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There is no comfort without pain; thus we define salvation through suffering. -- Cato


arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: Isaiah 9:6

SubjectAuthor
* Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Dorothy J Heydt
|`- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
|`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Charles Packer
|  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
|   |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Doctor
|   ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   || `- Re: Isaiah 9:6The Doctor
|   |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |       +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Michael F. Stemper
|   |       +* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       |+- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
|   |       |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
|   |       | +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |       | |+- Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
|   |       | |`- Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       | `- Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |        `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |         `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |          `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Charles Packer
`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
 `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Dorothy J Heydt
  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       +* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Jack Bohn
       |||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||| `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Jack Bohn
       ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||| +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||| +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||| |`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       ||||  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       ||| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||  +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Scott Lurndal
       |||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       |||   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||    `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
       || `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||  +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||   +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||       `- Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       || |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || ||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       || |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       || | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
       || |  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       || `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       ||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||   `- Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |   +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       |   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |     +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       |      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Kevrob
       |       `- Re: Isaiah 9:6William Hyde
       `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
        +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
        `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
         +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
         +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
         `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Kevrob

Pages:12345
Re: Isaiah 9:6

<fgt77h56ttclsp3vkk1ciprcji6ev2sru4@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 09:08:56 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 5 May 2022 16:08 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> > If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>> > please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>> > now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>> > dead on Tuesday?
>
>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>
>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>> about it.
>
>I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>
>But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>
>Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>_can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.

Enlarging the Court isn't the answer.

Two of the Justices appear to have testified, under oath, that they
would respect and not try to overturn Roe v Wade. If they do, they can
be impeached for moral turpitude.

Two more recent Justices appear to have lied to /Republicans/ about
respecting Roe v Wade. Since they were not under oath, this would be
harder, but they, also, could be impeached and convicted for moral
turpitude.

But I don't think it's gonna happen. Even it Roe v Wade falls.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<15f58ff1-c37c-417a-bcea-4b97c9264e81n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:17 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

> I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
> than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
> he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
> denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
>
> It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
> of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
> him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.

Of course, in your scheme, prior to the Civil War, it would have been
illegal to publicly advocate stripping slave owners of their legal property,
anywhere in the country.

Your attitude is fundamentally unAmerican and unconstitutional. But that's
ok, you're not an American, so its allowed.

If you like this kind of law, you must love the current Russian legislation
under which you can get 15 years in jail for calling the events in Ukraine
a 'war'.

pt

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:42 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:26:19 AM UTC-6, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> > I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
> > than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
> > he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
> > denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
> >
> > It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
> > of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
> > him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.

> As he was advocating the state of affairs before the Supreme Court decision,
> it would take a rather quickly-pivoting government body to ban any discussion
> of subjects against current laws. You have discovered a practical reason
> against censoring the content of speech, for those who don't understand
> the civil or moral reasons.

Oh, I believe in freedom of speech!

So segregationists could still make their case in print.

But the limited resource of the airwaves, with its pivotal
role in shaping mass consciousness, needs to be limited
to constructive content.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:45 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> That is called "censorship" and it is another thing that doesn't
> happen in a free society. Do-gooders like you only favor democracy
> when the majority agrees with you.

If the majority favors discrimination against a minority - like Muslims
in Egypt or Pakistan - since discrimination is a _crime against humanity_
it must be prevented by whatever means are necessary. Always, and
without exception.

Democracy is for those who are willing to respect the rights of others.
Those who violate the rights of others are criminals, not citizens.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:49 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> There are black people today who feel that integrating the schools did
> more to deny equal opportunity than separate schools with black
> teachers ever did, you know.

I'm aware that there are girls-only schools, with the intent of helping
girls become willing to develop their non-traditional skills.

School segregation usually meant black students, white teachers,
and a markedly inferior set of resources - textbooks, equipment,
library books, and so on.

And I realize that some of the later elaborations on school integration
were problematic, because they exposed white students to a *real*
risk of violence. But the advocates of segregation *in the South*
did not have to deal with any real problems; they were opposing it
entirely on the basis of their own evil racist delusions.

Now, if we ever had a situation of 'separate but equal' where the
"equal" part was actually *enforced*, then history would have travelled
down a different path, but that isn't the history of the world we live in.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<cef43ac9-d95c-45db-badc-b7ee067c802bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 18:00 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:09:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> Enlarging the Court isn't the answer.
>
> Two of the Justices appear to have testified, under oath, that they
> would respect and not try to overturn Roe v Wade. If they do, they can
> be impeached for moral turpitude.
>
> Two more recent Justices appear to have lied to /Republicans/ about
> respecting Roe v Wade. Since they were not under oath, this would be
> harder, but they, also, could be impeached and convicted for moral
> turpitude.
>
> But I don't think it's gonna happen. Even it Roe v Wade falls.

No, I don't think that's going to happen. After all, the Senate
couldn't even convict Trump.

And *if* it's not going to happen, enlarging the Court is the answer
that remains.

At the moment, it certainly _looks_ as though the Republicans will
win in 2024 - as well as in the midterms - and that this may mean
the end of American democracy. But if Biden were going to bar
the Republican Party from participation in elections and governing,
surely _that_ would also be the end of American democracy.

I'm afratid that I have not been able to come up with an acceptable
solution. If we had decades, rather than months, the cure would be to
ensure Americans recieved a high-quality education, with emphasis
on critical thinking skills. Increasing the intrinsic biological intellectual
capacity of the American people, were the technology available, would
also help.

If the American people are unfit to sustain democracy, of course,
another alternative would be to place the United States under the
colonial tutelage of a democratic nation. Canada, although definitely
imperfect itself, might manage. The United Kingdom, what with
Boris Johnson running it, appears to fall short. Other possible candidates
include Norway and the Netherlands.

But obviously _that_ is impractical as well.

And, meanwhile, liberty has another existential crisis on its hands: Ukraine.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 18:11 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:17:39 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>
> > I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
> > than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
> > he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
> > denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
> >
> > It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
> > of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
> > him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.
> Of course, in your scheme, prior to the Civil War, it would have been
> illegal to publicly advocate stripping slave owners of their legal property,
> anywhere in the country.
>
> Your attitude is fundamentally unAmerican and unconstitutional. But that's
> ok, you're not an American, so its allowed.
>
> If you like this kind of law, you must love the current Russian legislation
> under which you can get 15 years in jail for calling the events in Ukraine
> a 'war'.

I've already addressed this point.

But what really keeps perplexing me is this:

Surely we all agree that the Federal Republic of Germany is a democracy.

After the end of World War II, you don't see *any* open expressions of
anti-Semitism there. Certainly there are no statues of Nazi generals
anywhere!

Why isn't the South like Germany? Apparently, there was a failure to
completely denazify the South before Reconstruction ended. This
omission should be remedied.

There is _no_ contradiction between a society being democratic and
a society being one in which racist viewpoints are totally and absolutely
marginalized, with virtually no popular support, relegated to a tiny
lunatic fringe. One can point to many examples of democratic societies
in which this is the case.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<2ad80f6d-e041-4dd1-b711-9cfb557ca1f5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 5 May 2022 18:33 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:11:05 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:17:39 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
> > > than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
> > > he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
> > > denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
> > >
> > > It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
> > > of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
> > > him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.
> > Of course, in your scheme, prior to the Civil War, it would have been
> > illegal to publicly advocate stripping slave owners of their legal property,
> > anywhere in the country.
> >
> > Your attitude is fundamentally unAmerican and unconstitutional. But that's
> > ok, you're not an American, so its allowed.
> >
> > If you like this kind of law, you must love the current Russian legislation
> > under which you can get 15 years in jail for calling the events in Ukraine
> > a 'war'.
> I've already addressed this point.
>
> But what really keeps perplexing me is this:
>
> Surely we all agree that the Federal Republic of Germany is a democracy.
>
> After the end of World War II, you don't see *any* open expressions of
> anti-Semitism there. Certainly there are no statues of Nazi generals
> anywhere!
>
> Why isn't the South like Germany? Apparently, there was a failure to
> completely denazify the South before Reconstruction ended. This
> omission should be remedied.
>
> There is _no_ contradiction between a society being democratic and
> a society being one in which racist viewpoints are totally and absolutely
> marginalized, with virtually no popular support, relegated to a tiny
> lunatic fringe. One can point to many examples of democratic societies
> in which this is the case.

It is fitting that it was in Springfield (Illinois) that Abraham Lincoln gave
the speech that included these words:

"He finds the Republicans insisting that the Declaration of Independence
includes ALL men, black as well as white; and forth-with he boldly denies
that it includes negroes at all, and proceeds to argue gravely that all who
contend it does, do so only because they want to vote, and eat, and sleep,
and marry with negroes! He will have it that they cannot be consistent else.
Now I protest against that counterfeit logic which concludes that, because
I do not want a black woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a
wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone. In some
respects she certainly is not my equal; but in her natural right to eat the
bread she earns with her own hands without asking leave of any one else,
she is my equal, and the equal of all others."

Except for the Abolitionists, no one back in those days saw the truth, and
thus it's hardly surprising that Reconstruction was not prosecuted with the
goal of creating a society where people of all colors would look around them,
and see that a black person was as likely as a white person to be a doctor or
a lawyer, where there was no systematic correlation to be observed between
race and income and wealth.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 6 May 2022 00:55 UTC

On Wed, 04 May 2022 09:10:09 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 3 May 2022 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 10:25:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> Despite having clearly stated that God Himself chose each and every
>>> word (presumably in the original language), he repeatedly asserts that
>>> we are reading John's /own/ description of what he saw. Thus he falls
>>> between two stools: the words are God's -- but they aren't, they are
>>> John's.
>>
>>As the Bible is absolutely inerrant, in addition to being _inspired_ by
>>the Holy Spirit, one presumably has to throw in *proofread* by the
>>Holy Spirit as well. I'm not sure that should be a problem for an
>>omnipotent God.
>
>So far, Lindsey hasn't made the "inerrancy" claim.
>
>But perhaps he cannot conceive of any alternative being possible.

On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<0is87h9krj7e9jbq9bkiafj9hnvaumf286@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:03 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 10:12:35 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>>I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
>>than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
>>he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
>>denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
>
>There are black people today who feel that integrating the schools did
>more to deny equal opportunity than separate schools with black
>teachers ever did, you know.

The catch was that prior to Brown v Board of Education "separate but
equal" was proven to lead to gross mismatches in education spending
between the separate but "equal" schools and the justices recognized
that and disallowed the claim based on Plessy v. Ferguson. We're
talking discrepancies between 4:1 to 10:1 or more.

Who knows what the ruling would have been had it TRULY been equal -
the judges might well have said the system was working well and not to
touch it but quickly ruled it unconstitutional given "equal" was a
long way from "actually equal"

>>It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
>>of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
>>him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.

>That is called "censorship" and it is another thing that doesn't
>happen in a free society. Do-gooders like you only favor democracy
>when the majority agrees with you.

Voltaire said well before there wasn't even a United States that
freedom of speech WASN'T about those you agreed with but was
especially directed to those you DIDN'T agree with.

I hear the wokesters say grossly offensive things all the time but I
don't advocate putting them in the stocks and throwing rotten tomatoes
at them much as some of them would richly deserve it.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<rsu87hpk3ibjv98von1el77ssnu4fn2rak@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:39 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:45:00 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> That is called "censorship" and it is another thing that doesn't
>> happen in a free society. Do-gooders like you only favor democracy
>> when the majority agrees with you.
>
>If the majority favors discrimination against a minority - like Muslims
>in Egypt or Pakistan - since discrimination is a _crime against humanity_
>it must be prevented by whatever means are necessary. Always, and
>without exception.
>
>Democracy is for those who are willing to respect the rights of others.
>Those who violate the rights of others are criminals, not citizens.

So discriminating against Putin is a crime against humanity? After
all, he is a minority of 1.

You have decided, without due process of law, what constitutes a crime
and now you want, without due process of law, to impose your will on
the majority.

And it gripes you no end that the rough men with guns don't see it
your way.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<v2v87hl9jffeaocuddrr190aegm0ar80uj@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:45 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> There are black people today who feel that integrating the schools did
>> more to deny equal opportunity than separate schools with black
>> teachers ever did, you know.
>
>I'm aware that there are girls-only schools, with the intent of helping
>girls become willing to develop their non-traditional skills.
>
>School segregation usually meant black students, white teachers,
>and a markedly inferior set of resources - textbooks, equipment,
>library books, and so on.

You clearly have not talked to black people who grew up under
segregation if you think that the teachers in black schools were all,
or even mostly white.

As for the inferior resources, schools today put a lot of store in
"resources" and very little store in actually expecting students to
learn the material being taught.

>And I realize that some of the later elaborations on school integration
>were problematic, because they exposed white students to a *real*
>risk of violence.

Oh, and here it comes, the "all black people are violent" bullshit.
And you _think_ that you're so egalitarian.

Black students were in more danger of "real violence" than white
students. Black people lynching white people was rare. The other way
around, not so much. Forcing them into contact with white people just
meant more opportunity for some redneck to take offense.

>But the advocates of segregation *in the South*
>did not have to deal with any real problems; they were opposing it
>entirely on the basis of their own evil racist delusions.

So the advocates of segregation were opposing it?

And have you ever actually _been_ in the South?

>Now, if we ever had a situation of 'separate but equal' where the
>"equal" part was actually *enforced*, then history would have travelled
>down a different path, but that isn't the history of the world we live in.

Yeah, more legislation from the bench by elderly, ignorant, well
intended white people trying to "save" black people without ever
bothering to ask them what they thought about it.

Just like you.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<3gv87h532mo9mvatmqpr2ropsqi9n9n7gu@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:47 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 18:03:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 May 2022 10:12:35 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
>>>than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
>>>he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
>>>denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
>>
>>There are black people today who feel that integrating the schools did
>>more to deny equal opportunity than separate schools with black
>>teachers ever did, you know.
>
>The catch was that prior to Brown v Board of Education "separate but
>equal" was proven to lead to gross mismatches in education spending
>between the separate but "equal" schools and the justices recognized
>that and disallowed the claim based on Plessy v. Ferguson. We're
>talking discrepancies between 4:1 to 10:1 or more.
>
>Who knows what the ruling would have been had it TRULY been equal -
>the judges might well have said the system was working well and not to
>touch it but quickly ruled it unconstitutional given "equal" was a
>long way from "actually equal"
>
>>>It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
>>>of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
>>>him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.
>
>>That is called "censorship" and it is another thing that doesn't
>>happen in a free society. Do-gooders like you only favor democracy
>>when the majority agrees with you.
>
>Voltaire said well before there wasn't even a United States that
>freedom of speech WASN'T about those you agreed with but was
>especially directed to those you DIDN'T agree with.
>
>I hear the wokesters say grossly offensive things all the time but I
>don't advocate putting them in the stocks and throwing rotten tomatoes
>at them much as some of them would richly deserve it.

On the other hand I hear with great regularity such people demanding
an end to conservatism, that all conservatives be jailed or worse,
that conservative political parties be banned, and the like.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<2jv87hptf3oochtq1squku6q145894988c@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:52 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 11:11:03 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:17:39 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
>> > than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
>> > he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
>> > denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
>> >
>> > It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
>> > of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
>> > him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.
>> Of course, in your scheme, prior to the Civil War, it would have been
>> illegal to publicly advocate stripping slave owners of their legal property,
>> anywhere in the country.
>>
>> Your attitude is fundamentally unAmerican and unconstitutional. But that's
>> ok, you're not an American, so its allowed.
>>
>> If you like this kind of law, you must love the current Russian legislation
>> under which you can get 15 years in jail for calling the events in Ukraine
>> a 'war'.
>
>I've already addressed this point.
>
>But what really keeps perplexing me is this:
>
>Surely we all agree that the Federal Republic of Germany is a democracy.
>
>After the end of World War II, you don't see *any* open expressions of
>anti-Semitism there. Certainly there are no statues of Nazi generals
>anywhere!

The extent to which it is a democracy is debatable. It is Germany,
everything that is not specifically permitted is prohibited. That's
where do-gooders want to take America.

>Why isn't the South like Germany?

Because it isn't Germany.

>Apparently, there was a failure to
>completely denazify the South before Reconstruction ended. This
>omission should be remedied.

Funny how the people who actually fought and died in that war didn't
see any need to "denazify the South", it's people who don't actually
have a dog in the fight who want that. Like you.

>There is _no_ contradiction between a society being democratic and
>a society being one in which racist viewpoints are totally and absolutely
>marginalized, with virtually no popular support, relegated to a tiny
>lunatic fringe. One can point to many examples of democratic societies
>in which this is the case.

Goody. You may expect the nice young men in their clean white coats
to come and take you away any time now, for the purpose of
marginalizing your lunacy.

Trouble with idiots like you is that you can't _imagine_ the policies
you advocate being directed at _you_.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<nrv87h1qe5gv034t6b139eva35pa0r10vt@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:57 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:06:31 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 May 2022 01:24:15 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>
>>>> > If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>>> > please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>>> > now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>>> > dead on Tuesday?
>>>
>>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>>
>>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>>> about it.
>>>
>>>I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>>
>>>But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>>
>>>Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>>>_can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>>
>>And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
>>gets reversed again.
>>
>>The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
>>requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
>>impatient to build.
>
>They don't have the votes now, and aren't likely to have them after
>next November, no matter what happens.
>
>For one thing, they would need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.

And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.

But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<38097h5iaftupbrh44d1bn9m6bfl5c9lug@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 02:02 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:08:56 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> > If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>> > please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>> > now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>> > dead on Tuesday?
>>
>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>
>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>> about it.
>>
>>I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>
>>But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>
>>Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>>_can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>
>Enlarging the Court isn't the answer.
>
>Two of the Justices appear to have testified, under oath, that they
>would respect and not try to overturn Roe v Wade. If they do, they can
>be impeached for moral turpitude.
>
>Two more recent Justices appear to have lied to /Republicans/ about
>respecting Roe v Wade. Since they were not under oath, this would be
>harder, but they, also, could be impeached and convicted for moral
>turpitude.
>
>But I don't think it's gonna happen. Even it Roe v Wade falls.

Impeach away. What makes you think it will any more effective when
applied to a Supreme Court justice than it did when applied to Trump.
To get them out of office you don't just have to impeach them, you
have to _convict_ them which requires a 2/3 majority in the Senate
that you do not have.

Oh, and lying under oath is called "perjury", not "moral turpitude".

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 6 May 2022 02:35 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:57:45 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
> that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
> diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.

> But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
> minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.

Well, if anyone's rights are being violated, anywhere in the world,
they should just be able to pick up the phone, and call the police,
who will come and put an immediate end to it.

No need of any "revolution" which might be messy. It is to simply
be the settled law of the entire globe, from pole to pole, across
all 360 degrees of longitude, that everyone has equal rights, and
these rights include the full assembly of democratic rights that
people in places like the United States take for granted.

People elect governments to make laws _within_ the over-arching
framework of everyone having equal rights. So a government can
change the speed limit from 50 miles an hour to 40 miles an hour;
but it _can't_ legalize slavery, or outlaw blasphemy, or do any other
funny stuff.

This would be because any attempt to impose inequality, deny
political freedom, and so on and so forth, would be prohibited by
the Constitutions of every single country - and every single country
would have a Supreme Court that conscientiously supports and
upholds these principles.

And if some political leader decided that he wanted to dismiss the
Supreme Court? Or if some "rough men with guns" tried to change
things in some other way?

By some means or another, that is *not to be allowed to happen*.
For example, nanotech might just cause their flesh to melt right
off their bones as soon as they try to put such a wicked plan into
action.

And I don't have one standard for Muslims in Pakistan... and
Southerners in the United States, either, despite what Terry
Austin keeps saying about my attitude towards "brown people".
All men of whatever color are equal in my sight, the only distinction
is between those who are righteous and those who are wicked.

People will be free - as long as they get along nicely, and obey
the conventional principles of liberty and democracy. Step out of
line, though, and you drop dead before you can make a nuisance
of yourself to any one else but yourself.

I will admit that it would be more consistent with liberty if people
weren't going through life, every second of every day, with a gun
pointed at their heads. But if people are going to behave so badly
that they make closer supervision necessary, then it's their fault,
isn't it?

After a thousand years or so of that, perhaps the world's wounds
will have healed, and no majority anywhere will be insane enough
to want anything but genuine tolerant, inclusive, and pluralistic
liberal democracy.

Innocent people are getting hurt, right this very minute, in Ukraine
for example, and so I now have zero patience with those responsible.
The world depends on a functioning United States on the side
of righteousness, equality, and liberty - and sinister forces are trying
to change that.

Many Americans are supporting Trump - because they have been
_lied_ to, not because he deserves anyone's support.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 6 May 2022 02:37 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:45:49 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:

> >But the advocates of segregation *in the South*
> >did not have to deal with any real problems; they were opposing it
> >entirely on the basis of their own evil racist delusions.

> So the advocates of segregation were opposing it?

No, it was _integration_ they were opposing based on their
delusions, I apologize for my error in wording.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 6 May 2022 02:44 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:45:49 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:

> >And I realize that some of the later elaborations on school integration
> >were problematic, because they exposed white students to a *real*
> >risk of violence.

> Oh, and here it comes, the "all black people are violent" bullshit.
> And you _think_ that you're so egalitarian.
>
> Black students were in more danger of "real violence" than white
> students. Black people lynching white people was rare. The other way
> around, not so much. Forcing them into contact with white people just
> meant more opportunity for some redneck to take offense.

I wasn't thinking of lynching, I was thinking of being robbed of
one's lunch money at knifepoint.

This isn't because black people are intrinsically violent, it's because
crime is a problem to be expected where there are poor people.

The problem was that not only was busing imposed, but the courts
also prohibited sending students who were discipline problems to
special schools, on the basis that this would be a subterfuge to
bring segregation back through the back door.

That might have made sense in the South. In New York, though, it
was insanity, and it would *produce*, through direct personal
experience, a generation of white people who hated blacks where
previously everyone had gotten along reasonably well.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 6 May 2022 03:00 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:02:05 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Oh, and lying under oath is called "perjury", not "moral turpitude".

Yes, but it's so hard to _prove_ that someone didn't just change
his mind as he studied the matter more deeply in order to render
a sober and fair judgment upon it.

I don't really mind Roe vs. Wade being overturned, in itself, as
it seems to me that human life is a continuum from syngamy
onwards, with birth being as trivial as weaning.

However, since it remains possible for men to rape women, at
least abortion for other reasons than dire medical necessity
will have to be allowed in some circumstances: the most reasonable
way would be to allow it before brain function has begun, since
it is the life of the person, not of a person's biological substrate,
that is sacred.

So I'd be okay with outlawing abortion after seven weeks.

All I ask is a glimmer of evidence that those behind such an effort
are doing so from a genuine concern for fetal life, and not from an
intent to create a theocratic state in which one view of sexual
morality is the law of the land.

This I don't have.

The Republicans who support Trumpism are the only ones
seeking to overthrow Roe vs. Wade. And they have shown
themselves to be utterly evil, corrupt, and depraved - by seeking
to discourage *black* people from voting, through ensuring
their neighborhoods don't have many polling stations, thus
requiring them to stand in long lines.

Oh, a law against giving food and water to people lined up to
vote isn't so bad, they could just bring their own food and water
in backpacks? You think the election police aren't going to claim
that any black man with a backpack probably has a gun or
something hidden in it?

In general, in normal times, I would indeed agree with you that
talk of rounding up all the conservatives and locking them up
is uncongenial to democracy. But when voter suppression is
*mainstream* in the Republican Party - and the year is 2022,
not 1895 - somehow, the Republican Party has metamorphosed
from being a responsible political party participating in a
multi-party democratic system, like it was in 1956, to being
a criminal conspiracy aimed at overthrowing the government.

I don't know how to deal with it, but since the United States of
America and its nuclear weapons are the only thing standing
between Canada and what is happening in Ukraine now, I expect
that it should be dealt with quickly.

John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 06:37 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 19:44:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:45:49 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>
>> >And I realize that some of the later elaborations on school integration
>> >were problematic, because they exposed white students to a *real*
>> >risk of violence.
>
>> Oh, and here it comes, the "all black people are violent" bullshit.
>> And you _think_ that you're so egalitarian.
>>
>> Black students were in more danger of "real violence" than white
>> students. Black people lynching white people was rare. The other way
>> around, not so much. Forcing them into contact with white people just
>> meant more opportunity for some redneck to take offense.
>
>I wasn't thinking of lynching, I was thinking of being robbed of
>one's lunch money at knifepoint.
>
>This isn't because black people are intrinsically violent, it's because
>crime is a problem to be expected where there are poor people.

The thing is, if a black kid robbed a white kid at knife-point in a
recently-integrated school he might well be strange fruit later that
afternoon. And the black kids _knew_ this.

>The problem was that not only was busing imposed, but the courts
>also prohibited sending students who were discipline problems to
>special schools, on the basis that this would be a subterfuge to
>bring segregation back through the back door.
>
>That might have made sense in the South. In New York, though, it
>was insanity, and it would *produce*, through direct personal
>experience, a generation of white people who hated blacks where
>previously everyone had gotten along reasonably well.
>
>John Savard

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<kjg97hlel49856j2j7uveoo06r9eu81c4o@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 6 May 2022 06:39 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 19:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:57:45 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
>> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
>> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
>> that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
>> diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.
>
>> But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
>> minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.
>
>Well, if anyone's rights are being violated, anywhere in the world,
>they should just be able to pick up the phone, and call the police,
>who will come and put an immediate end to it.
>
>No need of any "revolution" which might be messy. It is to simply
>be the settled law of the entire globe, from pole to pole, across
>all 360 degrees of longitude, that everyone has equal rights, and
>these rights include the full assembly of democratic rights that
>people in places like the United States take for granted.
>
>People elect governments to make laws _within_ the over-arching
>framework of everyone having equal rights. So a government can
>change the speed limit from 50 miles an hour to 40 miles an hour;
>but it _can't_ legalize slavery, or outlaw blasphemy, or do any other
>funny stuff.
>
>This would be because any attempt to impose inequality, deny
>political freedom, and so on and so forth, would be prohibited by
>the Constitutions of every single country - and every single country
>would have a Supreme Court that conscientiously supports and
>upholds these principles.
>
>And if some political leader decided that he wanted to dismiss the
>Supreme Court? Or if some "rough men with guns" tried to change
>things in some other way?
>
>By some means or another, that is *not to be allowed to happen*.
>For example, nanotech might just cause their flesh to melt right
>off their bones as soon as they try to put such a wicked plan into
>action.
>
>And I don't have one standard for Muslims in Pakistan... and
>Southerners in the United States, either, despite what Terry
>Austin keeps saying about my attitude towards "brown people".
>All men of whatever color are equal in my sight, the only distinction
>is between those who are righteous and those who are wicked.
>
>People will be free - as long as they get along nicely, and obey
>the conventional principles of liberty and democracy. Step out of
>line, though, and you drop dead before you can make a nuisance
>of yourself to any one else but yourself.
>
>I will admit that it would be more consistent with liberty if people
>weren't going through life, every second of every day, with a gun
>pointed at their heads. But if people are going to behave so badly
>that they make closer supervision necessary, then it's their fault,
>isn't it?
>
>After a thousand years or so of that, perhaps the world's wounds
>will have healed, and no majority anywhere will be insane enough
>to want anything but genuine tolerant, inclusive, and pluralistic
>liberal democracy.
>
>Innocent people are getting hurt, right this very minute, in Ukraine
>for example, and so I now have zero patience with those responsible.
>The world depends on a functioning United States on the side
>of righteousness, equality, and liberty - and sinister forces are trying
>to change that.
>
>Many Americans are supporting Trump - because they have been
>_lied_ to, not because he deserves anyone's support.

Have you ever, once in your life, visited the real world?

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:52 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 05 May 2022 18:03:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:

>>I hear the wokesters say grossly offensive things all the time but I
>>don't advocate putting them in the stocks and throwing rotten tomatoes
>>at them much as some of them would richly deserve it.
>
>On the other hand I hear with great regularity such people demanding
>an end to conservatism, that all conservatives be jailed or worse,
>that conservative political parties be banned, and the like.

How about a few citations? Preferablly to something a bit more
mainstream than Usenet.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
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 by: Jack Bohn - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:24 UTC

Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:26:19 AM UTC-6, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> > Quadibloc wrote:
> > >
> > > I learned, or at least was reminded, that Jerry Falwell was far more evil
> > > than I had realized: he dared to oppose _Brown vs. Board of Education_;
> > > he wanted to segregate the schools, so that black people would be
> > > denied the equal opportunity to go to college and succeed.
> > >
> > > It is incomprehensible to me that he was allowed to have any kind
> > > of public platform after that. The FCC should have totally banned
> > > him, and all other segregationists, from the airwaves.
>
> > As he was advocating the state of affairs before the Supreme Court decision,
> > it would take a rather quickly-pivoting government body to ban any discussion
> > of subjects against current laws. You have discovered a practical reason
> > against censoring the content of speech, for those who don't understand
> > the civil or moral reasons.
> Oh, I believe in freedom of speech!
>
> So segregationists could still make their case in print.
>
> But the limited resource of the airwaves, with its pivotal
> role in shaping mass consciousness, needs to be limited
> to constructive content.

No, this isn't an objection that can be answered by it only being a little bit of censorship.
It has to do with the principle of no ex post facto laws: the citizenry needs a clear idea of what will or will not get them banned from the airwaves, either a list of topics disallowed, or a list of the only opinions they can express. As you mention a historical circumstance, in a developing situation, I suggest there is also a window of allowance, a time when people can discuss our relationship with eastasia before we agree we have always been at war with eastasia.

--
-Jack

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 6 May 2022 15:27 UTC

On Thu, 05 May 2022 17:55:10 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 May 2022 09:10:09 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 3 May 2022 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 10:25:53 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> Despite having clearly stated that God Himself chose each and every
>>>> word (presumably in the original language), he repeatedly asserts that
>>>> we are reading John's /own/ description of what he saw. Thus he falls
>>>> between two stools: the words are God's -- but they aren't, they are
>>>> John's.
>>>
>>>As the Bible is absolutely inerrant, in addition to being _inspired_ by
>>>the Holy Spirit, one presumably has to throw in *proofread* by the
>>>Holy Spirit as well. I'm not sure that should be a problem for an
>>>omnipotent God.
>>
>>So far, Lindsey hasn't made the "inerrancy" claim.
>>
>>But perhaps he cannot conceive of any alternative being possible.
>
>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.

/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.

These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
1912-1913.

I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
convincing.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

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