. But American
manufacturers tend to ignore such things or just look for the parts
that can be used to oppress workers. The Japanese on the other hand,
embraced the whole package, tested it thoroughly, rejected the parts
that didn't work, improved the ones that did, and made it all their
own. If they were not so starved for resources this could have been
their century instead of China's.
>
>Of course, van Rijn's methods were not exactly "advanced science",
>so Anderson was making a somewhat different point, but it was
>still an interesting contribution to the debate.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<20220501a@crcomp.net>

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From: g...@crcomp.net (Don)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:36:24 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Don - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:36 UTC

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip

Excerpt:

"Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
love-interest reward for ​'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."

OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
brain unit.

... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
[said Pris Stratton]

"You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]

"Stories written before space travel but about space travel."

"How could there have been stories about space travel before --"

"The writers," Pris said, "made it up."

"Based on what?"

"On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
melons?"

_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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 by: Michael F. Stemper - Sun, 1 May 2022 17:19 UTC

On 01/05/2022 08.37, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:50:01 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>
> "As for the other human: Eric Wace is just another Campbell-era
> hero-engineer. However, he’s not the protagonist. Not ​“the man
> who counts.” That’s the unattractive, ruthless, unethical boss
> Nicolas van Rijn. Van Rijn is the sort of villain who will cheerfully
> frame Rodonis’ husband to buy time for an escape. In most SF
> novels of this era, Wace would have been the hero, with van Rijn
> either relegated to comic relief or minor impediment who has to
> be sacrificed for the good of the many. Readers may have been
> astounded by Anderson’s rejection of this era’s conventions."

Lady Sandra's choice was surprising. It's interesting that the result
of that choice was named after the man who didn't count.

It also had consequences a generation later, as portrayed in (if I
recall correctly) _Mirkheim_.

> Of course, van Rijn's methods were not exactly "advanced science",
> so Anderson was making a somewhat different point, but it was
> still an interesting contribution to the debate.

van Rijn followed the three "B"s: bully, bluff, and bluster. Lady
Sandra's lengthy monologue revealed their importance in getting
folks back to Christmas Landing.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Sun, 1 May 2022 18:14 UTC

On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 16:36:27 UTC+1, Don wrote:
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> Excerpt:
>
> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
> love-interest reward for ​'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
>
> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
> brain unit.
>
> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
> [said Pris Stratton]
>
> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
>
> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
>
> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
>
> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
>
> "Based on what?"
>
> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
> melons?"
>
> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)

It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
contain the word "breastplates".

Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: michael....@gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 13:59:58 -0500
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 by: Michael F. Stemper - Sun, 1 May 2022 18:59 UTC

On 01/05/2022 10.36, Don wrote:
> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>
> Excerpt:
>
> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time.

I'm drawing a blank here, which is about the limit of my artistic
abilities. To which novel is James referring?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 19:10:07 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Public Access Networks Corp.
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 by: James Nicoll - Sun, 1 May 2022 19:10 UTC

In article <t4mlbm$k1r$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 01/05/2022 10.36, Don wrote:
>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>
>> Excerpt:
>>
>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time.
>
>I'm drawing a blank here, which is about the limit of my artistic
>abilities. To which novel is James referring?
>
World Without Stars: the woman to whom one character moves heaven and Earth
to return to died long before the book began.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: michael....@gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 07:50:40 -0500
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 by: Michael F. Stemper - Mon, 2 May 2022 12:50 UTC

On 01/05/2022 14.10, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t4mlbm$k1r$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 01/05/2022 10.36, Don wrote:
>>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>
>>> Excerpt:
>>>
>>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time.
>>
>> I'm drawing a blank here, which is about the limit of my artistic
>> abilities. To which novel is James referring?
>>
> World Without Stars: the woman to whom one character moves heaven and Earth
> to return to died long before the book began.

It's nice to know that after all these years, there's still Anderson
waiting for me to read it!

--
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Message-ID: <sdc07hpp1m7b174huhcfsl7o945hb1oela@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:33 UTC

On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 16:36:27 UTC+1, Don wrote:
>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >
>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> Excerpt:
>>
>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
>> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
>> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
>> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
>> love-interest reward for ?'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
>>
>> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
>> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
>> brain unit.
>>
>> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
>> [said Pris Stratton]
>>
>> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
>>
>> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
>>
>> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
>>
>> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
>>
>> "Based on what?"
>>
>> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>> melons?"
>>
>> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>
>It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
>contain the word "breastplates".
>
>Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
>often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)

The red martians didn't dress at all except enough straps and harness
to carry their weapons, loot, and a bit of bling.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: ...@ednolan (ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Mon, 2 May 2022 21:23 UTC

In article <sdc07hpp1m7b174huhcfsl7o945hb1oela@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 16:36:27 UTC+1, Don wrote:
>>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>> >
>>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>> Excerpt:
>>>
>>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
>>> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
>>> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
>>> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
>>> love-interest reward for ?'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
>>>
>>> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
>>> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
>>> brain unit.
>>>
>>> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
>>> [said Pris Stratton]
>>>
>>> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
>>>
>>> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
>>>
>>> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
>>>
>>> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
>>>
>>> "Based on what?"
>>>
>>> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>>> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>>> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>>> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>>> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>>> melons?"
>>>
>>> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>>
>>It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
>>contain the word "breastplates".
>>
>>Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
>>often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
>
>The red martians didn't dress at all except enough straps and harness
>to carry their weapons, loot, and a bit of bling.

Which you can pretty much see in the Dynamite Comics run up until ERB Inc.
said, "Hey! You can't draw our trademarks as they are described!"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Message-ID: <69717htvk5oabs2l35o49821oejhsbvi1s@4ax.com>
References: <t4lvll$62m$1@reader1.panix.com> <20220501a@crcomp.net> <be77c8cd-b7fe-4c4c-9523-ed327fe57a05n@googlegroups.com> <sdc07hpp1m7b174huhcfsl7o945hb1oela@4ax.com> <jdb0e6Fjh8U1@mid.individual.net>
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 3 May 2022 03:11 UTC

On 2 May 2022 21:23:18 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:

>In article <sdc07hpp1m7b174huhcfsl7o945hb1oela@4ax.com>,
>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 16:36:27 UTC+1, Don wrote:
>>>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>> >
>>>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>
>>>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>>>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>>>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>>>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
>>>> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
>>>> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
>>>> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
>>>> love-interest reward for ?'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
>>>> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
>>>> brain unit.
>>>>
>>>> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
>>>> [said Pris Stratton]
>>>>
>>>> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
>>>>
>>>> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
>>>>
>>>> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
>>>>
>>>> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
>>>>
>>>> "Based on what?"
>>>>
>>>> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>>>> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>>>> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>>>> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>>>> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>>>> melons?"
>>>>
>>>> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>>>
>>>It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
>>>contain the word "breastplates".
>>>
>>>Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
>>>often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
>>
>>The red martians didn't dress at all except enough straps and harness
>>to carry their weapons, loot, and a bit of bling.
>
>Which you can pretty much see in the Dynamite Comics run up until ERB Inc.
>said, "Hey! You can't draw our trademarks as they are described!"

And thinking about it, Burroughs must not have had much experience
with leather on bare skin. Which is surprising considering that for a
while he was a horse cavalryman.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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From: g...@crcomp.net (Don)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 02:56:38 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Don - Wed, 4 May 2022 02:56 UTC

Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Don wrote:
>> James Nicoll wrote:
>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >
>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>
>> Excerpt:
>>
>> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
>> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
>> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
>> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
>> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
>> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
>> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
>> love-interest reward for ​'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
>>
>> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
>> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
>> brain unit.
>>
>> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
>> [said Pris Stratton]
>>
>> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
>>
>> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
>>
>> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
>>
>> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
>>
>> "Based on what?"
>>
>> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>> melons?"
>>
>> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>
> It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
> contain the word "breastplates".
>
> Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
> often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)

The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:

http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg

It turns out Isidore's interest in buxom, breastplated, braided blondes
is nonexistent, at first. _Electric Sheep_'s Martian narrative reminds
me of _Martian Chronicles_ (Bradbury). PKD also magically weaves SF
mythos into his story.

... "Well --" She moved away from him, paced
slowly, with measured steps, about the room. "-- see, we lived on Mars.
That's how come I know androids." Her voice shook but she managed to
continue; obviously it meant a great deal to her to have someone to
talk to.

"And the only people on Earth that you know," Isidore said, "are your
fellow ex-emigrants."

"We knew each other before the trip. A settlement near New New York.
Roy Baty and Irmgard ran a drugstore; he was a pharmacist and she
handled the beauty aids, the creams and ointments; on Mars they use a
lot of skin conditioners. I --" She hesitated. "I got various drugs
from Roy -- I needed them at first because -- well, anyhow, it's an
awful place. This" -- she swept in the room, the apartment, in one
violent gesture -- "this is nothing. You think I'm suffering because
I'm lonely. Hell, all Mars is lonely. Much worse than this."

"Don't the androids keep you company? I heard a commercial on --"
Seating himself he ate, and presently she too picked up the glass of
wine; she sipped expressionlessly. "I understood that the androids
helped."

"The androids," she said, "are lonely, too."

"Do you like the wine?"

She set down her glass. "It's fine."

"It's the only bottle I've seen in three years."

"We came back," Pris said, "because nobody should have to live there.
It wasn't conceived for habitation, at least not within the last
billion years. It's so old. You feel it in the stones, the terrible old
age. Anyhow, at first I got drugs from Roy; I lived for that new
synthetic pain-killer, that silenizine. And then I met Horst Hartman,
who at that time ran a stamp store, rare postage stamps; there's so
much time on your hands that you've got to have a hobby, something you
can pore over endlessly. And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial
fiction."

"You mean old books?"

"Stories written before space travel but about space travel."

"How could there have been stories about space travel before --"

"The writers," Pris said, "made it up."

"Based on what?"

"On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For example they
wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with huge monsters and women
in breastplates that glistened." She eyed him. "Does that interest you?
Big women with long braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the
size of melons?"

"No," he said.

"Irmgard is blond," Pris said. "But small. Anyhow, there's a fortune to
be made in smuggling pre-colonial fiction, the old magazines and books
and films, to Mars. Nothing is as exciting. To read about cities and
huge industrial enterprises, and really successful colonization. You
can imagine what it might have been like. What Mars ought to be like.
Canals."

"Canals?" Dimly, he remembered reading about that; in the olden days
they had believed in canals on Mars.

"Crisscrossing the planet," Pris said. "And beings from other stars.
With infinite wisdom. And stories about Earth, set in our time and even
later. Where there's no radioactive dust."

"I would think," Isidore said, "it would make you feel worse."

"It doesn't," Pris said curtly.

"Did you bring any of that pre-colonial reading material back with
you?" It occurred to him that he ought to try some.

"It's worthless, here, because here on Earth the craze never caught on.
Anyhow there's plenty here, in the libraries; that's where we get all
of ours- -- stolen from libraries here on Earth and shot by autorocket
to Mars. You're out at night bumbling across the open space, and all
of a sudden you see a flare, and there's a rocket, cracked open, with
old pre-colonial fiction magazines spilling out everywhere. A fortune.
But of course you read them before you sell them." She warmed to her
topic. "Of all --"

Radioactive dust seems a distinct non-fictional possibility these days.
"You never know what you've got till it's gone."

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:50 UTC

On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 03:56:42 UTC+1, Don wrote:
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Don wrote:
> >> James Nicoll wrote:
> >> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >> >
> >> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> >>
> >> Excerpt:
> >>
> >> "Lady Sandra isn't as bad (she's without agency or talent, a
> >> stereotyped female) as the female characters in many early Poul
> >> Anderson novels. But bear in mind that the character in one such
> >> novel turned out to have been dead the whole time. We're told
> >> that Lady Sandra is the last hope of an otherwise inbred Hermes
> >> royal family. That isn't something relevant to the plot, in which
> >> she is largely a dead-weight passenger and exists only to be the
> >> love-interest reward for ​'the man who counts' (van Rijn)."
> >>
> >> OTOH, Pris Stratton's a little different. She's the platonic love-
> >> interest of a man who doesn't count. Pris is an android with a Nexus-6
> >> brain unit.
> >>
> >> ... And Horst got me interested in pre-colonial fiction."
> >> [said Pris Stratton]
> >>
> >> "You mean old books?" [said John Isidore]
> >>
> >> "Stories written before space travel but about space travel."
> >>
> >> "How could there have been stories about space travel before --"
> >>
> >> "The writers," Pris said, "made it up."
> >>
> >> "Based on what?"
> >>
> >> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
> >> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
> >> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
> >> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
> >> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
> >> melons?"
> >>
> >> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
> >
> > It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
> > contain the word "breastplates".
> >
> > Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
> > often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
> The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:
>
> http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg

Hmm. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon>

"Ted Dustin, an American inventor, seeks to win a prize of
one million dollars by being the first person to touch the Moon
with an object launched from Earth. He devises a huge gun,
which fires upon the surface of the Moon. Shortly thereafter,
the Moon fires back, and war breaks out between the planet
and its satellite."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Adelbert_Kline>
implies that "warlike yellow aliens" were in line with
Kline's terrestrial topics, inasmuch as he got the cover
on _Oriental Stories_ with "The Dragoman's Slave Girl",
which is about where we started. Doubtfully alleged
rivalry between Kline and Edgar Rice Burroughs
("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim) may consist,
I think, of the sincerest form of flattery.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<rBD2KH.A15@kithrup.com>

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Wed, 4 May 2022 13:53 UTC

In article <c086f917-8686-489e-b9fd-d931bc85474en@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie wrote:

>("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim)

Oh, that takes me back. In the late nineties I wrote a series
pf stories set in the third centuries BCE. In one of them, my
protagonist trained for initiation into the Elusinian mysteries.

Now, the mysteries of Eleusis were carefully guarded secrets.
But in the twentieth century a scholar named George Mylonas spent
thirty years researching them, and came to the conclusion that
the initiates took the mysteries to the grave with them, and all
he could discover were the outward limbs and flourishes.

So I wrote the story anyway, and it got published in _Sword and
Sorceress_ number something or other. And some years later, I
met a young Neo-Pagan at a party, and she wanted to know where
I'd found all my data. "Well," I said, "there's this book by
George Mylonas, and he spent thirty years--"

"Oh, I've read Mylonas," she said. "Where did you get the other
stuff? The sacred things that were carried in one of nine
baskets, and the song and dance telling the story of
Persephone--?"

"I made it up," I said. She was terribly disappointed.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<v3857htfshggq0l9s72fq31pbhjhl8eba0@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:51 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 13:53:05 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <c086f917-8686-489e-b9fd-d931bc85474en@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>>("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim)
>
>Oh, that takes me back. In the late nineties I wrote a series
>pf stories set in the third centuries BCE. In one of them, my
>protagonist trained for initiation into the Elusinian mysteries.
>
>Now, the mysteries of Eleusis were carefully guarded secrets.
>But in the twentieth century a scholar named George Mylonas spent
>thirty years researching them, and came to the conclusion that
>the initiates took the mysteries to the grave with them, and all
>he could discover were the outward limbs and flourishes.

Somewhere, Robert Graves (probably in speculative mode), states that
he agrees with another mythographer that the Great Mystery was ... a
sprouting head of corn.

IOW, the Great Secret was, at least for plants, that -- life comes
from life.

That's the European corn, of course -- not maize, but one of the
grains, probably wheat, but perhaps barley, oats, spelt, or whatever.

>So I wrote the story anyway, and it got published in _Sword and
>Sorceress_ number something or other. And some years later, I
>met a young Neo-Pagan at a party, and she wanted to know where
>I'd found all my data. "Well," I said, "there's this book by
>George Mylonas, and he spent thirty years--"
>
>"Oh, I've read Mylonas," she said. "Where did you get the other
>stuff? The sacred things that were carried in one of nine
>baskets, and the song and dance telling the story of
>Persephone--?"
>
>"I made it up," I said. She was terribly disappointed.
>
>--
>Dorothy J. Heydt
>Vallejo, California
>djheydt at gmail dot com
>Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<20220504a@crcomp.net>

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From: g...@crcomp.net (Don)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 15:51:39 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Don - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:51 UTC

Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Don wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > Don wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Based on what?"
>> >>
>> >> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>> >> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>> >> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>> >> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>> >> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>> >> melons?"
>> >>
>> >> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>> >
>> > It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
>> > contain the word "breastplates".
>> >
>> > Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
>> > often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
>>
>> The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:
>>
>> http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg
>
> Hmm. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon>
>
> "Ted Dustin, an American inventor, seeks to win a prize of
> one million dollars by being the first person to touch the Moon
> with an object launched from Earth. He devises a huge gun,
> which fires upon the surface of the Moon. Shortly thereafter,
> the Moon fires back, and war breaks out between the planet
> and its satellite."
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Adelbert_Kline>
> implies that "warlike yellow aliens" were in line with
> Kline's terrestrial topics, inasmuch as he got the cover
> on _Oriental Stories_ with "The Dragoman's Slave Girl",
> which is about where we started. Doubtfully alleged
> rivalry between Kline and Edgar Rice Burroughs
> ("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim) may consist,
> I think, of the sincerest form of flattery.

It's hard enough to find a bigley, buxom, breastplated, braided blonde
on an old pulp cover to begin with. And now all of my hard work is met
with an implication, an innuendo, about how an unseen "warlike yellow
alien" association stains the cover.
Does our big, blonde cover-girl qualify as a "warlike yellow alien?"
Before you answer, take one more peek at the _Maza_ cover:

<http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg>

See how she towers over the men? It's sort of alien, no?

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<jdflvlFro19U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ...@ednolan (ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan)
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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: 4 May 2022 15:55:33 GMT
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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:55 UTC

In article <20220504a@crcomp.net>, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> Don wrote:
>>> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> > Don wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> "Based on what?"
>>> >>
>>> >> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
>>> >> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
>>> >> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
>>> >> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
>>> >> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
>>> >> melons?"
>>> >>
>>> >> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
>>> >
>>> > It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
>>> > contain the word "breastplates".
>>> >
>>> > Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
>>> > often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
>>>
>>> The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:
>>>
>>> http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg
>>
>> Hmm. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon>
>>
>> "Ted Dustin, an American inventor, seeks to win a prize of
>> one million dollars by being the first person to touch the Moon
>> with an object launched from Earth. He devises a huge gun,
>> which fires upon the surface of the Moon. Shortly thereafter,
>> the Moon fires back, and war breaks out between the planet
>> and its satellite."
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Adelbert_Kline>
>> implies that "warlike yellow aliens" were in line with
>> Kline's terrestrial topics, inasmuch as he got the cover
>> on _Oriental Stories_ with "The Dragoman's Slave Girl",
>> which is about where we started. Doubtfully alleged
>> rivalry between Kline and Edgar Rice Burroughs
>> ("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim) may consist,
>> I think, of the sincerest form of flattery.
>
>It's hard enough to find a bigley, buxom, breastplated, braided blonde
>on an old pulp cover to begin with. And now all of my hard work is met

Probably easier if you stick with Planet Stories, although the blonde
is optional.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=planet+stories+covers&qs=n&form=QBILPG&sp=-1&pq=planet+stories+covers&sc=2-21&cvid=D314B91F15724A0AB03CA2E8B2A1DE55&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle

https://tinyurl.com/ua7m3u6b
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 18:45 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:55:39 AM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <2022...@crcomp.net>, Don <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
> >Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> Don wrote:
> >>> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >>> > Don wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "Based on what?"
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
> >>> >> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
> >>> >> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
> >>> >> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
> >>> >> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
> >>> >> melons?"
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
> >>> >
> >>> > It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
> >>> > contain the word "breastplates".
> >>> >
> >>> > Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
> >>> > often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
> >>>
> >>> The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg
> >>
> >> Hmm. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon>
> >>
> >> "Ted Dustin, an American inventor, seeks to win a prize of
> >> one million dollars by being the first person to touch the Moon
> >> with an object launched from Earth. He devises a huge gun,
> >> which fires upon the surface of the Moon. Shortly thereafter,
> >> the Moon fires back, and war breaks out between the planet
> >> and its satellite."
> >>
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Adelbert_Kline>
> >> implies that "warlike yellow aliens" were in line with
> >> Kline's terrestrial topics, inasmuch as he got the cover
> >> on _Oriental Stories_ with "The Dragoman's Slave Girl",
> >> which is about where we started. Doubtfully alleged
> >> rivalry between Kline and Edgar Rice Burroughs
> >> ("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim) may consist,
> >> I think, of the sincerest form of flattery.
> >
> >It's hard enough to find a bigley, buxom, breastplated, braided blonde
> >on an old pulp cover to begin with. And now all of my hard work is met
> Probably easier if you stick with Planet Stories, although the blonde
> is optional.
>
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=planet+stories+covers&qs=n&form=QBILPG&sp=-1&pq=planet+stories+covers&sc=2-21&cvid=D314B91F15724A0AB03CA2E8B2A1DE55&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ua7m3u6b

That's a lot of Damsels in Distress!

Turnabout is fair play (warning - pinup level NSFW)
https://comixjoint.com/commiesfrommars4.html

pt

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Wed, 4 May 2022 18:46 UTC

On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 16:51:43 UTC+1, Don wrote:
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Don wrote:
> >> Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> > Don wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Based on what?"
> >> >>
> >> >> "On imagination. A lot of times they turned out wrong. For
> >> >> example they wrote about Venus being a jungle paradise with
> >> >> huge monsters and women in breastplates that glistened." She
> >> >> eyed him. "Does that interest you? Big women with long
> >> >> braided blond hair and gleaming breastplates the size of
> >> >> melons?"
> >> >>
> >> >> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ (PKD)
> >> >
> >> > It occurs to me that the manuscript may not
> >> > contain the word "breastplates".
> >> >
> >> > Did not Edgar Rice Burroughs' women, for instance,
> >> > often dress au contraire? (In books, I mean.)
> >>
> >> The Dec 21 1929 _Argosy_ cover captures the concept:
> >>
> >> http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg
> >
> > Hmm. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon>
> >
> > "Ted Dustin, an American inventor, seeks to win a prize of
> > one million dollars by being the first person to touch the Moon
> > with an object launched from Earth. He devises a huge gun,
> > which fires upon the surface of the Moon. Shortly thereafter,
> > the Moon fires back, and war breaks out between the planet
> > and its satellite."
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Adelbert_Kline>
> > implies that "warlike yellow aliens" were in line with
> > Kline's terrestrial topics, inasmuch as he got the cover
> > on _Oriental Stories_ with "The Dragoman's Slave Girl",
> > which is about where we started. Doubtfully alleged
> > rivalry between Kline and Edgar Rice Burroughs
> > ("I made it up!" - Donald A. Wollheim) may consist,
> > I think, of the sincerest form of flattery.
> It's hard enough to find a bigley, buxom, breastplated, braided blonde
> on an old pulp cover to begin with. And now all of my hard work is met
> with an implication, an innuendo, about how an unseen "warlike yellow
> alien" association stains the cover.
> Does our big, blonde cover-girl qualify as a "warlike yellow alien?"
> Before you answer, take one more peek at the _Maza_ cover:
>
> <http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_19291221.jpg>
>
> See how she towers over the men? It's sort of alien, no?

Thank you. I should have been clearer: I think the yellow lads are
on the left. I suppose they're at war with Maza, whose "transmission
is cut off" by them when Ted makes a videophone call, and as you
see, they're wearing pagodas.

This appears here too
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maza_of_the_Moon#/media/File:MZFTHMNTPL1930.jpg>
so I assume it's in the text. Or it's an illustration from _Argosy_.

Apparently "Project Gutenberg Australia" and something
called "Faded Page" have this book online, and it's out of
copyright where I am if the author passed away in 1946.
Up to now, I'm going by Wikipedia for the contents.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<t6b96l$1guo$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 11:57:40 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Sat, 21 May 2022 17:57 UTC

On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip

There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
mutual hostility.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

<t6b9ng$1po7$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 12:06:39 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Sat, 21 May 2022 18:06 UTC

On 2022-05-01 8:12 a.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2022 06:37:53 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
> <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:50:01 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>>
>> "As for the other human: Eric Wace is just another Campbell-era
>> hero-engineer. However, he’s not the protagonist. Not ?“the man who
>> counts.” That’s the unattractive, ruthless, unethical boss Nicolas
>> van Rijn. Van Rijn is the sort of villain who will cheerfully frame
>> Rodonis’ husband to buy time for an escape. In most SF novels of
>> this era, Wace would have been the hero, with van Rijn either
>> relegated to comic relief or minor impediment who has to be
>> sacrificed for the good of the many. Readers may have been
>> astounded by Anderson’s rejection of this era’s conventions."
>>
>> It's certainly true that there was no shortage of bright engineers
>> triumphing over shortsighted managers in the 1940s/1950s SF.
>> However, things were different outside of SF. There was a great
>> deal of talk about "advanced management techniques", "management
>> science", etc after WWII. Some Europeans were even worried that
>> Americans would buy everything up because they had management down
>> to a science. Old-fashioned methods just couldn't compete with it!
>
> The sad part is that they were somewhat right. But American
> manufacturers tend to ignore such things or just look for the parts
> that can be used to oppress workers. The Japanese on the other
> hand, embraced the whole package, tested it thoroughly, rejected the
> parts that didn't work, improved the ones that did, and made it all
> their own.

The current popularity there of portal fantasy novels in which a
Japanese person is killed and reborn in a fantasy world where they have
effortless domination of the world through godlike powers and all they
do is screw around and relax may be linked to Japan's alarming number of
black companies.

> While specifics may vary from workplace to workplace and company to
> company, a typical practice at a black company is to hire a large
> number of young employees and then force them to work large amounts
> of overtime without overtime pay. Conditions are poor, and workers
> are subjected to verbal abuse and "power harassment" (bullying) by
> their superiors.[1] In order to make the employees stay, superiors of
> black companies would often threaten young employees with disrepute
> if they chose to quit.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Sat, 21 May 2022 19:40 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
> mutual hostility.
I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
From: ahasue...@email.com (Ahasuerus)
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 by: Ahasuerus - Sat, 21 May 2022 23:25 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 3:40:15 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
[snip-snip]
> In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the
> Victorian English cannot be right.

Morality is a code of conduct, a set of principles which govern human
behavior. As the options available to humans change, these principles
change as well.

A great deal has changed over the last few centuries -- science,
technology, education, productivity, fertility rates, contraceptive
options, population density, etc -- which has led to numerous
changes in dominant codes of conduct.

To take it back to Poul Anderson, here is a quote from _Tau Zero_:

Lindgren sighed. “Boris, mores change. From my viewpoint, you
grew up in a period of unreasonable puritanism. But it was a
reaction to an earlier easiness that had perhaps gone too far; and
earlier yet — No matter.” She chose her words with care. “The fact
is, man has never stayed by a single ideal. The mass enthusiasm
when you were young gave way to cool, rationalistic classicism.
Today that’s being drowned in turn by a kind of neoromanticism.
God knows where that will lead. I probably won’t approve.

Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson

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Subject: Re: [Tears] The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
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 by: Paul S Person - Sun, 22 May 2022 15:44 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:57:45 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2022-05-01 6:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> > The Man Who Counts by Poul Anderson
>> >
>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-fateful-trip
>> There the thing I can't buy is that the aliens couldn't figure out what
>> difference in their lifestyle lead to their different sexual practices
>> and that finding it what was causing would make any difference to their
>> mutual hostility.
>I will believe any amount of self-deception and propaganda in these areas. In terms of sexual morality, both the modern west and the Victorian English cannot be right. In terms of not drawing the correct conclusion about health from everyday experience and acting on it - there is this thing called the obesity crisis and it's not a myth. I work in a sedentary industry. An overweight man I wanted to work for died from a heart attack before I got the chance. Overweight people I work with are receiving treatment or days off sick because their joints are falling apart under the strain of their bodies. Now when I get my eyes tested I see people in being checked over because of the effects of type II diabetes on their eyes.

A "crisis" is something that develops suddenly and then ends.

And I thought the official propaganda was that obesity was an
epidemic. Of course, now that we have been reminded what a /real/
epidemic looks like (a pandemic is a large-scale epidemic), has that
bit of hysterical hyperbole gone out of fashion?

Obesity is an endemic condition. In some cultures, it was regarded as
sign of prosperity (as only the wealthy could eat enough to achieve
it). Medically, it is The Cause of Everything Else -- as smoking was
for a while. For now. Eventually, a new Cause of Everything Else will
arise, and obesity will be reduced to an effect. Gut bacteria
composition is already being lined up as the True Underlying Cause of
obesity, and use of artificial sweeteners is being targeted as the
cause of "bad" gut bacteria.

As to your last sentence: if they are actually experiencing visual
effects requiring medical intervention, that is one thing; but, if
they are merely getting checked over to see if, by any chance, being
obese, they have medical eye problems, that is a different thing
altogether.

I once knew a man who was in the US Army and so thin -- how thin was
he? -- that when he stood sideways you couldn't see him. Well, not
really, but he was very thin. One week he went on leave to an Army
resort, got into a game of medicine ball, caught one in the chest --
and his heart exploded. But he wasn't obese, so the Army never checked
out his actual physical condition, because "thin" equalled "healthy".
Focusing on fat people has its costs.

OTOH, in my last job, it is true that I found myself surrounded by
"sickies". To the point where my manager tried to shoehorn me into
them because it made things so much easier -- for her -- if I were
/officially/ a sickie who needed a day off every so often that if I
were not and she actually had to make a decision.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

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