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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

SubjectAuthor
* Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemMichael Dworetsky
+- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemJack Bohn
+- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemScott Lurndal
`* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itempyotr filipivich
 +* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemRobert Carnegie
 |+* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemJ. Clarke
 ||+* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 |||`* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemKevrob
 ||| `- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemNinapenda Jibini
 ||+- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemTitus G
 ||+- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemRobert Carnegie
 ||`* Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemPaul S Person
 || `- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemJack Bohn
 |`- Moon Colony Wacky Baccy.Titus G
 `- Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news itemMichael Dworetsky

1
Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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 by: Michael Dworetsky - Fri, 13 May 2022 08:30 UTC

This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."

They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
shoots emerged with green leaves.

One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."

All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
asking for it not to be processed.

The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.

--
Mike Dworetsky

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
From: jack.boh...@gmail.com (Jack Bohn)
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 by: Jack Bohn - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:34 UTC

Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
> moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
> grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
> years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
> Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>
> They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
> and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
> planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
> shoots emerged with green leaves.

Doesn't say how much lunar dust to how much "other nutrients." At worst, I figure lunar soil can function as sand (or, as in some potted plants I've received, small styrofoam pellets,) in keeping the soil from compacting and allowing excess water to drain -- although one would wonder how Lunarians allowed excess water in the first place.

> All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
> do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
> course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
> seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
> gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
> asking for it not to be processed.

Sending carbon and nitrogen, or compounds of such dissolved in water would weigh the same as sending each separately, but take up less space, although requiring some method of separating them at the other end. I don't know that gross (as in large-scale) sewage water has this advantage.

--
-Jack

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<RXufK.2950$tTK.373@fx97.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 13 May 2022 15:38 UTC

Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@btinternet.com> writes:
>This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>
>They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>shoots emerged with green leaves.

IIRC, the article noted that while it did, indeed grow,
it grew poorly.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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 by: pyotr filipivich - Fri, 13 May 2022 19:06 UTC

Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>
>They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>shoots emerged with green leaves.
>
>One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
>trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
>light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
>
>All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
>do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
>course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
>seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>asking for it not to be processed.
>
>The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
>potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
>various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.

The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
but...)
Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
$$$).
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 13 May 2022 20:27 UTC

On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
> >moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
> >grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
> >years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
> >Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
> >
> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
> >and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
> >planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
> >shoots emerged with green leaves.
> >
> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
> >trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
> >light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
> >
> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
> >do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
> >course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
> >seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
> >gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
> >asking for it not to be processed.
> >
> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
> >potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
> >various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
> but...)
> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
> $$$).

Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
they are always on?

So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
<https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>

Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
/look/ like it...

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 13 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
>> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>> >moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>> >grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>> >years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>> >Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>> >
>> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>> >and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>> >planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>> >shoots emerged with green leaves.
>> >
>> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
>> >trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
>> >light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
>> >
>> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
>> >do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
>> >course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
>> >seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>> >gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>> >asking for it not to be processed.
>> >
>> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
>> >potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
>> >various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
>> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
>> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
>> but...)
>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
>> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
>> $$$).
>
>Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
>do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
>or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
>familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
>they are always on?
>
>So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
>in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>
>
>Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
>/look/ like it...

I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and putting out
seed.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:27 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:k6jt7h1rkrhp54a2v0husn1oha9d6ro7sq@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich
>>wrote:
>>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May
>>> 2022 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>>> following:
>>> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article
>>> >about how moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to
>>> >see if plants can be grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the
>>> >University of Florida spent 11 years asking to borrow lunar
>>> >dust brought back by Nasa crews.... Scientists were lent
>>> >12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>>> >
>>> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust,
>>> >adding water and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium
>>> >and other nutrients. They planted seeds of a weed,
>>> >Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and shoots emerged
>>> >with green leaves.
>>> >
>>> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can
>>> >imagine trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome
>>> >over them, shining light, adding nutrients and pouring water
>>> >on."
>>> >
>>> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in
>>> >lunar soil to do this without importing these elements from
>>> >Earth? To some extent,of course, these could be obtained from
>>> >astronauts' excretions, but this seems not to be a way to do
>>> >mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis gave a press
>>> >conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>>> >asking for it not to be processed.
>>> >
>>> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is
>>> >sodium, potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a
>>> >lot of oxygen in various minerals. But very little if any
>>> >nitrogen.
>>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it
>>> might be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are
>>> adapted to a 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle
>>> (okay, more like 354, but...)
>>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they
>>> are offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more
>>> engineering (I.e., $$$).
>>
>>Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
>>do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
>>or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
>>familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
>>they are always on?
>>
>>So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
>>in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
>><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/
>>>
>>
>>Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
>>/look/ like it...
>
> I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
> afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and
> putting out seed.
>
And dandelion is a source of significant nutrition. Plus, you can
make rubber out of the sap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyePMeGE3CI

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<aa07d9e9-11e3-46b5-bec8-2168a48e9f5bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
From: kev...@my-deja.com (Kevrob)
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 by: Kevrob - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:34 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:27:57 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:k6jt7h1rkrhp54a2v...@4ax.com:
> > On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> > <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich
> >>wrote:
> >>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May
> >>> 2022 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
> >>> following:
> >>> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article
> >>> >about how moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to
> >>> >see if plants can be grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the
> >>> >University of Florida spent 11 years asking to borrow lunar
> >>> >dust brought back by Nasa crews.... Scientists were lent
> >>> >12g--a few teaspoons' full."
> >>> >
> >>> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust,
> >>> >adding water and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium
> >>> >and other nutrients. They planted seeds of a weed,
> >>> >Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and shoots emerged
> >>> >with green leaves.
> >>> >
> >>> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can
> >>> >imagine trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome
> >>> >over them, shining light, adding nutrients and pouring water
> >>> >on."
> >>> >
> >>> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in
> >>> >lunar soil to do this without importing these elements from
> >>> >Earth? To some extent,of course, these could be obtained from
> >>> >astronauts' excretions, but this seems not to be a way to do
> >>> >mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis gave a press
> >>> >conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
> >>> >asking for it not to be processed.
> >>> >
> >>> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is
> >>> >sodium, potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a
> >>> >lot of oxygen in various minerals. But very little if any
> >>> >nitrogen.
> >>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it
> >>> might be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are
> >>> adapted to a 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle
> >>> (okay, more like 354, but...)
> >>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they
> >>> are offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more
> >>> engineering (I.e., $$$).
> >>
> >>Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
> >>do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
> >>or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
> >>familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
> >>they are always on?
> >>
> >>So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
> >>in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
> >><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/
> >>>
> >>
> >>Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
> >>/look/ like it...
> >
> > I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
> > afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and
> > putting out seed.
> >
> And dandelion is a source of significant nutrition. Plus, you can
> make rubber out of the sap.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyePMeGE3CI
>
> --
ObOtherSF: Dandelion Wine, by Bradbury.

I can see Loonies making Pruno out of it.

Can we put the domes on rails and have them circumnavigate the Moon
in order to stay in sunlight? " The Farms Must Roll!"

--
Kevin R

Moon Colony Wacky Baccy.

<t5mpv7$d96$1@dont-email.me>

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From: noo...@nowhere.com (Titus G)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Moon Colony Wacky Baccy.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:34:59 +1200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Titus G - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:34 UTC

On 14/05/22 08:27, Robert Carnegie wrote:
snip
> Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
> do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
> or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
> familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
> they are always on?

No. They have to imitate the climate of the plants' natural habitat but
speed up growth with heat so there has to be day, lights on, and night,
lights off. When the day cycle is shortened, the plant flowers,
producing buds containing the THC.

> So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
> in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
> <https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>
>
> Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
> /look/ like it...

Outdoor cannabis takes 6 or 7 months to grow in New Zealand and prior to
the budding season, the police search for plantations using helicopters.
It used to be seen as a gang activity but the media tell us that meth is
now the preferred option. Indoor plants under artificial light can
flower in three months but the yield is much lower though of higher
quality. Once big business became involved in the US, more strains have
been developed to the extent that they compete with wine for variations.
Cannabis is renown for creating a state called "having the munchies" so
it would do little to assuage the hunger of the moon colony.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<t5mq3v$d96$2@dont-email.me>

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From: noo...@nowhere.com (Titus G)
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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 11:37:35 +1200
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 by: Titus G - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:37 UTC

On 14/05/22 09:26, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
>>> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>> This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>>>> moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>>>> grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>>>> years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>>>> Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>>>>
>>>> They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>>>> and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>>>> planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>>>> shoots emerged with green leaves.
>>>>
>>>> One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
>>>> trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
>>>> light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
>>>>
>>>> All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
>>>> do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
>>>> course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
>>>> seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>>>> gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>>>> asking for it not to be processed.
>>>>
>>>> The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
>>>> potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
>>>> various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
>>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
>>> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
>>> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
>>> but...)
>>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
>>> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
>>> $$$).
>>
>> Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
>> do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
>> or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
>> familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
>> they are always on?
>>
>> So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
>> in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
>> <https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>
>>
>> Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
>> /look/ like it...
>
> I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
> afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and putting out
> seed.

I hope they don't taste like dandelions.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<c1c8708e-f698-4f90-a164-6eae9a6fa151n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 00:42:33 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Robert Carnegie - Sat, 14 May 2022 00:42 UTC

On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 22:26:47 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> >> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
> >> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
> >> >moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
> >> >grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
> >> >years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
> >> >Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
> >> >
> >> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
> >> >and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
> >> >planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
> >> >shoots emerged with green leaves.
> >> >
> >> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
> >> >trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
> >> >light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
> >> >
> >> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
> >> >do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
> >> >course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
> >> >seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
> >> >gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
> >> >asking for it not to be processed.
> >> >
> >> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
> >> >potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
> >> >various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
> >> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
> >> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
> >> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
> >> but...)
> >> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
> >> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
> >> $$$).
> >
> >Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
> >do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
> >or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
> >familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
> >they are always on?
> >
> >So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
> >in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
> ><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>
> >
> >Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
> >/look/ like it...
> I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
> afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and putting out
> seed.

I think they lie down on the ground until they're
ready to leap up and release their seed. Um...
anyway, I can believe the flowers lie flat when
they /hear/ a mowing machine.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<y6adnV0GCOqs-OL_nZ2dnUU7-IXNnZ2d@supernews.com>

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 by: Michael Dworetsky - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:15 UTC

On 13/05/2022 20:06, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>> moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>> grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>> years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>> Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>>
>> They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>> and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>> planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>> shoots emerged with green leaves.
>>
>> One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
>> trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
>> light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
>>
>> All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
>> do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
>> course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
>> seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>> gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>> asking for it not to be processed.
>>
>> The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
>> potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
>> various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
>
> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
> but...)
> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
> $$$).

I am not all that worried about adaptations to 24-hour cycles. Someone
mentioned indoor cannabis farms, which leave the lights on all the time
(and in one case not far from us in outer London they managed to burn
down a whole row of houses, because the illegal electricity
installations caught fire and it spread rapidly to several innocent
neighbours).

In any case, the place to put your solar panels is on the rim of a large
crater near the lunar south pole, which is in sunlight continuously on
one side or the other. And if not located there, then batteries could
be made, or maybe even giant capacitors (in the lunar vacuum this would
be easy, but be careful not to touch).

--
Mike Dworetsky

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<rflv7hd0umurseovh3jpcr9bh9t0b228ra@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:18:51 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Sat, 14 May 2022 16:18 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 17:26:40 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May 2022
>>> 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>> >This morning the London Times features a front-page article about how
>>> >moon dust from Apollo missions is being studied to see if plants can be
>>> >grown in lunar soil. "Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11
>>> >years asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>>> >Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>>> >
>>> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust, adding water
>>> >and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium and other nutrients. They
>>> >planted seeds of a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and
>>> >shoots emerged with green leaves.
>>> >
>>> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can imagine
>>> >trying to grow plants on the surface with a biodome over them, shining
>>> >light, adding nutrients and pouring water on."
>>> >
>>> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in lunar soil to
>>> >do this without importing these elements from Earth? To some extent,of
>>> >course, these could be obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this
>>> >seems not to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>>> >gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage water to Luna,
>>> >asking for it not to be processed.
>>> >
>>> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there is sodium,
>>> >potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith. And a lot of oxygen in
>>> >various minerals. But very little if any nitrogen.
>>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it might
>>> be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants are adapted to a
>>> 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour cycle (okay, more like 354,
>>> but...)
>>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time they are
>>> offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more engineering (I.e.,
>>> $$$).
>>
>>Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
>>do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
>>or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
>>familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
>>they are always on?
>>
>>So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
>>in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
>><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownups/>
>>
>>Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
>>/look/ like it...
>
>I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
>afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and putting out
>seed.

An Uncle once confided to me that what he did for his local church's
lawn was put a drop of gasoline on each and every dandelion.

No, I never tried it. And, yes, they are very prolific.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

<XnsAE977F8398892taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
References: <Z8adnZf7wp-jiuP_nZ2dnUU7-fnNnZ2d@supernews.com> <jpat7ht0f464r9npiq671fhsh7nlbvpiv2@4ax.com> <eafee177-9627-4568-b9eb-78cb6a5cd7b3n@googlegroups.com> <k6jt7h1rkrhp54a2v0husn1oha9d6ro7sq@4ax.com> <XnsAE96A77B6AC01taustingmail@85.12.62.232> <aa07d9e9-11e3-46b5-bec8-2168a48e9f5bn@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Sat, 14 May 2022 19:32 UTC

Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:aa07d9e9-11e3-46b5-bec8-2168a48e9f5bn@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:27:57 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:k6jt7h1rkrhp54a2v...@4ax.com:
>> > On Fri, 13 May 2022 13:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> > <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 20:06:59 UTC+1, pyotr filipivich
>> >>wrote:
>> >>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@btinternet.com> on Fri, 13 May
>> >>> 2022 09:30:54 +0100 typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> >>> following:
>> >>> >This morning the London Times features a front-page
>> >>> >article about how moon dust from Apollo missions is being
>> >>> >studied to see if plants can be grown in lunar soil.
>> >>> >"Researchers at the University of Florida spent 11 years
>> >>> >asking to borrow lunar dust brought back by Nasa crews....
>> >>> >Scientists were lent 12g--a few teaspoons' full."
>> >>> >
>> >>> >They filled thimble-sized wells with a gram of moon dust,
>> >>> >adding water and a solution of nitrogen, potassium, sodium
>> >>> >and other nutrients. They planted seeds of a weed,
>> >>> >Arabidopsis thaliana (mouse-ear cress) and shoots emerged
>> >>> >with green leaves.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >One scientist not involved in the research, said: "You can
>> >>> >imagine trying to grow plants on the surface with a
>> >>> >biodome over them, shining light, adding nutrients and
>> >>> >pouring water on."
>> >>> >
>> >>> >All very well, I say, but is there enough N, K, Na, etc in
>> >>> >lunar soil to do this without importing these elements
>> >>> >from Earth? To some extent,of course, these could be
>> >>> >obtained from astronauts' excretions, but this seems not
>> >>> >to be a way to do mass agriculture. Then again Manny Davis
>> >>> >gave a press conference asking Earth to send sewerage
>> >>> >water to Luna, asking for it not to be processed.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The real problem seems to be carbon and nitrogen, as there
>> >>> >is sodium, potassium, and phosphorus in lunar regolith.
>> >>> >And a lot of oxygen in various minerals. But very little
>> >>> >if any nitrogen.
>> >>> The real, un addressed issue remains: grow lights. While it
>> >>> might be possible to turn regolith into soil, earth plants
>> >>> are adapted to a 24 hour diurnal cycle, not a 336 hour
>> >>> cycle (okay, more like 354, but...)
>> >>> Solar panels are a groovy idea, but again, half the time
>> >>> they are offline. (PowerSats might work, but that is more
>> >>> engineering (I.e., $$$).
>> >>
>> >>Hmm. Mentioning grow lights prompts the thought:
>> >>do clandestine cannabis farms put the lights on and off,
>> >>or are they on basically all the time? I'm not sufficiently
>> >>familiar with the trade to know, but my impression is that
>> >>they are always on?
>> >>
>> >>So, the moon colony just needs a crop that grows decently
>> >>in a couple of weeks. Distant childhood recollection... aha!
>> >><https://www.growveg.co.uk/guides/how-to-grow-cress-for-grownu
>> >>ps/
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Or is that secretly about cannabis again... it doesn't
>> >>/look/ like it...
>> >
>> > I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
>> > afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and
>> > putting out seed.
>> >
>> And dandelion is a source of significant nutrition. Plus, you
>> can make rubber out of the sap.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyePMeGE3CI
>>
>> --
> ObOtherSF: Dandelion Wine, by Bradbury.
>
> I can see Loonies making Pruno out of it.

Dandelion wine is a thing.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: Heinlein and "Harsh Mistress" news item

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 by: Jack Bohn - Sat, 14 May 2022 20:17 UTC

Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 17:26:40 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I've got a cultivar of dandelion for them. Mowed on Tuesday
> >afternoon. On thursday afternoon they're a foot tall and putting out
> >seed.
> An Uncle once confided to me that what he did for his local church's
> lawn was put a drop of gasoline on each and every dandelion.
>
> No, I never tried it. And, yes, they are very prolific.

A spray of vinegar on the leaves will curl them up and wither them away.
(It has been suggested the leaves make good greens for a salad. I'll never try.)

I've long since decided my house pride doesn't require my yard to be dandelion-free,
just have fewer than my neighbors'. I uproot a few each week, using an old butter knife
to unweave the leaves from the grass and cut out a "plug" of soil around the root,
(which is as long or longer than the knife!)

--
-Jack

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