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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: Isaiah 9:6

SubjectAuthor
* Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Dorothy J Heydt
|`- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
|`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Charles Packer
|  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
|   |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Doctor
|   ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   || `- Re: Isaiah 9:6The Doctor
|   |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |       +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Michael F. Stemper
|   |       +* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       |+- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
|   |       |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
|   |       | +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |       | |+- Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
|   |       | |`- Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       | `- Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
|   |       `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |        `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   |         `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
|   |          `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
|   `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Charles Packer
`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
 `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Dorothy J Heydt
  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Robert Carnegie
     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       +* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Jack Bohn
       |||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||| `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Jack Bohn
       ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||| +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||| +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||| |`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       ||||  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       ||| `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       |||  +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Scott Lurndal
       |||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       |||   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |||    `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
       || `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||  +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||   +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       ||      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       ||       `- Re: Isaiah 9:6The Horny Goat
       |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       || |+* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || ||+* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       || |||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
       || ||`- Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       || |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       || | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6pete...@gmail.com
       || |  `- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       || `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       ||  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       ||   `- Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |`* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       | `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |  `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |   +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Lynn McGuire
       |   `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |    `* Re: Isaiah 9:6David Johnston
       |     +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
       |     `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
       |      `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Kevrob
       |       `- Re: Isaiah 9:6William Hyde
       `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
        +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
        `* Re: Isaiah 9:6J. Clarke
         +- Re: Isaiah 9:6Quadibloc
         +* Re: Isaiah 9:6Paul S Person
         `* Re: Isaiah 9:6Kevrob

Pages:12345
Re: Isaiah 9:6

<ktpf7hpibv0sfv22fnopd6ev8hia73904m@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73132&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73132

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Message-ID: <ktpf7hpibv0sfv22fnopd6ev8hia73904m@4ax.com>
References: <1245b7a0-3560-4975-87ab-89c815846b40n@googlegroups.com> <t4v7gg$pj5$1@dont-email.me> <a2633d3b-50a1-4d18-8781-492a99244a01n@googlegroups.com> <fgt77h56ttclsp3vkk1ciprcji6ev2sru4@4ax.com> <38097h5iaftupbrh44d1bn9m6bfl5c9lug@4ax.com> <kkga7h1sq98evii01ev4cgqckeuupe0r3e@4ax.com> <fjpa7hh2kg0f605dker89ego1k5u1ku1ja@4ax.com> <a3ba7e2e-5991-464f-9bf4-817f4deaa17cn@googlegroups.com> <4m0b7hpll61n7nvo202q265696874o0198@4ax.com> <ar3d7hl1tke2thr1jvl0kl1dqh4lgvd1ai@4ax.com>
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 8 May 2022 15:57 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 08:27:15 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>
>If it is the law of the land, and established precedent, then
>overturning it is acting in direct opposition to their stated
>positions. Which is to say, it shows their statements to be lies.
>
>And the reversal, if it occurs, to be bad behavior.

Appeal courts overturn established precedents all the time and nobody
considers that an act of "moral turpitude". Indeed - there's a
standard for what is required to overturn a previous precedent and the
bar is deliberately set high.

It's only 'moral turpitude' if those standards to overturn a precedent
are frivolously discussed in rulings or other forms of bad faith.

Normally high court justices don't overturn former precedents without
reasons that (in their own opinion at least) have some pretty high
standards of logic and legal expertise behind them.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<k6qf7hdbumeeqnklke27do21jialnrvvvs@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Message-ID: <k6qf7hdbumeeqnklke27do21jialnrvvvs@4ax.com>
References: <75776dc1-1eb6-4b41-b1e6-7ccc5992fc41n@googlegroups.com> <aq617hdksac3a5j19l3rheiho3vkvko31k@4ax.com> <25473a8b-d561-496c-8eb9-f7374a05877dn@googlegroups.com> <bi5cK.184254$Kdf.46218@fx96.iad> <0fl27h95etfg6p7k5tgk1tctk7031498lv@4ax.com> <beca0f91-7f15-4923-af57-1cda3ca9c44an@googlegroups.com> <k8957h1f005aa7p9qd5095uchif08gscm8@4ax.com> <9cs87h1pq4dk0qoqmhhaf5827ejhfl7bab@4ax.com> <f8fa7ht7shbp0v3s6ap9k504ha0a6n8ogl@4ax.com>
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:04 UTC

On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>
>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>
>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>1912-1913.
>
>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>convincing.

I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.

My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
prophet had written.

But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<nl4g7ht00hvlb3qfjt8etuu35359b3oqb8@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: J. Clarke - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:01 UTC

On Sun, 08 May 2022 08:11:29 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 May 2022 21:45:44 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>As for the inferior resources, schools today put a lot of store in
>>"resources" and very little store in actually expecting students to
>>learn the material being taught.
>
>That was after all one of the key arguments in Brown v Board of
>Education - since it was demonstrated that budgets for 'white schools'
>vs 'black schools' were something like 4 or 5 to 1 per pupil and it
>was argued (and the high justices agreed) that that wasn't at all
>equal which was the standard from Plessy.
>
>>>And I realize that some of the later elaborations on school integration
>>>were problematic, because they exposed white students to a *real*
>>>risk of violence.
>
>Was physical evidence presented on that?
>
>I mean I faced violence at school several times but it wasn't racially
>based - just 2 bullies 4 years apart.
>
>>>Now, if we ever had a situation of 'separate but equal' where the
>>>"equal" part was actually *enforced*, then history would have travelled
>>>down a different path, but that isn't the history of the world we live in.
>
>Absolutely true though I think we all know that in 'separate but
>equal' the emphasis was FAR more on the first than the second - in
>fact ensuring it actually WAS unequal was the whole point of the
>bigotry.
>
>>Yeah, more legislation from the bench by elderly, ignorant, well
>>intended white people trying to "save" black people without ever
>>bothering to ask them what they thought about it.
>
>If there really was any real effort to make things 'equal' (which I'd
>interpret in terms of funding more than any other factor) I'd tend to
>agree with you but in terms of what ACTUALLY was going on I'd say the
>justices in Brown made the right call.

If in fact this resulted in better outcomes for black students, then
they made the right call. If it did not then they wasted everybody's
time and money. So did it?

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<vu4g7hp8bmpk79kuhb0s5gjsdblhih38bl@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Message-ID: <vu4g7hp8bmpk79kuhb0s5gjsdblhih38bl@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:07 UTC

On Sun, 8 May 2022 08:33:45 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:10:26 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> They weren't asked for "positions", they were asked what the law was.
>
>Oh, no. They were asked what they thought of Roe vs. Wade and what
>their plans were for it, and they evaded the question by saying,
>truthfully, what the law was instead.

OK, Quadi, quote the exact question that was posed in each case, and
the answer.

Of course they could have been questioned under fast-penta while
connected to a veridicator and monitored by a treecat and a Bene
Gesserit truthsayer and you would still claim that they "lied" if it
suited your narrative.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<s2di7hp1qlfq1nmprsl5akid4thet5ltp1@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:38 UTC

On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>
>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>>
>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>1912-1913.
>>
>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>convincing.
>
>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.

Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
everywhere.

>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>prophet had written.

That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
happened.

Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.

>But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
>Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.

Actually, I was surprised when I looked "Balkan Wars" up to find they
were that late. I thought they were around 1905 or so. But perhaps
there were wars in the Balkans then too. Or maybe I'm thinking of
Tsushima in some muddled fashion.

Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
considered on topic here.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<jbli7hlv284bg2cc00b9mot0eet85h7gt6@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Message-ID: <jbli7hlv284bg2cc00b9mot0eet85h7gt6@4ax.com>
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 by: The Horny Goat - Mon, 9 May 2022 18:04 UTC

On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>>
>>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.

I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.

>>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>>1912-1913.
>>>
>>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>>convincing.
>>
>>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
>
>Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
>everywhere.

Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.

>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>prophet had written.
>
>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>happened.
>
>Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
>something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.

While I'm very definitely familiar with some of the nutty theories you
mention (and am familiar with the origins of the Adventists and JWs)
my grandfather was very definitely not one of those but actually
fairly mainstream within Evangelical circles.

>>But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
>>Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.
>
>Actually, I was surprised when I looked "Balkan Wars" up to find they
>were that late. I thought they were around 1905 or so. But perhaps
>there were wars in the Balkans then too. Or maybe I'm thinking of
>Tsushima in some muddled fashion.

If you are thinking Tsushima you are definitely muddled. Tell me if
you think this is anywhere near the Balkans:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/tsushima+battle+site/@34.744744,130.7768084,8z/data=!3m1!4b1

>Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
>considered on topic here.

Heh heh - too true.

Though if you want religious SF check out some of Orson Scott Card's
Alvin Maker stories. Although it's not specifically an LDS series
there are a lot of early LDS elements in the stories about a very
alternate America.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<tt1l7hl2d5b3gu5ldeh7mqc8dv1b7a2268@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73202&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73202

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 08:56:00 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:56 UTC

On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>>>
>>>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>
>I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
>question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
>then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
>but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.

Hal Lindsey /There's A New World Coming/. Copyright 1973. So the
military tech would be late 60s/early 70s rather than my earlier
estimate.

There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
(no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
theirs than God's.

>>>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>>>1912-1913.
>>>>
>>>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>>>convincing.
>>>
>>>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>>>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>>>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>>>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
>>
>>Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
>>everywhere.
>
>Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.

These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.

>>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>>prophet had written.
>>
>>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>>happened.
>>
>>Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
>>something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.
>
>While I'm very definitely familiar with some of the nutty theories you
>mention (and am familiar with the origins of the Adventists and JWs)
>my grandfather was very definitely not one of those but actually
>fairly mainstream within Evangelical circles.

That's fine. This book, and others like them, were inherited from my
maternal Grandfather, a Lutheran pastor. Which is about as far from
Lindsey as you can get. But he had an interest in Revelation.

>>>But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
>>>Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.
>>
>>Actually, I was surprised when I looked "Balkan Wars" up to find they
>>were that late. I thought they were around 1905 or so. But perhaps
>>there were wars in the Balkans then too. Or maybe I'm thinking of
>>Tsushima in some muddled fashion.
>
>If you are thinking Tsushima you are definitely muddled. Tell me if
>you think this is anywhere near the Balkans:
>https://www.google.com/maps/search/tsushima+battle+site/@34.744744,130.7768084,8z/data=!3m1!4b1

Well, of course it isn't. That was why I said "muddled".

>>Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
>>considered on topic here.
>
>Heh heh - too true.
>
>Though if you want religious SF check out some of Orson Scott Card's
>Alvin Maker stories. Although it's not specifically an LDS series
>there are a lot of early LDS elements in the stories about a very
>alternate America.

I've read most of them, but only kept the first two.

Not because of the Mormonism -- it just got more and more drawn out
for no good reason that I could see.

I didn't keep any of the series started by /The Memory of Earth/. It
took far too long to get off-planet, and then all the characters
except one vanished and were replaced. And then he re-used something
from the Prentice Alvin series and, really, once was enough.

But I found the Women of Genesis series to be quite readable. Despite
the Patriarch's spending all their time copying scrolls, apparently a
Mormon tradition.

So, for me, when Card is good, he is very very good, but when he is
not -- he isn't.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t5ea3g$ucf$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73210&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73210

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From: michael....@gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 13:15:05 -0500
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 by: Michael F. Stemper - Tue, 10 May 2022 18:15 UTC

On 10/05/2022 10.56, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
> wrote:

>> Though if you want religious SF check out some of Orson Scott Card's
>> Alvin Maker stories. Although it's not specifically an LDS series
>> there are a lot of early LDS elements in the stories about a very
>> alternate America.
>
> I've read most of them, but only kept the first two.
>
> Not because of the Mormonism -- it just got more and more drawn out
> for no good reason that I could see.
>
> I didn't keep any of the series started by /The Memory of Earth/. It
> took far too long to get off-planet, and then all the characters
> except one vanished and were replaced. And then he re-used something
> from the Prentice Alvin series and, really, once was enough.

I quite liked the Homecoming series the first time that I read it. The
society portrayed was different enough from ours to hold my interest.

In that first reading, I got a distinct _Acts of the Apostles_ vibe from it.
Only later did I realize that it was really based on _The Book of Mormon_.

The second time around, I got through it _until_ the refugees reached
Earth, and then bounced hard. So hard that I then sold all five books.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:3-4

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<809842d4-b391-4e04-a3ae-13a3ca49b687n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:45:36 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: pete...@gmail.com - Wed, 11 May 2022 00:45 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
> >>><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
> >>>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
> >>>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
> >>>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
> >>>>
> >>>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
> >>>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
> >>>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
> >
> >I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
> >question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
> >then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
> >but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.
> Hal Lindsey /There's A New World Coming/. Copyright 1973. So the
> military tech would be late 60s/early 70s rather than my earlier
> estimate.
>
> There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
> (no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
> themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
> theirs than God's.
> >>>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
> >>>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
> >>>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
> >>>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
> >>>>1912-1913.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
> >>>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
> >>>>convincing.
> >>>
> >>>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
> >>>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
> >>>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
> >>>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
> >>
> >>Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
> >>everywhere.
> >
> >Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.
> These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
> prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
> per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
> knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
> figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.

I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."

Pt

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t5f4r6$3j2$2@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 20:51:34 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 11 May 2022 01:51 UTC

On 5/10/2022 7:45 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>>>>> mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>>>>> plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>>>>> "help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>>>>> what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>>>>> weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>>>
>>> I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
>>> question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
>>> then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
>>> but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.
>> Hal Lindsey /There's A New World Coming/. Copyright 1973. So the
>> military tech would be late 60s/early 70s rather than my earlier
>> estimate.
>>
>> There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
>> (no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
>> themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
>> theirs than God's.
>>>>>> These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>>>>> if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>>>>> world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>>>>> described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>>>>> 1912-1913.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>>>>> WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>>>>> convincing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>>>>> of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>>>>> judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>>>>> temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
>>>>
>>>> Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
>>>> everywhere.
>>>
>>> Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.
>> These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
>> prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
>> per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
>> knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
>> figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
>
> I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
> and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."
>
> Pt

Sure, by God. Man, no.

Lynn

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 20:53:07 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 11 May 2022 01:53 UTC

On 5/6/2022 10:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2022 21:57:40 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:06:31 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 01:24:15 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>>>>>> please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>>>>>> now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>>>>>> dead on Tuesday?
>>>>>
>>>>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>>>>> about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>>>>> _can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>>>>
>>>> And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
>>>> gets reversed again.
>>>>
>>>> The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
>>>> requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
>>>> impatient to build.
>>>
>>> They don't have the votes now, and aren't likely to have them after
>>> next November, no matter what happens.
>>>
>>> For one thing, they would need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.
>>
>> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
>> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
>> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
>> that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
>> diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.
>>
>> But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
>> minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.
>
> Oh, /I/ can wait for that. Bernie and friends may not be able to, but
> they aren't the ones that are going to solve the problem.
>
> And, much as I wish it weren't so, the Dems chronic inability to
> campaign effectively will make it take a lot longer.
>
> If Roe falls, and a Constitutional Amendment is not practical, then I
> would expect to see a slow withdrawal of major corporations and
> venture capital from those States, shrinking their economies. Also a
> pattern of emigration to saner States, reducing their influence in the
> House.

Oh my goodness, please. We are really getting tired of immigrants to
Texas, legal or illegal.

Lynn

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Wed, 11 May 2022 04:10 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 6:53:11 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 10:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Thu, 05 May 2022 21:57:40 -0400, J. Clarke
> > <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:06:31 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 01:24:15 -0400, J. Clarke
> >>> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> If we are discussing this coming court decision,
> >>>>>>> please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
> >>>>>>> now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
> >>>>>>> dead on Tuesday?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
> >>>>>> about it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
> >>>>> _can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
> >>>>
> >>>> And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
> >>>> gets reversed again.
> >>>>
> >>>> The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
> >>>> requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
> >>>> impatient to build.
> >>>
> >>> They don't have the votes now, and aren't likely to have them after
> >>> next November, no matter what happens.
> >>>
> >>> For one thing, they would need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.
> >>
> >> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
> >> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
> >> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
> >> that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
> >> diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.
> >>
> >> But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
> >> minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.
> >
> > Oh, /I/ can wait for that. Bernie and friends may not be able to, but
> > they aren't the ones that are going to solve the problem.
> >
> > And, much as I wish it weren't so, the Dems chronic inability to
> > campaign effectively will make it take a lot longer.
> >
> > If Roe falls, and a Constitutional Amendment is not practical, then I
> > would expect to see a slow withdrawal of major corporations and
> > venture capital from those States, shrinking their economies. Also a
> > pattern of emigration to saner States, reducing their influence in the
> > House.
> Oh my goodness, please. We are really getting tired of immigrants to
> Texas, legal or illegal.

So, anyone not a full blood Native American should go home?

Pt

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<tipm7h174pckr1eagnjoavpi6ckuv4ip7j@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 11 May 2022 07:43 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 08:56:00 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>>>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>>>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>>
>>I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
>>question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
>>then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
>>but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.
>
>Hal Lindsey /There's A New World Coming/. Copyright 1973. So the
>military tech would be late 60s/early 70s rather than my earlier
>estimate.

There's no question this minister would have been aware of Lindsay but
he was not the sort who would be an enthusiast for Lindsay's type of
fantasies.

>There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
>(no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
>themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
>theirs than God's.

Yup - I read a lot of that kind of material in my late teens. In
between the Foundation series and the various Dune books...

>>>>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>>>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>>>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>>>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>>>>1912-1913.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>>>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>>>>convincing.
>>>>
>>>>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>>>>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>>>>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>>>>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
>>>
>>>Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
>>>everywhere.
>>
>>Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.
>
>These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
>prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
>per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
>knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
>figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.

There are all kinds of evangelists making hay of all kinds of passages
and the above minister I mentioned said several times that a mature
faith was based on all of it not just one or two favorite passages. As
I say a wise man and gone too soon.

>>>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>>>prophet had written.
>>>
>>>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>>>happened.

1918 wasn't it? Something like that - the return that never was that
is.

>>>Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
>>>something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.
>>
>>While I'm very definitely familiar with some of the nutty theories you
>>mention (and am familiar with the origins of the Adventists and JWs)
>>my grandfather was very definitely not one of those but actually
>>fairly mainstream within Evangelical circles.
>
>That's fine. This book, and others like them, were inherited from my
>maternal Grandfather, a Lutheran pastor. Which is about as far from
>Lindsey as you can get. But he had an interest in Revelation.

Hal Lindsay was very definitely not the first of those who went
overboard on Daniel, The Revelation and all the other apocalyptic
passages you cite.

>>>>But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
>>>>Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.
>>>
>>>Actually, I was surprised when I looked "Balkan Wars" up to find they
>>>were that late. I thought they were around 1905 or so. But perhaps
>>>there were wars in the Balkans then too. Or maybe I'm thinking of
>>>Tsushima in some muddled fashion.
>>
>>If you are thinking Tsushima you are definitely muddled. Tell me if
>>you think this is anywhere near the Balkans:
>>https://www.google.com/maps/search/tsushima+battle+site/@34.744744,130.7768084,8z/data=!3m1!4b1
>
>Well, of course it isn't. That was why I said "muddled".

Well Tsushima was during the Russo-Japanese war. Russia was not
involved in any of the Balkan wars though was said to be supporting
whichever Balkan state was at that time most anti-Austria. In August
1914 of course that was Serbia. Bulgaria later joined the Central
Powers in attacking first Serbia then Rumania.

>>>Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
>>>considered on topic here.
>>
>>Heh heh - too true.
>>
>>Though if you want religious SF check out some of Orson Scott Card's
>>Alvin Maker stories. Although it's not specifically an LDS series
>>there are a lot of early LDS elements in the stories about a very
>>alternate America.
>
>I've read most of them, but only kept the first two.

>Not because of the Mormonism -- it just got more and more drawn out
>for no good reason that I could see.

I read the third as well and by that time found it was more fantasy
than SF and since at that point I hadn't really gotten beyond Tolkien
I wasn't interested. Besides by the 3rd Alvin Maker I was convinced
Card was getting paid by the word.

>I didn't keep any of the series started by /The Memory of Earth/. It
>took far too long to get off-planet, and then all the characters
>except one vanished and were replaced. And then he re-used something
>from the Prentice Alvin series and, really, once was enough.

Never read any of those - from your description it would seem to be
worth a miss (even though I've read nearly all the Ender series
(including the original Enders' Game in Analog which is where it was
first published as a novella before it was later expanded))

>But I found the Women of Genesis series to be quite readable. Despite
>the Patriarch's spending all their time copying scrolls, apparently a
>Mormon tradition.
>
>So, for me, when Card is good, he is very very good, but when he is
>not -- he isn't.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Wed, 11 May 2022 10:36 UTC

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 01:45:38 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> > These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
> > prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
> > per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
> > knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
> > figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
>
> I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
> and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."

So what was the date to be? Just so we can be prepared?

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<6amn7h5nhbve7fq9sh9f59l73s6tjuc9g7@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 08:43:55 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 11 May 2022 15:43 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 03:36:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 01:45:38 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
>> > These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
>> > prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
>> > per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
>> > knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
>> > figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
>>
>> I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
>> and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."
>
>So what was the date to be? Just so we can be prepared?

Sadly, it's a moveable feast.

But it's always in the future.

And they always have an excuse when the date is reached and ...
nothing happens.

This is, of course, embarassing to those involved. But, somehow, they
either pick themselves up and start all over again or somebody new
pops up with a new date.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<5imn7htpi0tcp2eel6u7apefegtfckjq9g@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:07 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 00:43:08 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2022 08:56:00 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>On the other hand I >have< heard a Christian minister suggest that
>>>>>>>mankind has had the technological ability to bring about all the
>>>>>>>plagues described in the book of Revelation on our own without divine
>>>>>>>"help" since around 1975 in a somewhat literal sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/That/ is a keystone of the book: John (well, God) isn't describing
>>>>>>what he's describing -- he's describing 70's/80's level advanced
>>>>>>weaponry. And the Yellow Peril.
>>>
>>>I don't know what book you're referring to but the minister in
>>>question led a rather large big city congregation first in Montreal
>>>then Vancouver. He happens to be buried about 20' from my grandparents
>>>but that's coincidental. Gone way too soon in my books.
>>
>>Hal Lindsey /There's A New World Coming/. Copyright 1973. So the
>>military tech would be late 60s/early 70s rather than my earlier
>>estimate.
>
>There's no question this minister would have been aware of Lindsay but
>he was not the sort who would be an enthusiast for Lindsay's type of
>fantasies.
>
>>There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
>>(no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
>>themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
>>theirs than God's.
>
>Yup - I read a lot of that kind of material in my late teens. In
>between the Foundation series and the various Dune books...
>
>>>>>>These are books I inherited from my maternal grandfather. I don't know
>>>>>>if I have it, but one of those I skimmed earlier claimed that the
>>>>>>world would be ending very soon because "the war" was the big one
>>>>>>described in Revelation. The war referred to was -- the Balkan Wars of
>>>>>>1912-1913.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm surprised they published the book -- given the normal lag time,
>>>>>>WWI must have been going on by then and it would have been /much/ more
>>>>>>convincing.
>>>>>
>>>>>I defy ANY theologian to say definitively what a particular prophecy
>>>>>of the future is supposed to be about. Obviously past ones can be
>>>>>judged as fulfilled or not (for instance saying in 400 BC that the
>>>>>temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt) but all we can say is 'not yet'.
>>>>
>>>>Restricted to /sane/ theologians, that makes sense. But nutters are
>>>>everywhere.
>>>
>>>Obviously and you correctly soused out what I meant.
>>
>>These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
>>prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
>>per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
>>knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
>>figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
>
>There are all kinds of evangelists making hay of all kinds of passages
>and the above minister I mentioned said several times that a mature
>faith was based on all of it not just one or two favorite passages. As
>I say a wise man and gone too soon.

And many people, including some very famous DWEMs, agree today and
agreed when they were alive with that position. "The Bible interprets
itself" is another aspect of it: to understand one part, you must
consider the other parts.

Indeed, I once read that the reason Lutherans are amillenials (in the
sense of not caring about it one way or the other, BTW) is because
Luther didn't feel that a few isolated passages were a reliable
foundation for an elaborate theoretical speculation. He didn't much
like speculation anyway.

>>>>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>>>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>>>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>>>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>>>>prophet had written.
>>>>
>>>>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>>>>happened.
>
>1918 wasn't it? Something like that - the return that never was that
>is.

I suspect that this is what I am thinking about, in which case it
would have been in 1844:
<https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1801-1900/miller-wrongly-set-date-for-christs-return-11630471.html?msclkid=3a064287d14211ec8c0f3e6a5e226c84>.
The result:
"Humiliated by what has been called "The Great Disappointment," some
Millerites shucked their faith completely. Led by Miller, others
formed the Adventists. The majority returned to more traditional
churches."
but there may have been later incidents. Including, for all I know,
1918.

>>>>Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
>>>>something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.
>>>
>>>While I'm very definitely familiar with some of the nutty theories you
>>>mention (and am familiar with the origins of the Adventists and JWs)
>>>my grandfather was very definitely not one of those but actually
>>>fairly mainstream within Evangelical circles.
>>
>>That's fine. This book, and others like them, were inherited from my
>>maternal Grandfather, a Lutheran pastor. Which is about as far from
>>Lindsey as you can get. But he had an interest in Revelation.
>
>Hal Lindsay was very definitely not the first of those who went
>overboard on Daniel, The Revelation and all the other apocalyptic
>passages you cite.

He in fact cites this as support for his ... handwavium. (It's not
/all/ handwavium, but a lot of it is.)

>>>>>But in your case, obviously WW1 was a far bigger war than any of the
>>>>>Balkan Wars and I'm pretty sure even a Serb or Bulgarian would agree.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, I was surprised when I looked "Balkan Wars" up to find they
>>>>were that late. I thought they were around 1905 or so. But perhaps
>>>>there were wars in the Balkans then too. Or maybe I'm thinking of
>>>>Tsushima in some muddled fashion.
>>>
>>>If you are thinking Tsushima you are definitely muddled. Tell me if
>>>you think this is anywhere near the Balkans:
>>>https://www.google.com/maps/search/tsushima+battle+site/@34.744744,130.7768084,8z/data=!3m1!4b1
>>
>>Well, of course it isn't. That was why I said "muddled".
>
>Well Tsushima was during the Russo-Japanese war. Russia was not
>involved in any of the Balkan wars though was said to be supporting
>whichever Balkan state was at that time most anti-Austria. In August
>1914 of course that was Serbia. Bulgaria later joined the Central
>Powers in attacking first Serbia then Rumania.

It's been so long since I read that that I really can't be sure about
the date. Definitely Balkan Wars, though. Their very (how should I say
this?) lack of importance struck me as making them an odd stand-in for
Armageddon. Or even a precursor.

>>>>Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
>>>>considered on topic here.
>>>
>>>Heh heh - too true.
>>>
>>>Though if you want religious SF check out some of Orson Scott Card's
>>>Alvin Maker stories. Although it's not specifically an LDS series
>>>there are a lot of early LDS elements in the stories about a very
>>>alternate America.
>>
>>I've read most of them, but only kept the first two.
>
>>Not because of the Mormonism -- it just got more and more drawn out
>>for no good reason that I could see.
>
>I read the third as well and by that time found it was more fantasy
>than SF and since at that point I hadn't really gotten beyond Tolkien
>I wasn't interested. Besides by the 3rd Alvin Maker I was convinced
>Card was getting paid by the word.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 11 May 2022 18:20 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:07:36 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 00:43:08 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 08:56:00 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:19 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:38:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 08 May 2022 09:04:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 06 May 2022 08:27:14 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>There's no question this minister would have been aware of Lindsay but
>>he was not the sort who would be an enthusiast for Lindsay's type of
>>fantasies.
>>
>>>There are entire denominations involved in this sort of thing, plus
>>>(no doubt) independent churches. And they don't all agree among
>>>themselves. Which suggests that their interpretations may be more
>>>theirs than God's.
>>
>>Yup - I read a lot of that kind of material in my late teens. In
>>between the Foundation series and the various Dune books...

Interpretation of biblical prophecies isn't just a hobby of loonie
fundamentalists but no question they're the ones who most pursued it.

The minister I mentioned above was more about building churches than
interpreting biblical fine points. His father had been a well
respected missionary in his day.

The day of my grandmother's funeral I was in a state of shock since
while I knew he had died, didn't expect to find his grave less than
30' from my grandparents. (Nothing more than walking away back to my
car and paying attention to the grave markers along the way to see
when they had been buried then staggered to find his name)

>>There are all kinds of evangelists making hay of all kinds of passages
>>and the above minister I mentioned said several times that a mature
>>faith was based on all of it not just one or two favorite passages. As
>>I say a wise man and gone too soon.
>
>And many people, including some very famous DWEMs, agree today and
>agreed when they were alive with that position. "The Bible interprets
>itself" is another aspect of it: to understand one part, you must
>consider the other parts.
>
>Indeed, I once read that the reason Lutherans are amillenials (in the
>sense of not caring about it one way or the other, BTW) is because
>Luther didn't feel that a few isolated passages were a reliable
>foundation for an elaborate theoretical speculation. He didn't much
>like speculation anyway.

I'm guessing "DWEM" means 'dead white evangelical ministers' or
something related. There are of course all sorts of rabbit holes in
the New Testament one can go down if you are determined to emphasize
one passage at the expense of all others. That's how a lot of cults
were created.

>>>>>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>>>>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>>>>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>>>>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>>>>>prophet had written.
>>>>>
>>>>>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>>>>>happened.
>>
>>1918 wasn't it? Something like that - the return that never was that
>>is.

Might have been the Witnesses - there was quite a strong bond between
their founders and the Adventists in the 19th century their present
day followers are not wont to talk about today.

>I suspect that this is what I am thinking about, in which case it
>would have been in 1844:
><https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1801-1900/miller-wrongly-set-date-for-christs-return-11630471.html?msclkid=3a064287d14211ec8c0f3e6a5e226c84>.
>The result:
>"Humiliated by what has been called "The Great Disappointment," some
>Millerites shucked their faith completely. Led by Miller, others
>formed the Adventists. The majority returned to more traditional
>churches."
>but there may have been later incidents. Including, for all I know,
>1918.

Looks like I got my date wrong: 1914 not 1918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

>>>>>Rather than return to reality, some groups adopted the assertion that
>>>>>something had happened in Heaven that we (conveniently) could not see.
>>>>
>>>>While I'm very definitely familiar with some of the nutty theories you
>>>>mention (and am familiar with the origins of the Adventists and JWs)
>>>>my grandfather was very definitely not one of those but actually
>>>>fairly mainstream within Evangelical circles.
>>>
>>>That's fine. This book, and others like them, were inherited from my
>>>maternal Grandfather, a Lutheran pastor. Which is about as far from
>>>Lindsey as you can get. But he had an interest in Revelation.
>>
>>Hal Lindsay was very definitely not the first of those who went
>>overboard on Daniel, The Revelation and all the other apocalyptic
>>passages you cite.
>
>He in fact cites this as support for his ... handwavium. (It's not
>/all/ handwavium, but a lot of it is.)
>
>>>>>Some of this stuff is so fantastical that it could actually be
>>>>>considered on topic here.
>>>>
>>>>Heh heh - too true.

I'm definitely not one of those but no question taking Holy Communion
at Westminster Abbey in 2016 was one of my more notable spiritual
experiences.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:37 UTC

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 16:44:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 03:36:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 01:45:38 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> > These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
> >> > prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
> >> > per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
> >> > knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
> >> > figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
> >>
> >> I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
> >> and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."
> >
> >So what was the date to be? Just so we can be prepared?
> Sadly, it's a moveable feast.
>
> But it's always in the future.

Most of these are in the past.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events>

Most of the really sciency ones there are in the future.
Y2K, the problem of computer dates in 2000, was
preventable, and was prevented.

> And they always have an excuse when the date is reached and ...
> nothing happens.
>
> This is, of course, embarassing to those involved. But, somehow, they
> either pick themselves up and start all over again or somebody new
> pops up with a new date.
> --
> "I begin to envy Petronius."
> "I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 06:03 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:36:12 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 01:45:38 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> > > These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
> > > prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
> > > per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
> > > knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
> > > figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
> >
> > I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
> > and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."
> So what was the date to be? Just so we can be prepared?

It passed a few months ago.

Pt

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 06:07 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 8:44:00 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 03:36:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 01:45:38 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:56:06 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> > These guys make a career of trying to squeeze the present day into
> >> > prophecy -- by which they mostly mean "apocalyptic", not "prophecy"
> >> > per se -- and yet we have on Very Good Authority that only the Father
> >> > knows the time. So, basically, they are trying to prove God wrong by
> >> > figuring it out. This puts they way out on a very small limb.
> >>
> >> I once asked one of these loons about that. His response was "Yes, the day
> >> and hour are known only to God, but the year, month, and week can be worked out."
> >
> >So what was the date to be? Just so we can be prepared?
> Sadly, it's a moveable feast.
>
> But it's always in the future.
>
> And they always have an excuse when the date is reached and ...
> nothing happens.
>
> This is, of course, embarassing to those involved. But, somehow, they
> either pick themselves up and start all over again or somebody new
> pops up with a new date.

The classic study of the issue is "When prophecy fails".
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

Pt

Re: Isaiah 9:6

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 08:55:56 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:55 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:20:33 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:07:36 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

<snippo above & below>

>>And many people, including some very famous DWEMs, agree today and
>>agreed when they were alive with that position. "The Bible interprets
>>itself" is another aspect of it: to understand one part, you must
>>consider the other parts.
>>
>>Indeed, I once read that the reason Lutherans are amillenials (in the
>>sense of not caring about it one way or the other, BTW) is because
>>Luther didn't feel that a few isolated passages were a reliable
>>foundation for an elaborate theoretical speculation. He didn't much
>>like speculation anyway.
>
>I'm guessing "DWEM" means 'dead white evangelical ministers' or
>something related. There are of course all sorts of rabbit holes in
>the New Testament one can go down if you are determined to emphasize
>one passage at the expense of all others. That's how a lot of cults
>were created.

No, no, the usual meaning -- "Dead White European Males" -- was
intended. No need to limit it by denomination.

>>>>>>>My late grandfather was convinced he would see the literal return of
>>>>>>>Jesus Christ in his lifetime (he died 1992) but didn't believe the
>>>>>>>Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventist view that the Second
>>>>>>>Coming had already happened spirtiually or invisibly was what the
>>>>>>>prophet had written.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That was because the firmly predicted Big Day arrived and ... nothing
>>>>>>happened.
>>>
>>>1918 wasn't it? Something like that - the return that never was that
>>>is.
>
>Might have been the Witnesses - there was quite a strong bond between
>their founders and the Adventists in the 19th century their present
>day followers are not wont to talk about today.
>
>>I suspect that this is what I am thinking about, in which case it
>>would have been in 1844:
>><https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1801-1900/miller-wrongly-set-date-for-christs-return-11630471.html?msclkid=3a064287d14211ec8c0f3e6a5e226c84>.
>>The result:
>>"Humiliated by what has been called "The Great Disappointment," some
>>Millerites shucked their faith completely. Led by Miller, others
>>formed the Adventists. The majority returned to more traditional
>>churches."
>>but there may have been later incidents. Including, for all I know,
>>1918.
>
>Looks like I got my date wrong: 1914 not 1918
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

OK, 1914. The article was interesting (OK, the introduction was).

One of the books I read was /The Small Sects in America/. I didn't
keep it because, being from the 1930s, it is woefully out-of-date as a
field guide (so to speak).

But it makes an interesting point: a lot of these groups start with
poor people, and so ban things that cost money, such as dance halls,
booze, and movies. As time pases and their economic situation improves
(they are sober and dedicated, of course it will improve, barring a
Great Depression or two), these strictures are relaxed.

The article (well, the introduction) appears to suggest that this
group, also, has done some relaxing.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t5jora$rus$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:57:26 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 12 May 2022 19:57 UTC

On 5/10/2022 11:10 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 6:53:11 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/6/2022 10:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 21:57:40 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:06:31 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 01:24:15 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>>> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>>>>>>>> please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>>>>>>>> now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>>>>>>>> dead on Tuesday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>>>>>>> about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>>>>>>> _can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
>>>>>> gets reversed again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
>>>>>> requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
>>>>>> impatient to build.
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't have the votes now, and aren't likely to have them after
>>>>> next November, no matter what happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> For one thing, they would need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.
>>>>
>>>> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
>>>> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
>>>> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus. And
>>>> that will only happen if the effort is focused on that one goal, not
>>>> diluting it with a bunch of other divisive issues.
>>>>
>>>> But you can't wait for that, it has to be right now, right this
>>>> minute, and steamroll anybody or anything that stands in your way.
>>>
>>> Oh, /I/ can wait for that. Bernie and friends may not be able to, but
>>> they aren't the ones that are going to solve the problem.
>>>
>>> And, much as I wish it weren't so, the Dems chronic inability to
>>> campaign effectively will make it take a lot longer.
>>>
>>> If Roe falls, and a Constitutional Amendment is not practical, then I
>>> would expect to see a slow withdrawal of major corporations and
>>> venture capital from those States, shrinking their economies. Also a
>>> pattern of emigration to saner States, reducing their influence in the
>>> House.
>> Oh my goodness, please. We are really getting tired of immigrants to
>> Texas, legal or illegal.
>
> So, anyone not a full blood Native American should go home?
>
> Pt

Sorry dude, I am a sixth generation Texan. We've been here quite a
while, since before the Civil War.

However, my wife is 3/8ths Cherokee. One of her grandfathers is listed
in the Dawes list. I had to arm wrestle him after I married her. Yes,
an 82 year old man beat me at arm wrestling when I was 22 (and I could
bench press 330 lbs back then). But, he was a professional wrestler
back in the 1920s.

Lynn

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t6lsq6$119h$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
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Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 12:33:42 -0600
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 by: David Johnston - Wed, 25 May 2022 18:33 UTC

On 2022-05-04 11:24 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>>> If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>>> please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>>> now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>>> dead on Tuesday?
>>
>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>
>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>> about it.
>>
>> I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>
>> But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>
>> Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>> _can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>
> And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
> gets reversed again.
>
> The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
> requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
> impatient to build.

The American Constitution will never be amended again. It is what it
will be until the republic falls.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t6lt3j$13ck$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=74327&group=rec.arts.sf.written#74327

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 12:38:42 -0600
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: David Johnston - Wed, 25 May 2022 18:38 UTC

On 2022-05-05 7:57 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2022 09:06:31 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 May 2022 01:24:15 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:59:00 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/4/2022 2:18 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> If we are discussing this coming court decision,
>>>>>> please satisfy my curiosity: what would be the position
>>>>>> now, Wednesday, if half of the justices had been shot
>>>>>> dead on Tuesday?
>>>>
>>>>> John Grisham wrote a book about that. The outcome was not good.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll give you a hint, "The Pelican Brief". You can even watch a movie
>>>>> about it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that anything like that is likely to happen.
>>>>
>>>> But two people hold the power to ensure it won't happen.
>>>>
>>>> Manchin and Sinema. They just have to get out of the way, so that Biden
>>>> _can_ enlarge the Supreme Court.
>>>
>>> And then at the next election it gets enlarged again and the ruling
>>> gets reversed again.
>>>
>>> The right way to do this is to amend the Constitution, but that
>>> requires a consensus that Democrats are too incompetent and lazy and
>>> impatient to build.
>>
>> They don't have the votes now, and aren't likely to have them after
>> next November, no matter what happens.
>>
>> For one thing, they would need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.
>
> And that is exactly the problem. "We want our rights and we don't
> care _how_, we want our rev-o-lu-tion NOW!". It will take a very logn
> time, decades, of concerted effort to establish that consensus.

Oh bullshit. It's just impossible. One party is not going to cooperate
with another to give that party a policy win.

Re: Isaiah 9:6

<t6m0b0$dl9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Isaiah 9:6
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 13:33:51 -0600
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: David Johnston - Wed, 25 May 2022 19:33 UTC

On 2022-05-06 2:39 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:21:30 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> You still have not shown evidence of this supposed "lie". Please
>>> state the words that constitute said "lie" and the time and location
>>> at which they were uttered.
>>
>> Location: the floor of the United States Senate.
>>
>> The words? You can listen to them here:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJCGAA4VYT8
>>
>> skip ahead to 4:40 or so
>>
>> November 11, 2006
>> _Roe vs. Wade_ is an important precedent of the Supreme Court
>> -Samuel Alito
>
> And at that time it was. So where is the lie?
>
>> October 13, 2020
>> _Roe vs. Wade_ clearly held that the Constitution protected a woman's
>> right to terminate her pregnancy
>> -Amy Coney Barrett
>
> Roe vs. Wade certainly held that. Where is the lie?
>>
>> March 22, 2017
>> The Supreme Court of the United States has clearly held in _Roe vs. Wade_
>> that a fetus is not a person for the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment.
>> That's the law of the land. I accept the law of the land.
>> -Neil Gorsuch
>
> The Supreme Court certainly held that. And at the time it _was_ the
> law of the land. Where is the lie?

In saying he accepted it.

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