On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:21:55 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:

> >There is apparently an explanation entirely in terms of Russian internal
> >politics: Putin has made alliance with the Patriarch of the Russian
> >Orthodox Church and is presenting himself as the defender of Orthodox
> >Russian values (in both senses) against foreign decadence. - I don't
> >doubt that he would be happy to spout any line that divides his enemies,
> >but in this case the exterior effect is merely a bonus. Supposedly Putin
> >was baptised by his Mother and has always worn a cross.

That seems inconsistent with rising through the ranks in the KGB...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man

> I hate to break it to the Guardian but if they think being a "defender
> of Christianity" is antithetical to being "The Most Evil Man" they
> might want to research a fellow named "Torquemada".

That is completely wrong-headed! Everyone knows that
Torquemada wore underwear beneath his kilt!

Or, in plain English: while being a most evil man is not
inconsistent with being a pretended defender of Christianity,
as both Torquemada and Putin illustrate (among others),
_true_ Christianity is, of course, that which was set forth by
Jesus, which was peaceful and mild, filled with sweetness and
light. No one who is evil could be a true defender of real
Christianity!

John Savard

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:21:55 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> >There is apparently an explanation entirely in terms of Russian internal
>> >politics: Putin has made alliance with the Patriarch of the Russian
>> >Orthodox Church and is presenting himself as the defender of Orthodox
>> >Russian values (in both senses) against foreign decadence. - I don't
>> >doubt that he would be happy to spout any line that divides his enemies,
>> >but in this case the exterior effect is merely a bonus. Supposedly Putin
>> >was baptised by his Mother and has always worn a cross.
>
>That seems inconsistent with rising through the ranks in the KGB...
>
>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man
>
>> I hate to break it to the Guardian but if they think being a "defender
>> of Christianity" is antithetical to being "The Most Evil Man" they
>> might want to research a fellow named "Torquemada".
>
>That is completely wrong-headed! Everyone knows that
>Torquemada wore underwear beneath his kilt!
>
>Or, in plain English: while being a most evil man is not
>inconsistent with being a pretended defender of Christianity,
>as both Torquemada and Putin illustrate (among others),
>_true_ Christianity is, of course, that which was set forth by
>Jesus, which was peaceful and mild, filled with sweetness and
>light. No one who is evil could be a true defender of real
>Christianity!

So when has such a gentle and mild person every been given a title of
the general nature of "Defender of the Faith"?

Remember Dr. Zaius' title in "Planet of the Apes"?

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 11:30:00 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> So when has such a gentle and mild person every been given a title of
> the general nature of "Defender of the Faith"?

I'll definitely agree that Henry VIII doesn't qualify as gentle and mild.

But, come to think of it, some of his _successors_ might qualify.

I mean, I can think of a woman with some pet Corgis about whom
there is little to complain...

John Savard

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:12:28 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> That is completely wrong-headed! Everyone knows that
> Torquemada wore underwear beneath his kilt!

Trews, of course! Trews I should have said!

John Savard

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 2:59:28 PM UTC, Paul S Person wrote:

<snippo>

>> Apparently, he gave a speech which sounded a whole lot like a
>> Republican Party position: the usual "cancel culture" and other
>> nonsense.
>>
>> Debased minds think alike? Putin turning Republican? Republicans
>> revealed as the Party of Putin? Who can say?

>There is apparently an explanation entirely in terms of Russian internal politics: Putin has made alliance with the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church and is presenting himself as the defender of Orthodox Russian values (in both senses) against foreign decadence. - I don't doubt that he would be happy to spout any line that divides his enemies, but in this case the exterior effect is merely a bonus. Supposedly Putin was baptised by his Mother and has always worn a cross. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man

And yet, when the Patriarch gave an address supporting Putin's Folly,
the Patriarch was said to have been co-opted by and entirely
subservient to Putin.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2022-03-27 9:49 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 2:59:28 PM UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> <snippo>
>
>>> Apparently, he gave a speech which sounded a whole lot like a
>>> Republican Party position: the usual "cancel culture" and other
>>> nonsense.
>>>
>>> Debased minds think alike? Putin turning Republican? Republicans
>>> revealed as the Party of Putin? Who can say?
>
>> There is apparently an explanation entirely in terms of Russian internal politics: Putin has made alliance with the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church and is presenting himself as the defender of Orthodox Russian values (in both senses) against foreign decadence. - I don't doubt that he would be happy to spout any line that divides his enemies, but in this case the exterior effect is merely a bonus. Supposedly Putin was baptised by his Mother and has always worn a cross. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man
>
> And yet, when the Patriarch gave an address supporting Putin's Folly,
> the Patriarch was said to have been co-opted by and entirely
> subservient to Putin.

Well he is. Putin's admixture of religion and nationalism doesn't keep
him from being the one calling the shots. The Russian Orthodox Church
originated as a state religion the first place.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 13:29:59 -0600, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2022-03-27 9:49 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 2:59:28 PM UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>> <snippo>
>>
>>>> Apparently, he gave a speech which sounded a whole lot like a
>>>> Republican Party position: the usual "cancel culture" and other
>>>> nonsense.
>>>>
>>>> Debased minds think alike? Putin turning Republican? Republicans
>>>> revealed as the Party of Putin? Who can say?
>>
>>> There is apparently an explanation entirely in terms of Russian internal politics: Putin has made alliance with the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church and is presenting himself as the defender of Orthodox Russian values (in both senses) against foreign decadence. - I don't doubt that he would be happy to spout any line that divides his enemies, but in this case the exterior effect is merely a bonus. Supposedly Putin was baptised by his Mother and has always worn a cross. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man
>>
>> And yet, when the Patriarch gave an address supporting Putin's Folly,
>> the Patriarch was said to have been co-opted by and entirely
>> subservient to Putin.
>
>Well he is. Putin's admixture of religion and nationalism doesn't keep
>him from being the one calling the shots. The Russian Orthodox Church
>originated as a state religion the first place.

So, Putin is supporting a form a religion he himself created and
controls?

No wonder he's gone beyond the bend!

And, yes, Russian Orthodoxy does stand in the tradition of State
Churches. In many ways, in the very worst sense possible.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 6:40:04 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

> Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy
> under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great
> man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories...
> only makes sense.

> I cannot really in good conscience urge David Weber to take his Honor
> Harrington series and retcon it as a show of support for the struggle of
> the Ukrainian people.
> Instead, one could view this as a lesson in being overly gratuitous in
> including references to contemporary politics in science fiction about
> the future.

I might have had to amend this somewhat... had it not been for the fact
that _On Basilisk Station_ was first published in April, 1993.

Prior to March 1999. That was when, after a war in which Serbian forces
destroyed housing and murdered civilians in Kosovo, *Boris Yeltsin*, not
Vladimir Putin, criticized the NATO response of air strikes against Serbia
as "aggression".

So at least in hindsight we can see that the rot set in even before Putin
came along.

John Savard

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 6:40:04 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy
>> under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great
>> man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories...
>> only makes sense.
>
>> I cannot really in good conscience urge David Weber to take his Honor
>> Harrington series and retcon it as a show of support for the struggle of
>> the Ukrainian people.
>> Instead, one could view this as a lesson in being overly gratuitous in
>> including references to contemporary politics in science fiction about
>> the future.
>
>I might have had to amend this somewhat... had it not been for the fact
>that _On Basilisk Station_ was first published in April, 1993.
>
>Prior to March 1999. That was when, after a war in which Serbian forces
>destroyed housing and murdered civilians in Kosovo, *Boris Yeltsin*, not
>Vladimir Putin, criticized the NATO response of air strikes against Serbia
>as "aggression".
>
>So at least in hindsight we can see that the rot set in even before Putin
>came along.

You're implying that the rot ever _left_.

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:04 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> You're implying that the rot ever _left_.

Yes, that _is_ a debatable conclusion, but at least the rot
seemed to be rather less severe in the later days of Gorbachev
and the earlier days of Yeltsin.

John Savard

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:46:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:04 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> You're implying that the rot ever _left_.
>
>Yes, that _is_ a debatable conclusion, but at least the rot
>seemed to be rather less severe in the later days of Gorbachev
>and the earlier days of Yeltsin.

It's not "rot".

It's standard Russian behavior from some point in the time of the
czars.

They view themselves and the lords, masters, and protectors of all the
lesser Slavs.

Well, except the Ukrainians, of course. And the Poles. Especially the
Poles.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:28:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:46:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:04 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> You're implying that the rot ever _left_.
> >
> >Yes, that _is_ a debatable conclusion, but at least the rot
> >seemed to be rather less severe in the later days of Gorbachev
> >and the earlier days of Yeltsin.

> It's not "rot".
>
> It's standard Russian behavior from some point in the time of the
> czars.

After Gorbachev began to place Russia on the right path with _glasnost_,
and then Communism went away with Yeltsin taking over, what was
expected was that Russia would turn away from the path of wickedness,
and set forth upon the path of righteousness.

Which means no more invading Ukraine than would the United States
invade Canada.

But, alas, in Chechnya even under Yeltsin, Russia ceased walking on the
path of righteousness, but again descended to the path of wickedness.

Righteousness is doing as the United States says. Not necessarily as
the United States does, because certainly there were times during
history when it was imperfect - which is how the term "banana republic"
entered our language.

So if a nation takes to heart the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of
Rights, and, most especially, the Fourteen Points, then it will be started
on the road of righteousness.

Going from righteousness to wickedness is indeed decay.

And because Russia has its hands on atomic weapons, there seems to be
no way to reform the psychology of that nation in the effective manner that
was applied to Germany and Japan in 1945.

John Savard

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:

> After Gorbachev began to place Russia on the right path with _glasnost_,
> and then Communism went away with Yeltsin taking over, what was
> expected was that Russia would turn away from the path of wickedness,
> and set forth upon the path of righteousness.
>
> Which means no more invading Ukraine than would the United States
> invade Canada.

Ob 1/4 SF: The TV adaption of the Murdoch Mysteries, where,
around 1900, some protagonists are a little worried about just that.

Why SF? Well, Murdoch's inventions sometimes push SF.

On 3/6/2022 7:40 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> It is not surprising that an author of mil-SF would be an ardent lover of liberty and a patriotic American.
> Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories... only makes sense.
....
> John Savard

You know, it may be time for a Honor Harrington reread. I only have 500
books in my SBR (strategic book reserve), a few more good books in the
triple stack bookcase would be cool.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 3/6/2022 7:40 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> It is not surprising that an author of mil-SF would be an ardent lover of liberty and a patriotic American.
>> Thus, when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Russia became a democracy under Boris Yeltsin, for David Weber to show his admiration for this great man by having things named for Yeltsin in his Honor Harrington stories... only makes sense.
> ...
>> John Savard
>
> You know, it may be time for a Honor Harrington reread. I only have 500
> books in my SBR (strategic book reserve), a few more good books in the
> triple stack bookcase would be cool.

Stop soon enough, "Mission of Honor" is probably the first one to avoid
(IIRC).

This YouTube video, about an old Superman adventure, is made all the more poignant by recent events in Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU9A7bf2-dM

John Savard