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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsCharles Packer
|+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
|||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
||||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
|||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsTony Nance
||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
|`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | || `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |||   |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||   |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |||    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||| |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| |||  `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| || `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||  +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||    |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsNinapenda Jibini
 | ||| ||    | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    |   +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||    |     +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |     |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| ||    |     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| ||    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |   |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 | ||| |   |   `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 | |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsChris Buckley
 | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston

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Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<rP6hK.4309$NMxb.1874@fx02.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Wed, 18 May 2022 13:49 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 5/17/2022 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:30 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
cident).
>>
>> What does any of that have to do with the US belonging to NATO? Are
>> you under the mistaken impression that those wars happened because a
>> NATO member invoked the NATO treaty rather than because Shrub didn't
>> think his dick was big enough?
>
>Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.

No, they were not. Some members of the coalition were
also NATO members, but NATO had nothing to do with it.
"NATO as an organization had no role in the
decision to undertake or conduct the campaign"

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B587A2BBDEtaustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:41 UTC

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote in
news:t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me:

> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but other
>>>>> inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a different
>>>>> viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>
>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to
>>>> -finland-159385
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>> No, it isn't.
>>
>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>
>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already. 
>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>> Afghanistan after that.  He and his First Sergeant had a four
>> hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>> talk.
>>
>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for wartime
>> duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>
>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated
>> and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not
>> reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily
>> take no for answer.  His answer was two of his buddies were
>> killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed
>> his buddy in their FOB (green on blue incident).
>>
> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>
> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have
> invaded Ukraine.

Heh. And if we hadn't elected a potato to replace him, it's even
less likely.

> Being part of a strong alliance is a way to
> AVOID wars.
>
Indeed. But when the main member of that alliance is headed up by a
potato, it isn't possible for the alliance to be strong.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B58C91C4B2taustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me> <t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 08:43:40 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:43 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but other
>>>>>> inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a different
>>>>>> viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-t
>>>>> o-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already. 
>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>> Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four
>>> hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>>> talk.
>>>
>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for wartime
>>> duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>
>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he
>>> was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not
>>> readily take no for answer. His answer was two of his buddies
>>> were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi soldier who
>>> killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue incident).
>>>
>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>
>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't
>> have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a
>> way to AVOID wars.
>
> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because
> the USA invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but
> they did send troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal
> grandchild under an assumed name.
>
> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
> probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.
>
Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like 9/11.
The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or here at
home" has significant merit.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B59671D2FBtaustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 08:47:19 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:47 UTC

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad:

> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>> No, it isn't.
>>
>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>
>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice.
>>He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan
>>after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk
>>about his lack of volunteering skills during that talk.
>
> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP
> that invaded IRAQ specifically Dick and George after lying
> through their teeth about the causes belli.
>
I'm more of the opinion they were lied *to* by intelligence people
who were too eager to please, and believed (at the time, at least)
what they were saying.

Much like how Putin got involved in the clusterfuck that is UkraIne.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:48 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>...
>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience of
>>> two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this is
>>> mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from
>>> a different viewpoint.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>>“Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>
>>https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-fi
>>nland-159385
>>
>>“A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>
>>It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>
> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
> there but without the forward basing and commonality of systems
> and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>
I can predict Lynn's response to that:

"Why would we care about the EU? What have they done for us (or,
rather, me, personally) lately?"

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:11 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:06:13 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Russia delenda est.

I agree emotionally with the sentiment. (Although not the quote. Rome was
an *aggressor nation* against Carthage.)

But Russia has nukes, so no one can destroy it. Instead, just as during the
long decades of the Cold War, we must remain eternally vigilant, with all
the free countries of the world united so that Russia cannot claim another
inch of territory.

We failed to do this in Ukraine. We must not fail again.

The appropriate step for the moment is: the United States, Canada, and
indeed all the members of NATO other than Turkey, should send troops to
the borders of Sweden and Finland with Russia, with the permission of those
countries, signing bilateral treaties with Sweden and Finland so as to give
them the _equivalent_ of full Article 5 protection even if they are never able
to join NATO.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:16 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:33:22 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Please link these posts.

I managed to necro up the thread OT: Some Facts About Leaving
Afghanistan by replying to one of them.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:38 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:49:11 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 5/17/2022 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:30 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>cident).
>>>
>>> What does any of that have to do with the US belonging to NATO? Are
>>> you under the mistaken impression that those wars happened because a
>>> NATO member invoked the NATO treaty rather than because Shrub didn't
>>> think his dick was big enough?
>>
>>Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>
>No, they were not. Some members of the coalition were
>also NATO members, but NATO had nothing to do with it.
>
> "NATO as an organization had no role in the
> decision to undertake or conduct the campaign"
>
>https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm

Ssssh ... you are refuting his Russian Propaganda!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:39 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:56:39 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>...
>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>>“Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>
>>https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>
>>“A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>them deal with it.”
>>
>>It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>
>And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>doctrine that we have now.

Which, of course, is just what a Friend of Putin would want.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:41 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06:11 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:53:04 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> ...
>> > Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>> > to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>> > business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>> > that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>> > shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>> > suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>> >
>> > John Savard
>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>
>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>
>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>> them deal with it.”
>
>Russia is a threat to the US, and all countries that respect democracy and the
>rule of law. Russia clearly interfered in the 2016 and 2020 elections, and seems
>to have supported Brexit, and the various extreme right movements in Europe.
>
>Putin regards Western values as anathema, and tries at every turn to sow division
>and extremist hate.
>
>Russia delenda est.

I think that's a bit extreme.

For one thing, I don't think there's enough salt available.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:48 UTC

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>news:8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad:
>
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>
>>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice.
>>>He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan
>>>after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk
>>>about his lack of volunteering skills during that talk.
>>
>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP
>> that invaded IRAQ specifically Dick and George after lying
>> through their teeth about the causes belli.
>>
>I'm more of the opinion they were lied *to* by intelligence people
>who were too eager to please, and believed (at the time, at least)
>what they were saying.

As one president remarked, "The Buck Stops Here".

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:51 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.  Twice.  He was
>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that.
>>> He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>
>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from
>>> Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four
>>> year active duty.  By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they
>>> can now call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>
>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and
>>> had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with
>>> the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer.
>>> His answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on
>>> blue incident).
>>>
>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>
>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have invaded
>> Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>
>Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>
>I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.

So you're saying that if there was no NATO Shrub wouldn't have lashed
out at Iraq and Afghanistan? On what basis do you make that
contention?

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:55 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:31:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:30 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>> and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>
>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from Lance
>>> Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four year
>>> active duty. By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they can now
>>> call him up for wartime duty until he is 45. He is now 38.
>>>
>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and had
>>> to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with the
>>> Corps. Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer. His
>>> answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq. He had to shoot the
>>> Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue incident).
>>
>> What does any of that have to do with the US belonging to NATO? Are
>> you under the mistaken impression that those wars happened because a
>> NATO member invoked the NATO treaty rather than because Shrub didn't
>> think his dick was big enough?
>
>Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The British,
>French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA invoked the
>NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send troops.
>Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>
>I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.

You _sent_ your kids? What did you do, hold a gun to their heads and
make them join the armed forces?

However you really weren't paying attention if you think that either
Iraq or Afghanistan was something that NATO dragged the US into. Shrub
was going to prove that his dick was bigger than his daddy's
regardless of what NATO did. NATO got dragged into those by the US,
not the other way around, and the fact that you believe that NATO
somehow forced the US into them tells me that your grounding in
reality is no firmer than Quadi's or Person's.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<t89a8h5ec5g36kieofhbpherlm583hrg7h@4ax.com>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:57 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:06:13 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Russia delenda est.
>
>I agree emotionally with the sentiment. (Although not the quote. Rome was
>an *aggressor nation* against Carthage.)
>
>But Russia has nukes, so no one can destroy it.

Of course someone can. March in, take the hit, keep marching, pull
down every building, raze every middlesex, village, and farm, salt the
ground, the whole nine yards.

The result might be civilization delenda est, but the fact that they
have nuclear weapons doesn't make them invulnerable.

>Instead, just as during the
>long decades of the Cold War, we must remain eternally vigilant, with all
>the free countries of the world united so that Russia cannot claim another
>inch of territory.
>
>We failed to do this in Ukraine. We must not fail again.
>
>The appropriate step for the moment is: the United States, Canada, and
>indeed all the members of NATO other than Turkey, should send troops to
>the borders of Sweden and Finland with Russia, with the permission of those
>countries, signing bilateral treaties with Sweden and Finland so as to give
>them the _equivalent_ of full Article 5 protection even if they are never able
>to join NATO.
>
>John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:22 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:14:42 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> If "one's community" is your race - I think that most people
> would regard that as racism, whether they're for or against that.

Apparently I will need to word my posts much more precisely
to avoid misunderstandings.

One's race is _a_ community to which one belongs. Of course
under normal circumstances people should be able to include
people of different colors among their friends, co-workers, and
acquaintances.

> People are /allowed to be different./

Oh, yes. But the question is... will they? Will they be allowed to
be different by other humans?

It isn't as if white Europeans are the only group of people on this
Earth who ever discriminated against people of other ethnic
groups.

Look at the so-called "communal violence" in India.

Look at the treatment of Coptic Christians in Egypt.

Look at the treatment of minority religious groups in Pakistan.

Look at the difficulties that have happened in several African
countries.

Therefore I don't believe my point to be either invalid or racist;
while the "great replacement theory" _is_ racist, because there
is no genuine danger of white people becoming the minority in
the United States...

*if* that prospect *actually existed*, then a reasonable white
person concerned about the survival and well-being of himself
and his family _would_ have legitimate cause to be dismayed at
the prospect.

Shooting up random black people at a local grocery store would
still not be a reasonable response, but calling for changes to the
immigration laws, for example, might be.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<z_9hK.61496$qMI1.22828@fx96.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:25 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:31:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The British,
>>French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA invoked the
>>NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send troops.
>>Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>
>>I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>>probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.
>
>You _sent_ your kids? What did you do, hold a gun to their heads and
>make them join the armed forces?
>
>However you really weren't paying attention if you think that either
>Iraq or Afghanistan was something that NATO dragged the US into. Shrub
>was going to prove that his dick was bigger than his daddy's
>regardless of what NATO did. NATO got dragged into those by the US,

NATO wasn't involved at all. Perhaps you are thinking of the UN?

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B6EEA13DB5taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad> <XnsAE9B59671D2FBtaustingmail@85.12.62.232> <7r9hK.48988$JSxf.34835@fx11.iad>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:54 UTC

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:7r9hK.48988$JSxf.34835@fx11.iad:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>news:8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad:
>>
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>
>>>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>>
>>>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice.
>>>>He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four
>>>>hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>>>>talk.
>>>
>>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP
>>> that invaded IRAQ specifically Dick and George after lying
>>> through their teeth about the causes belli.
>>>
>>I'm more of the opinion they were lied *to* by intelligence
>>people who were too eager to please, and believed (at the time,
>>at least) what they were saying.
>
> As one president remarked, "The Buck Stops Here".
>
DT didn't say Bush was resonsible, he said Bush lied. Lying is a
specific allegation that involves the person doing it knowing what
they are saying is untrue. I realize this is a pretty subtle
distinction, what with you being an idiot and all, but it's an
important one.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B7258D8B12taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <1e6101d3-3e89-408e-91c4-b000ae306553n@googlegroups.com> <25b02147-713a-4ef8-8b94-a1fe2c27500an@googlegroups.com> <t89a8h5ec5g36kieofhbpherlm583hrg7h@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:14 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t89a8h5ec5g36kieofhbpherlm583hrg7h@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:06:13 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Russia delenda est.
>>
>>I agree emotionally with the sentiment. (Although not the quote.
>>Rome was an *aggressor nation* against Carthage.)
>>
>>But Russia has nukes, so no one can destroy it.
>
> Of course someone can. March in, take the hit, keep marching,
> pull down every building, raze every middlesex, village, and
> farm, salt the ground, the whole nine yards.
>
> The result might be civilization delenda est, but the fact that
> they have nuclear weapons doesn't make them invulnerable.
>
One of the things that came out of the dissolution of the Soviet
Union was the declassifying of a *lot* of Cold War documents. There
were some shocking revelations.

Our view of their nuclear arsenal was based on necessarily
incomplete and flawed intelligence, warped by deliberate intent by
Eisenhower's "military industrial complex" (who wanted to sell
billions of dollars worth of missiles to the government). So we
significantly overestimated their arsenal, and significantly
overestimated it's capabiliites. Meanwhile, we were a lot less
secretive about our abilities, even ICBMs, so they had a much
better assessment of our abilities than we did of theirs.

The end result of that was MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction. That
was our analysis: however started a nuclear war, *both* sides are
completely destroyed.

But based on their *far* more accurate knowledge of their own
systems, they came to a different conclusion: If *they* started a
nuclear war, both sides lose. But if *we* started it, we win, and
while damaged, the US continues to exist as a world power.

That was based on the Soviet's knowledge of their own systems, at
the peak of their development and effectiveness. As their
conventional forces have proven, Russia has done a piss poor job of
even maintaining Soviet era military capabilities, much less
maintaining state of the art. And ICBMs are a much more
complicated, demanding, and *expensive* technology.

It is reasonable to question whethre or not Russia could deliver a
nuclear bomb any other than to drive it across the border in a
truck, and to question whether or not it would go off if they did.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<XnsAE9B728988542taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:15 UTC

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:oc8a8hdbv1cgt1c3o4uv9pb8dlv7k2q7l0@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06:11 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:53:04 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
>>wrote:
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> ...
>>> > Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>> > parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>> > America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>> > beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>> > of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>> > is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>> > from a different viewpoint.
>>> >
>>> > John Savard
>>> �Why Would US Give a War Guarantee � to Finland?�
>>>
>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-
>>> finland-159385
>>>
>>> �A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.�
>>
>>Russia is a threat to the US, and all countries that respect
>>democracy and the rule of law. Russia clearly interfered in the
>>2016 and 2020 elections, and seems to have supported Brexit, and
>>the various extreme right movements in Europe.
>>
>>Putin regards Western values as anathema, and tries at every
>>turn to sow division and extremist hate.
>>
>>Russia delenda est.
>
> I think that's a bit extreme.
>
> For one thing, I don't think there's enough salt available.

Salt is a significant component of human blood, IIRC.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <29i88h97u2gd8htsn736hahn8sjr3l3cdo@4ax.com> <t61p9n$rur$2@dont-email.me> <n09a8h5gsoidih6f9kprk73rh3cfh29egg@4ax.com>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:16 UTC

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:n09a8h5gsoidih6f9kprk73rh3cfh29egg@4ax.com:

> and the fact that you
> believe that NATO somehow forced the US into them tells me that
> your grounding in reality is no firmer than Quadi's or Person's.
>
You're just noticing that?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <9c95d181-b39e-4124-9b12-e22ffe9db63cn@googlegroups.com> <23b716b4-97d2-4748-9df2-11861ea9bda3n@googlegroups.com>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:17:47 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:17 UTC

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:23b716b4-97d2-4748-9df2-11861ea9bda3n@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:14:42 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie
> wrote:
>
>> If "one's community" is your race - I think that most people
>> would regard that as racism, whether they're for or against
>> that.
>
> Apparently I will need to word my posts much more precisely
> to avoid misunderstandings.

Knowing what the fuck you're talking about would go a lot further.

And if pigs had wings . . .

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:50:12 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:50 UTC

On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06:11 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:53:04 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>
>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>
>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>> them deal with it.”
>>
>> Russia is a threat to the US, and all countries that respect democracy and the
>> rule of law. Russia clearly interfered in the 2016 and 2020 elections, and seems
>> to have supported Brexit, and the various extreme right movements in Europe.
>>
>> Putin regards Western values as anathema, and tries at every turn to sow division
>> and extremist hate.
>>
>> Russia delenda est.
>
> I think that's a bit extreme.
>
> For one thing, I don't think there's enough salt available.

Nuclear ICBMs, the new SALT. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:16:52 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:16 UTC

On 5/18/2022 11:51 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>
>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>
>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.  Twice.  He was
>>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that.
>>>> He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>>
>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from
>>>> Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four
>>>> year active duty.  By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they
>>>> can now call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>
>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and
>>>> had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with
>>>> the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer.
>>>> His answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on
>>>> blue incident).
>>>>
>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>
>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have invaded
>>> Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>
>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>> invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>> troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>
>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>> probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.
>
> So you're saying that if there was no NATO Shrub wouldn't have lashed
> out at Iraq and Afghanistan? On what basis do you make that
> contention?

I think that GW Bush used NATO for cover for the invasion of Iraq in
payment for Saddam Hussein trying to kill his father. Without NATO he
probably would not have done it, just continued shooting down their
planes and bombing their anti-aircraft sites using HARMs.

I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan. That was NATO
also. Moving troops in made no sense when we already had bombed
everything in sight back to the stone age.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:23:15 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:23 UTC

On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but other
>>>>>>> inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a different
>>>>>>> viewpoint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-t
>>>>>> o-finland-159385
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>
>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>
>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>> Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four
>>>> hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>>>> talk.
>>>>
>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for wartime
>>>> duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>
>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he
>>>> was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not
>>>> readily take no for answer. His answer was two of his buddies
>>>> were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi soldier who
>>>> killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue incident).
>>>>
>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>
>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't
>>> have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a
>>> way to AVOID wars.
>>
>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because
>> the USA invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but
>> they did send troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal
>> grandchild under an assumed name.
>>
>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>> probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.
>>
> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like 9/11.
> The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or here at
> home" has significant merit.

I think that is a little too simplistic but, you could be right. There
was lots of things going on in the middle east and we got blamed for a
lot of it even though we were not totally at fault.

The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor in 1941. We
were messing with the Japanese because they were messing with China.
Whom, we were supporting and running large gunboats up and down the
Chinese rivers.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:29 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:

> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.

Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
haven for the Taliban, eh?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

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