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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

SubjectAuthor
* A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
|+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
||`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
|| `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
||  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJames Nicoll
||  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDorothy J Heydt
||  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
||  +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
||  |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionKevrob
||  | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionScott Lurndal
||  | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionKevrob
||  | | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionScott Lurndal
||  | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDan Swartzendruber
||  |  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
||  |  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionKevrob
||  |  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJay E. Morris
||  |  `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Carnegie
||  |   `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
||  |    `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionAlan
||  |     `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decisionpete...@gmail.com
||  `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionBice
||   `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Woodward
|+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
|`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionMagewolf
| +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDavid Johnston
| | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDavid Johnston
| | | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJoy Beeson
| `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDavid Johnston
+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Carnegie
|+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionKevrob
|`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| |+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| ||`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| |+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | |+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | ||+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | |||`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionMagewolf
| | ||| +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | ||| `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | |||  +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionMagewolf
| | |||  `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | ||`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Carnegie
| | | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| | | |+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionAlan
| | | ||`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| | | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | | | |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |  `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| | | | |   +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |   `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |    +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |    +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| | | | |    |`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |    `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| | | | |     +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |     |+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |     |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | | |     | +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |     | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |     | |`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | | | |     | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionLynn McGuire
| | | | |     |  `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | | |     `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |      `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| | | | |       +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionNinapenda Jibini
| | | | |       `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |        `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |         +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | | | |         |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |         | +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | | | |         | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |         `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | | |          +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |          |+* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionQuadibloc
| | | | |          ||`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | |          |+- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | | |          |`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |          | `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Carnegie
| | | | |          +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
| | | | |          `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |           `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | | |            `- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | +* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionJ. Clarke
| | | | |`- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionPaul S Person
| | | | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
| | | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRoss Presser
| | `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionKevrob
| +- Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionRobert Carnegie
| `* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionThe Horny Goat
`* Re: A Poor Supreme Court DecisionDavid Johnston

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Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
> of the mother".

That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
post about when personhood begins.

> These laws are very old and very traditional.

Old and trraditional laws reflect _how people thought_. That isn't
really informative here. The question is: when does personhood _in
fact_ begin.

In the same sense that: black people are fully equal human beings;
this is a fact; regardless of how old and traditional slavery might have
been, and how many misguided people might have thought them
inferior.

Science now tells us this:

Humans reproduce through exposing an egg cell to sperm; this leads
to conception, forming a new organism. Once the genetic material
of the sperm has united with that of the egg cell, forming a diploid
eucaryotic cell, which takes place at the moment of syngamy, this
new single-celled human being grows and develops into a human adult
over time.

During his or her lifetime, this new human organism will normally
enter into some relationships with his or her mother to promote
survival; first, through implantation, the pregnancy relationship, and
then, after leaving that relationship through birth, he or she may
enter a breastfeeding relationship with his or her mother, from which
he or she will depart at weaning.

This is what science tells us about human reproduction. Birth is the
ending of a relationship between two organisms; it is not the coming
into existence of an organism, as it was mistakenly percieved in the
past by primitive people ignorant of science.

We start from the rock-solid foundation of the truth about nature, as
observed by science, not the shifting sands of popular opinion, myth,
legend, tradition - or even politics and law. Reality comes first.

But there _is_ the problem of facts versus values. A human embryo
might be a living organism. So is a housefly. So we _do_ have to
consult human cultural thinking about ethics. But we have to do it in
a very cautious manner.

That is: instead of looking for _explicit_ rules from human ethical
thinking, we have to stand back, and work out the _underlying principles_
behind human ethical thinking. In that way, we can learn that fairness
is an underlying principle, and avoid being misled by explicit laws that
denied equality to black people in some societies.

This process leads us to the following conclusions:

- Killing rational beings is wrong;

- Killing humans is wrong because humans are the only known example
of rational beings;

- Killing a human is wrong even when that human has not matured
enough to exhibit rationality.

That's it, then. Using a reality-based approach to ground ourselves
in what goes on when humans reproduced, followed by a careful
study of human ethics that filters out the kind of errors of prejudice
and inequality human societies have historically shown themselves
prone to, we appear to solidly establish the conclusion that abortion
is murder.

But while that is a _strong presumption_, to really justify that
conclusion, we have to examine some potential weak spots.

1) It is true that infanticide is prohibited in most human societies.
However, is it prohibited because we _really_ believe that little
babies are full persons, or do we just prohibit it because, for example,
a woman might be blackmailed through threatening the life of her
baby - to which she has an emotional attachment which may not be
justified by what it really is?

Many countries have laws that prescribe a ligher penalty for infanticide
if it's commited by the baby's mother, which may be evidence for this.

2) Pregnancy requires participation by the child's mother.

So a prohibition on abortion doesn't just prohibit an act of killing an
embryo, it also is a demand on service by the mother.

We don't compel people to donate blood, or transplant organs.

And so on, and so forth. *This* is how we have to reason about
abortion to put ourselves on a sound basis.

John Savard

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Tue, 10 May 2022 19:25 UTC

On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 17:08:03 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:18:09 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 1:10:48 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> While I am of the opinion that human life begins at syngamy, and
> >> should be given legal protection from about the seventh week of
> >> pregnancy (when brain circuits have started forming), .....
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/syngamy
> >
> >Ever since this issue broke into the public consciousness in my teens -
> >the Sisters at my high school used to arrange bus trips to Albany so
> >that the girls could join protests against repealing anti-abortion laws
> >before Roe came down - I've pooh-poohed "life begins at conception"
> >or at implantation or quickening or whatever. The real question is "when
> >does personhood begin?" I'm not going to use this space to lay down
> >some red line, as I don't have that expertise. I suspect a time T when
> >normal development yields a sufficiently complex brain might figure
> >into such a determination. Good luck finding a consensus on that
> >in the USA.
> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
> of the mother". Note that "encouraging" the child to do so by slapping
> it on its behind (more recently, poking it in the foot) has always
> been allowed -- nay, expected if the child not start on its own.
>
> Unless something has changed, in order to have a dependent, you must
> have a birth certificate. Each State decides when to issue a birth
> certificate -- and most if not all require the child to draw breath
> independently of the mother. IOW, stillbirths and miscarriages do
> /not/ (in most if not all States) get birth certificates.
>
> These laws are very old and very traditional. They are (I suspect)
> backed up by Christian theology (until, perhaps, recently, when
> adopting the modernistic viewpoint has come into style by
> anti-abortion types).
>
> This is actually the basis for the common saying "Don't count your
> chickens until they are hatched". They don't all hatch, and only those
> that do so and live are chickens.

It applies to chickens, and to well laid plans
as well as eggs. Humans, including several in
my family, are extremely unhappy when they
intend to have a baby and they don't. That is
not a time to mention chickens.

I didn't ask if this lyric was upsetting, but it
may have been. In the Victorian comic operetta
_Iolanthe_, the guard at the British Parliament
gets a song about partisan political division.
(ObSF: The story also involves fairies.)

"I often think it's comical – Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive – Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That’s born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!"

I've just noticed that the song allows women to
be interested even if not involved in politics, which
is nice. For that matter, the fairies on show
are female, and are discontented with the terrible
punishment of Iolanthe by their Queen. It's Greek
tragic. However, the Queen is not free to disregard
ancient legislation. It's the lore.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 10 May 2022 22:27 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>> of the mother".
>
>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>post about when personhood begins.
>
>> These laws are very old and very traditional.
>
>Old and trraditional laws reflect _how people thought_. That isn't
>really informative here. The question is: when does personhood _in
>fact_ begin.

Define "personhood". Talking about when it begins is meaningless if
you don't know what it is.

<Wall of text trimmed>

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<XnsAE93A4B0FB78taustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Tue, 10 May 2022 23:11 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
> wrote:
>
>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>> independently of the mother".
>
> That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
> to a post about when personhood begins.
>
>> These laws are very old and very traditional.
>
> Old and trraditional laws reflect _how people thought_. That
> isn't really informative here. The question is: when does
> personhood _in fact_ begin.
>
Well, there's your error (we all knew there would be one, and that it
would be early in your drivel).

That you use the term "in fact" implies that you believe there is
some objective definition, or at least that an objective definition
is *possible*.

You are mistaken.

As usual.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com> <njpl7hpgitcsm8bdj1nc00fsfc4emdufo2@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Tue, 10 May 2022 23:12 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:njpl7hpgitcsm8bdj1nc00fsfc4emdufo2@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>wrote:
>>
>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>> independently of the mother".
>>
>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
>>to a post about when personhood begins.
>>
>>> These laws are very old and very traditional.
>>
>>Old and trraditional laws reflect _how people thought_. That
>>isn't really informative here. The question is: when does
>>personhood _in fact_ begin.
>
> Define "personhood". Talking about when it begins is
> meaningless if you don't know what it is.
>
> <Wall of text trimmed>
>
He's a lefty. It means "People who agree with my insanity. Everyone
can be killed at will."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<l3om7hlpkkkdnuv32ub08ue25mb5upgr6b@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 11 May 2022 07:09 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:07:57 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>of the mother". Note that "encouraging" the child to do so by slapping
>it on its behind (more recently, poking it in the foot) has always
>been allowed -- nay, expected if the child not start on its own.

So if the poor tyke has to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks on an
inhalator they're not born yet?

My late wife would have celebrated her birthday a month later than she
did if that had been the case way back when.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<g7on7h1o8pe8ahbs2fs5iv6ofgfta9gv29@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73270&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73270

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 09:17:16 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:17 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 00:09:29 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:07:57 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>>of the mother". Note that "encouraging" the child to do so by slapping
>>it on its behind (more recently, poking it in the foot) has always
>>been allowed -- nay, expected if the child not start on its own.
>
>So if the poor tyke has to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks on an
>inhalator they're not born yet?

If the inhalator works, then they were not stillborn or a miscarriage,
and so were born live.

>My late wife would have celebrated her birthday a month later than she
>did if that had been the case way back when.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:21 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>> of the mother".
>
>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>post about when personhood begins.

It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
providing assistance is allowed.

Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<f9pn7hdhuhpncuj5jiobb74i3jvqrv8akq@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:37 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>>> of the mother".
>>
>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>>post about when personhood begins.
>
>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>providing assistance is allowed.
>
>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.

No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.

As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.

(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
grounding)

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com>

 copy mid

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:23 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>>>> of the mother".
>>>
>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>>>post about when personhood begins.
>>
>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>>providing assistance is allowed.
>>
>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>>criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.
>
>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>
>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
>that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>
>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
>enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
>faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
>ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
>teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>grounding)

Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to ignore
2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration of scripture
and make it up as they go.

I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle math
that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same college) who
thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't say because we were
"damning God", to take one example.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<XnsAE946B9B697A3taustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com> <lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:34 UTC

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>wrote:
>>
>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>> independently of the mother".
>>
>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
>>to a post about when personhood begins.
>
> It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
> Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
> mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>
> Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
> this is a criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity
> or even Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still
> be.

Except every major religion has a slightly different view on the
matter.

And none of them have offer the slightest shred of proof that they're
right and everyone else is wrong, of course.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<XnsAE946C254FC99taustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com> <lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com> <f9pn7hdhuhpncuj5jiobb74i3jvqrv8akq@4ax.com> <01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:37 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat
> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>
>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were
>>>>replying to a post about when personhood begins.
>>>
>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
>>>Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
>>>mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>>>
>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
>>>this is a criterion based on religion. And not just
>>>Christianity or even Judaism. It was probably pretty universal,
>>>and may still be.
>>
>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>>
>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity
>>is that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>
>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
>>enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way
>>the faith describes but that's another story though the fact of
>>mankind's ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly
>>most religions teach society which includes society's laws can
>>be based on a logical grounding)
>
> Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to
> ignore 2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration
> of scripture and make it up as they go.

Based on a translation of a transalation of a translation (at
least), all of which introducted errors, and all subject to
deliberate editorial changes by the translators. But the one (and
only) version they don't bother to read is the Unchanging Eternal
Word Of God.
>
> I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle
> math that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same
> college) who thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't
> say because we were "damning God", to take one example.
>
That's not even linguistiablly defensible.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<t5h5am$bmr$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73304&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73304

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From: Magew...@nc.rr.com (Magewolf)
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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 20:12:07 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Magewolf - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:12 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:37:52 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>>
>>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>>>>>post about when personhood begins.
>>>>
>>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>>>>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>>>>providing assistance is allowed.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>>>>criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>>>>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal,
>>>>and may still be.
>>>
>>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>>>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>>>
>>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is that
>>>we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>>
>>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse enough
>>>to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the faith
>>>describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's ability
>>>to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions teach
>>>society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>>>grounding)
>>
>> Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to ignore
>> 2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration of scripture
>> and make it up as they go.
>
> Based on a translation of a transalation of a translation (at least),
> all of which introducted errors, and all subject to deliberate editorial
> changes by the translators. But the one (and only) version they don't
> bother to read is the Unchanging Eternal Word Of God.
>>
>> I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle math
>> that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same college) who
>> thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't say because we were
>> "damning God", to take one example.
>>
> That's not even linguistiablly defensible.

I believe the usual reasoning around here is that it is taking the Lord's
name in vain or if not that you should not be praying for damnation in
general.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<XnsAE948A2BBEF53taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73306&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73306

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com> <lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com> <f9pn7hdhuhpncuj5jiobb74i3jvqrv8akq@4ax.com> <01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com> <XnsAE946C254FC99taustingmail@85.12.62.232> <t5h5am$bmr$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:34 UTC

Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> wrote in
news:t5h5am$bmr$1@dont-email.me:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:37:52 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat
>>> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were
>>>>>>replying to a post about when personhood begins.
>>>>>
>>>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
>>>>>Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
>>>>>mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
>>>>>this is a criterion based on religion. And not just
>>>>>Christianity or even Judaism. It was probably pretty
>>>>>universal, and may still be.
>>>>
>>>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes
>>>>from Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe
>>>>that.
>>>>
>>>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of
>>>>Christianity is that we were given intellect and the ability
>>>>to reason.
>>>>
>>>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently
>>>>perverse enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is
>>>>required the way the faith describes but that's another story
>>>>though the fact of mankind's ability to reason is understood
>>>>as a given. Certainly most religions teach society which
>>>>includes society's laws can be based on a logical grounding)
>>>
>>> Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to
>>> ignore 2000 years of theological and philosophical
>>> consideration of scripture and make it up as they go.
>>
>> Based on a translation of a transalation of a translation (at
>> least), all of which introducted errors, and all subject to
>> deliberate editorial changes by the translators. But the one
>> (and only) version they don't bother to read is the Unchanging
>> Eternal Word Of God.
>>>
>>> I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could
>>> handle math that was opaque to me and had graduated from the
>>> same college) who thought that "God damn" was something we
>>> shouldn't say because we were "damning God", to take one
>>> example.
>>>
>> That's not even linguistiablly defensible.
>
> I believe the usual reasoning around here is that it is taking
> the Lord's name in vain or if not that you should not be praying
> for damnation in general.
>
That is both linguistically and theologically supportable.

But it's not what Clarke was talking about.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<78ao7hp3h6p4305iv3oe0uiepih7jri464@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73308&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73308

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Message-ID: <78ao7hp3h6p4305iv3oe0uiepih7jri464@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 11 May 2022 21:22 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 20:12:07 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
<Magewolf@nc.rr.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:37:52 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>>>>>>post about when personhood begins.
>>>>>
>>>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>>>>>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>>>>>providing assistance is allowed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>>>>>criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>>>>>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal,
>>>>>and may still be.
>>>>
>>>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>>>>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>>>>
>>>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is that
>>>>we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>>>
>>>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse enough
>>>>to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the faith
>>>>describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's ability
>>>>to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions teach
>>>>society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>>>>grounding)
>>>
>>> Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to ignore
>>> 2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration of scripture
>>> and make it up as they go.
>>
>> Based on a translation of a transalation of a translation (at least),
>> all of which introducted errors, and all subject to deliberate editorial
>> changes by the translators. But the one (and only) version they don't
>> bother to read is the Unchanging Eternal Word Of God.
>>>
>>> I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle math
>>> that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same college) who
>>> thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't say because we were
>>> "damning God", to take one example.
>>>
>> That's not even linguistiablly defensible.
>
>I believe the usual reasoning around here is that it is taking the Lord's
>name in vain or if not that you should not be praying for damnation in
>general.

Both of which are much more defensible, but that's not what his
"pastor" told him.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<t5hbvj$p8h$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73314&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73314

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From: Magew...@nc.rr.com (Magewolf)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 22:05:39 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Magewolf - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:05 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 17:22:47 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 20:12:07 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:37:52 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to
>>>>>>>a post about when personhood begins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>>>>>>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>>>>>>providing assistance is allowed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is
>>>>>>a criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>>>>>>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal,
>>>>>>and may still be.
>>>>>
>>>>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>>>>>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>>>>>
>>>>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
>>>>>that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
>>>>>enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
>>>>>faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
>>>>>ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
>>>>>teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>>>>>grounding)
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to ignore
>>>> 2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration of
>>>> scripture and make it up as they go.
>>>
>>> Based on a translation of a transalation of a translation (at least),
>>> all of which introducted errors, and all subject to deliberate
>>> editorial changes by the translators. But the one (and only) version
>>> they don't bother to read is the Unchanging Eternal Word Of God.
>>>>
>>>> I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle math
>>>> that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same college) who
>>>> thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't say because we
>>>> were "damning God", to take one example.
>>>>
>>> That's not even linguistiablly defensible.
>>
>>I believe the usual reasoning around here is that it is taking the
>>Lord's name in vain or if not that you should not be praying for
>>damnation in general.
>
> Both of which are much more defensible, but that's not what his "pastor"
> told him.

I was not disagreeing with that being a very "unique" reason for opposing
God damn just commenting that it does not seem common even here in the
bible belt.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<akeo7h1thf3sdnqk57b6ntt2cva0v63rdj@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73317&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73317

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Message-ID: <akeo7h1thf3sdnqk57b6ntt2cva0v63rdj@4ax.com>
References: <e4e8173c-5d40-48e8-b88c-b8fc534e7cfcn@googlegroups.com> <7ce57046-ad10-4899-bf70-c6afb2d55a1an@googlegroups.com> <h23l7hl7de851bq7taoc3prbp9ijfk6cse@4ax.com> <6b1ba310-961a-41cc-a57e-ad9f2a69fad8n@googlegroups.com> <lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com> <f9pn7hdhuhpncuj5jiobb74i3jvqrv8akq@4ax.com> <01sn7hlput88i0ok6jnru00la9ufr2pvro@4ax.com>
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:42 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 13:23:36 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:37:24 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>>>>> of the mother".
>>>>
>>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>>>>post about when personhood begins.
>>>
>>>It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>>>Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>>>providing assistance is allowed.
>>>
>>>Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>>>criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>>>Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.
>>
>>No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>>Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>>
>>As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
>>that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>
>>(Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
>>enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
>>faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
>>ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
>>teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>>grounding)
>
>Unfortunately modern American "fundamentalists" have chosen to ignore
>2000 years of theological and philosophical consideration of scripture
>and make it up as they go.
>
>I remember one (not a stupid or ignorant person--he could handle math
>that was opaque to me and had graduated from the same college) who
>thought that "God damn" was something we shouldn't say because we were
>"damning God", to take one example.

That's hardly a unique foible of fundamentalists - plenty of
non-fundies come up with reasons it's a godly act to do whatever
"worthy" cause they favor - even abortion in one case I've heard.

As for "god damn' that's backwards - the oath is calling on God to
condemn someone for doing whatever the oath maker doesn't like. Which
is in itself a sin snce that's not 'your' prerogative. ('damn Putin'
for instance)

I've heard people say "bless them Lord" and known full well they were
being sarcastic.

Best to let your yeas be yea and your nays be nay and leave the
Almighty out of your speech altogether. <grin>

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<0767b7a1-c515-4822-865a-dd2838a340f2n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Wed, 11 May 2022 23:06 UTC

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 17:37:30 UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> ><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>
> >>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
> >>> of the mother".
> >>
> >>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
> >>post about when personhood begins.
> >
> >It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
> >Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
> >providing assistance is allowed.
> >
> >Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
> >criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
> >Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.
> No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
> Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.

I don't think that's how it works. Perhaps more reliable is
"Is Abortion Permitted in Judaism?" (yes),
<https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/05/09/abortion-permitted-judaism/>

As you said: "The fetus is not viewed as separate from
the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of
oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body."

The births of Esau and Jacob in Genesis 25,
also whatever is going on by the end of Genesis 38,
and the unborn John the Baptist being excited to meet
the unborn Jesus if I'm correctly remembering that one,
and many women being rather violently assaulted many
times by the contents of their own abdomen, somewhat
point elsewhere.

My view on abortion is that if there aren't legal terminations
then there will be about the same number of illegal ones
and that certainly isn't better.

> As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
> that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>
> (Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
> enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
> faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
> ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
> teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
> grounding)

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<ollo7hlrr3ctqhevqipbict1oseptuamat@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:38 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 16:06:49 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 17:37:30 UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:21:19 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> ><jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath independently
>> >>> of the mother".
>> >>
>> >>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying to a
>> >>post about when personhood begins.
>> >
>> >It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the Breath of
>> >Life, causing it to breath independently of the mother. As noted,
>> >providing assistance is allowed.
>> >
>> >Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent, this is a
>> >criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity or even
>> >Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still be.
>> No apologies needed - and given the passage you quote comes from
>> Genesis you can be reasonably certain that Jews believe that.
>
>I don't think that's how it works. Perhaps more reliable is
>"Is Abortion Permitted in Judaism?" (yes),
><https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/05/09/abortion-permitted-judaism/>
>
>As you said: "The fetus is not viewed as separate from
>the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of
>oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body."
>
>The births of Esau and Jacob in Genesis 25,
>also whatever is going on by the end of Genesis 38,
>and the unborn John the Baptist being excited to meet
>the unborn Jesus if I'm correctly remembering that one,
>and many women being rather violently assaulted many
>times by the contents of their own abdomen, somewhat
>point elsewhere.
>
>My view on abortion is that if there aren't legal terminations
>then there will be about the same number of illegal ones
>and that certainly isn't better.

It's certainly better for the criminals. I wonder how many of our
legislators are in the pocket of organized crime. They certainly seem
bent on creating as much of it as they can get away with.

>> As for religion and the law a fundamental basis of Christianity is
>> that we were given intellect and the ability to reason.
>>
>> (Now Christianity ALSO believes mankind is sufficiently perverse
>> enough to twist any gift and thus redemption is required the way the
>> faith describes but that's another story though the fact of mankind's
>> ability to reason is understood as a given. Certainly most religions
>> teach society which includes society's laws can be based on a logical
>> grounding)

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<4ocq7htaa6pmopea9j0i418rcskih7p10u@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 09:25:59 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 12 May 2022 16:25 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:34:41 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>
>>>That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
>>>to a post about when personhood begins.
>>
>> It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
>> Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
>> mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>>
>> Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
>> this is a criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity
>> or even Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still
>> be.
>
>Except every major religion has a slightly different view on the
>matter.
>
>And none of them have offer the slightest shred of proof that they're
>right and everyone else is wrong, of course.

That's a true observation, but it isn't relevant here if they all (or
mostly) require a live birth before a new human being can be said to
exist.

And, anyway, the /actual/ issue isn't the morality of abortion, it is
whether it should be legal or not. The USA experience with Prohibition
speaks to this because Prohibition also had a strong religious
component, and (had it worked) might have saved many lives, but it
/didn't/ work and was repealed. Just because something is considered
wrong, even by a majority, doesn't mean it should be made illegal.

Well, the more traditional Calvinists still believe that the State
exists to do whatever they tell it to do. One of them said so, IIRC,
while running in a primary. (Another high-quality candidate defined
the family as "one /white/ man, one /white/ woman, and their
children". The true meaning of "traditional family values" as
understood by the Republican Party doesn't get much clearer than
that.) Hey, at least we can /identify/ the moles that need to be
whacked! (politically, of course)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<t5jobd$occ$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:48:58 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 12 May 2022 19:48 UTC

On 5/12/2022 11:25 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:34:41 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>> news:lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>
>>>> That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
>>>> to a post about when personhood begins.
>>>
>>> It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
>>> Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
>>> mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>>>
>>> Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
>>> this is a criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity
>>> or even Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still
>>> be.
>>
>> Except every major religion has a slightly different view on the
>> matter.
>>
>> And none of them have offer the slightest shred of proof that they're
>> right and everyone else is wrong, of course.
>
> That's a true observation, but it isn't relevant here if they all (or
> mostly) require a live birth before a new human being can be said to
> exist.
>
> And, anyway, the /actual/ issue isn't the morality of abortion, it is
> whether it should be legal or not. The USA experience with Prohibition
> speaks to this because Prohibition also had a strong religious
> component, and (had it worked) might have saved many lives, but it
> /didn't/ work and was repealed. Just because something is considered
> wrong, even by a majority, doesn't mean it should be made illegal.
>
> Well, the more traditional Calvinists still believe that the State
> exists to do whatever they tell it to do. One of them said so, IIRC,
> while running in a primary. (Another high-quality candidate defined
> the family as "one /white/ man, one /white/ woman, and their
> children". The true meaning of "traditional family values" as
> understood by the Republican Party doesn't get much clearer than
> that.) Hey, at least we can /identify/ the moles that need to be
> whacked! (politically, of course)

No, the actual issue is that the federal abortion right was granted
based on a non-existent right to privacy in the USA Constitution. There
is no such right even though I think that there should be.

It appears that the right to privacy is being struck down and SCOTUS is
going back to the Tenth Amendment. The Tenth Amendment says that all
rights not explicitly listed here are reserved to the States. So each
State will be able to decide what they want to do about abortion.

Lynn

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

<t5jog1$n54$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:51:29 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 19:51 UTC

On 2022-05-12 12:48 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 11:25 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:34:41 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:lcon7hhlfdfdfn6ujul83kksv0dahfldjk@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The /traditional/ time is "when the child draws breath
>>>>>> independently of the mother".
>>>>>
>>>>> That may be the traditional time of birth, but you were replying
>>>>> to a post about when personhood begins.
>>>>
>>>> It begins when God breathes into the infant's nostrils the
>>>> Breath of Life, causing it to breath independently of the
>>>> mother. As noted, providing assistance is allowed.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to get so religious on you but, as should be apparent,
>>>> this is a criterion based on religion. And not just Christianity
>>>> or even Judaism. It was probably pretty universal, and may still
>>>> be.
>>>
>>> Except every major religion has a slightly different view on the
>>> matter.
>>>
>>> And none of them have offer the slightest shred of proof that they're
>>> right and everyone else is wrong, of course.
>>
>> That's a true observation, but it isn't relevant here if they all (or
>> mostly) require a live birth before a new human being can be said to
>> exist.
>>
>> And, anyway, the /actual/ issue isn't the morality of abortion, it is
>> whether it should be legal or not. The USA experience with Prohibition
>> speaks to this because Prohibition also had a strong religious
>> component, and (had it worked) might have saved many lives, but it
>> /didn't/ work and was repealed. Just because something is considered
>> wrong, even by a majority, doesn't mean it should be made illegal.
>>
>> Well, the more traditional Calvinists still believe that the State
>> exists to do whatever they tell it to do. One of them said so, IIRC,
>> while running in a primary. (Another high-quality candidate defined
>> the family as "one /white/ man, one /white/ woman, and their
>> children". The true meaning of "traditional family values" as
>> understood by the Republican Party doesn't get much clearer than
>> that.) Hey, at least we can /identify/ the moles that need to be
>> whacked! (politically, of course)
>
> No, the actual issue is that the federal abortion right was granted
> based on a non-existent right to privacy in the USA Constitution.  There
> is no such right even though I think that there should be.

Dear god, you're one of those idiots.

>
> It appears that the right to privacy is being struck down and SCOTUS is
> going back to the Tenth Amendment.  The Tenth Amendment says that all
> rights not explicitly listed here are reserved to the States.  So each
> State will be able to decide what they want to do about abortion.

It does NOT say that.

"The POWERS not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
or to the people."

Governments don't HAVE rights.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: rpres...@gmail.com (Ross Presser)
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 by: Ross Presser - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:24 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:26:07 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:

> Well, the more traditional Calvinists still believe that the State
> exists to do whatever they tell it to do. One of them said so, IIRC,
> while running in a primary.

I would like to see a citation for that.

> (Another high-quality candidate defined
> the family as "one /white/ man, one /white/ woman, and their
> children". The true meaning of "traditional family values" as
> understood by the Republican Party doesn't get much clearer than
> that.)

That too, please.

I'm not doubting your memory, I just want to learn more about these events.

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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Subject: Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 13 May 2022 02:03 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 1:51:33 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-12 12:48 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:

> > No, the actual issue is that the federal abortion right was granted
> > based on a non-existent right to privacy in the USA Constitution. There
> > is no such right even though I think that there should be.

> Dear god, you're one of those idiots.

> > It appears that the right to privacy is being struck down and SCOTUS is
> > going back to the Tenth Amendment. The Tenth Amendment says that all
> > rights not explicitly listed here are reserved to the States. So each
> > State will be able to decide what they want to do about abortion.

> It does NOT say that.
>
> "The POWERS not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
> prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
> or to the people."
>
> Governments don't HAVE rights.

But the Tenth Amendment - or is it the Ninth Amendment - _does_ also say
something about rights, doesn't it?

Ah, yes, it's the Ninth Amendment that says:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed
to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

*This*, in fact, is what you could use if you wished to refute Lynn's claim
that the right to privacy is "non-existent". Unfortunately, _notwithstanding_
the Ninth Amendment, the Supreme Court cannot be claimed to be gifted
with psychic powers.

So they would, at the least, have to dig some justification for a right to
privacy out of, say, Blackstone's _Commentaries_, and good luck with
that, given that British common law was rather socially conservative in
its original form.

If I were a Supreme Court justice attempting to frame a judgment
re-asserting the essentials of _Roe vs Wade_ (abortion), _Griswold
vs Connecticut_ (contraception), _Loving vs Virginia_ (interracial
marriage), _Lawrence vs Texas_ (homosexual acts between
consenting adults), or _Obergefell vs Hodges_ (gay marriage),
as may well become necessary someday, given certain aspects of
the rationale for overthrowing _Roe vs Wade_ being indicative of
what may be to come, despite an explicit disclaimer in the leaked
draft, therefore, I would feel myself to be on shaky ground to simply
use the Ninth Amendment to assert, "well, people thought that having
privacy felt good, so obviously it's one of those non-enumerated rights
the Ninth Amendment was talking about".

I mean, I might still include that in my judgment just to be on the safe
side, but I would try to look for something a trifle more solid to also
include as well.

And there is something available. It still requires stretching a little,
but there is a certain degree of plausibility to the claim that the Establishment
Clause in the First Amendment has a "penumbra", as liberal courts
were wont to say, prohibiting not just the _explicit_ establishment of
religion, but also laws imposing standards of conduct clearly related
to religion - like a ban on eating pork, or laws which get into the minutae
of sexual morality.

John Savard

Re: A Poor Supreme Court Decision

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 by: Bice - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:25 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:24:25 -0700 (PDT), Ross Presser
<rpresser@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:26:07 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> Well, the more traditional Calvinists still believe that the State
>> exists to do whatever they tell it to do. One of them said so, IIRC,
>> while running in a primary.
>
>I would like to see a citation for that.

"Don't talk to me about separation of church and state. Church and
state was written because the state has no business in our church. But
we are the church. We are the church, and we run the state."

-- Georgia gubernatorial candidate Kandiss Taylor

Quote for May 2, 2022 from:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/doonesbury/media/say_what/archive?page=2

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