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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: xkcd: Crepe

SubjectAuthor
* xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeAlan
|`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
| `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|   `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|    |`- Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeThomas Koenig
|    `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|     +* Re: xkcd: Cr?peThe Horny Goat
|     |`* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     | `* Re: xkcd: CrepeThe Horny Goat
|     |  `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   |+- Re: xkcd: CrepeAlan
|     |   |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   |+* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|     |   ||+* Re: xkcd: CrepeJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|     |   |||`- Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   ||+* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   |||+- Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|     |   |||`- Re: xkcd: CrepeThomas Koenig
|     |   ||`- Re: xkcd: CrepeThe Horny Goat
|     |   |`* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   | `- Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: CrepeJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|     |   |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   `- Re: xkcd: CrepeAlan
|     `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|      `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|       `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|        `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|         `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|          `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           | `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           |   `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|            `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|             `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
||`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| | | +* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeScott Lurndal
|| | | |`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| | | `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |  `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |   `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |`* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    | `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |  `- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |+- Re: xkcd: CrepeThomas Koenig
|| | |    |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    `- Re: xkcd: CrepeJohn W Kennedy
|| | `* Re: xkcd: Cre^peJoy Beeson
|| |  `- Re: xkcd: Cre^peJohn W Kennedy
|| +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
||  `- Re: xkcd: Crêpepete...@gmail.com
|`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
| `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|  `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDefault User
 `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire

Pages:1234
Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<eke1x1w6v36p.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73608&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73608

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:07:29 -0400
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 by: Quinn C - Mon, 16 May 2022 22:07 UTC

* John W Kennedy:

> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>
>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris
>>>> by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>
>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>
>>>> Explained at:
>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining
>>> inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried
>>> both straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI
>>> app.)
>>
>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>
>> Lynn
>
> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ) and
> a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a tiny A
> (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of Duke, the
> Java mascot) above it.

My spontaneous interpretation was that it was a circumflex in an outline
font. I don't think we can combine a diacritic in an outline font with a
character in a different font, though.

--
Worf: You are not in my shoes.
Dax: Too bad. You'd be amazed at what I can do in a pair of size 18
boots.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<o8r58hpjl4sk0ti9v46s4eiuqu1niqiatd@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73618&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73618

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:38 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>> this instance?
>>>>
>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>> because of that.
>>>>
>>>> Good for him.
>>>
>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>
>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>> another platform.
>
>I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.

While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
expects that environment.

Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
Then there's the whole j universe.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<fkr58h9sa2st5s9sp9iuta3e3kfnl85p74@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 00:39 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>
>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>
>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>         Gary    B-)
>
>Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.

As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
handle Chinese with 8 bits.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<t5uv0e$r88$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Tue, 17 May 2022 01:50 UTC

On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>
>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>         Gary    B-)
>>
>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>
> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
> handle Chinese with 8 bits.

Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
code is dicey at best though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Quinn C - Tue, 17 May 2022 02:27 UTC

* Lynn McGuire:

> On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
> Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8.

That's doesn't fall under the normal interpretation of "handle with 8
bits" for me.

--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<e8jbli-ouk.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>

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From: grschm...@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt)
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Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: Gary R. Schmidt - Tue, 17 May 2022 04:00 UTC

On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>
>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ)
>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>
>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>
>>      Cheers,
>>          Gary    B-)
>
> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>
UNICODE?? It's a joke, Joyce. (If only it was!!)

And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
understanding) of UNICODE for decades.

The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
time and date.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Re: Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<6mNgK.32009$6dof.17457@fx13.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:24 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
>Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>code is dicey at best though.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
>

UTF-8 _is_ unicode. There are many possible encodings for unicode,
UTF-8 is the most common outside of windows, which uses UTF-16 by
default.

And Clarke is correct, you cannot represent Chinese in 8 bits, even
when using UTF-8 encoding.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<baadncYGdPnuSR7_nZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:59 UTC

On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>
>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>
>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>> another platform.
>>
>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>
> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
> expects that environment.

Especially since the ⍎ operator (small circle over inverted-T),
“Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
expression in the current context.
> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
> Then there's the whole j universe.

It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
sells it as Log-On APL2.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<Lradneg4v83GSB7_nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:03 UTC

On 5/17/22 9:24 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>
>>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>>
>> Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>> the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>> code is dicey at best though.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
>>
>
> UTF-8 _is_ unicode. There are many possible encodings for unicode,
> UTF-8 is the most common outside of windows, which uses UTF-16 by
> default.

Cocoa has always used UTF-16 (though with translation to/from UTF-8 and
UTF-32 are available), but, a couple of years ago, Swift changed its
internal representation to UTF-8.

> And Clarke is correct, you cannot represent Chinese in 8 bits, even
> when using UTF-8 encoding.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:44 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>><john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>
>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>back in the day.
>
>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>VisiCalc".
>
>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>
>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>a /business/.

While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.strips,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crêpe
Date: 17 May 2022 17:45:07 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:45 UTC

On 13 May 2022 at 23:26:33 BST, "John W Kennedy"
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> xkcd: Crêpe
>> https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>
>> I love crêpes ! My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews stood
>> at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris by the
>> Eiffel Tower back in 2009. We had a lot more fun than standing in that
>> hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>
>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>
>> Explained at:
>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>
>> Lynn
>
> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I can’t
> even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining inverted
> breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried both
> straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI app.)

On a Mac, just hold the "e" key down for about 2.5 seconds and you get a
popup with accent offerings. Applies to the other obvious candidate keys
also.

There's no sense in trying to work out characters that have been to
Usenet and back, though. Clients and servers alike are awful at anything
other than straight ascii, and will badly smash any other encoding
during transit unless a miracle happens.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
I hope I live long enough
to vindicate my pessimism
-- http://www.boasas.com/?c=1108

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.strips,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crêpe
Date: 17 May 2022 17:46:32 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On 14 May 2022 at 22:07:05 BST, "John W Kennedy"
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>> https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>
>>>> I love crêpes ! My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris
>>>> by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009. We had a lot more fun than
>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>
>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>
>>>> Explained at:
>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining
>>> inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried
>>> both straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI
>>> app.)
>>
>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ? Or are you
>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>
>> Lynn
>
> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ) and
> a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a tiny A
> (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of Duke, the
> Java mascot) above it.
>
> On further research, I find that the three-part E+ ̑+ ̂ combination works
> on my Mac with in a trivial SwiftUI app if I use Arial as the font.

Ew. I rescind my previous article, which of course also isn't possible
on Usenet.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"But people have always eaten people!
What else is there to eat?
If the Juju had meant us not to eat people
He wouldn't have made us of meat!"
-- Flanders & Swann

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crêpe
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:46:36 PM UTC-4, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On 14 May 2022 at 22:07:05 BST, "John W Kennedy"
> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> >>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>> xkcd: Crêpe
> >>>> https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
> >>>>
> >>>> I love crêpes ! My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
> >>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in Paris
> >>>> by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009. We had a lot more fun than
> >>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
> >>>>
> >>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Explained at:
> >>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
> >>>>
> >>>> Lynn
> >>>
> >>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
> >>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a combining
> >>> inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in theory. (I tried
> >>> both straight output to the command-line window and a trivial SwiftUI
> >>> app.)
> >>
> >> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ? Or are you
> >> talking about the little hat over the e ?
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ) and
> > a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a tiny A
> > (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of Duke, the
> > Java mascot) above it.
> >
> > On further research, I find that the three-part E+ ̑+ ̂ combination works
> > on my Mac with in a trivial SwiftUI app if I use Arial as the font.
>
> Ew. I rescind my previous article, which of course also isn't possible
> on Usenet.

There's no reason Unicode can't work on Usenet, but a great deal of the
time, it doesn't. I've successfully posted Tibetan script from trn, and it was
readable (if you read Tibetan).

However, the stumbling blocks are:

Many clients strip the eighth bit off characters. Some (including trn) can
be told to leave it.

Many clients fail to add the appropriate headers to clue the recipient software
that there are multibyte characters present.

Some people (looking at you, Keith) use(d) ancient character based terminals that
have no idea how to handle Unicode.

pt

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:51 UTC

On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (Ȇ)
>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>
>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>
>>>      Cheers,
>>>          Gary    B-)
>>
>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>
> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>
> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
> time and date.
>
>     Cheers,
>         Gary    B-)

We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 21:57 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>
>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>> another platform.
>>>
>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>
>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>> expects that environment.
>
>Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>“Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>expression in the current context.
>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>
>It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>sells it as Log-On APL2.

Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
preventing actual sales.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
Message-ID: <fj688h9vqc6rms071aormu5p92g9lvn4ga@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Tue, 17 May 2022 21:59 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 20:50:05 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 7:39 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun than
>>>>>>>> standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window and
>>>>>>> a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are you
>>>>>> talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with a
>>>>> tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing of
>>>>> Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here. As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>
>> As implemented it's a bit wild-west, but it was necessary--you can't
>> handle Chinese with 8 bits.
>
>Yes, you can with variable-width character encoding UTF-8. We are in
>the middle of converting our software distribution to it. The Fortran
>code is dicey at best though.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8

UTF-8 isn't 8-bit. It's variable width with an 8-bit subset.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<3i7a8hdajjt3sfr5cu13hvedc93fmslhup@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:31:39 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>><john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>
>>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>back in the day.
>>
>>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>VisiCalc".
>>
>>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>
>>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>a /business/.
>
>While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.

I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.

But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is still
around today.

The IBM PC was a 16-bit machine. Well, an 8088 anyway. But pressure
from the clones (once they stopped trying to be unique and actually
/became/ clones) caused it to evolve to the 8086 and then to a 32-bit
machine, and now a 64-bit machine. Whether a 128-bit version will ever
appear I have no idea.

And Apple now runs on processors developed for the IBM-PC clone
market, which has long-since become simply the PC market.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<aq8a8hp13bsbt6i8m1vifprv7v7q1643d5@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:48:21 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:48 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>
>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>
>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>
>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>
>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>> time and date.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>         Gary    B-)
>
>We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.

Stupid question time:

you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
Unicode, right?

not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode

I /said/ it was a stupid question.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<ni8a8h11g4j0aihfqndkodkf2e9e3jvikv@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73781&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73781

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Message-ID: <ni8a8h11g4j0aihfqndkodkf2e9e3jvikv@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:31:39 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>><john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>
>>>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>>back in the day.
>>>
>>>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>>VisiCalc".
>>>
>>>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>
>>>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>>a /business/.
>>
>>While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>>introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>>versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>>number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>>running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>
>I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>
>But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is still
>around today.
>
>The IBM PC was a 16-bit machine. Well, an 8088 anyway. But pressure
>from the clones (once they stopped trying to be unique and actually
>/became/ clones) caused it to evolve to the 8086 and then to a 32-bit
>machine, and now a 64-bit machine. Whether a 128-bit version will ever
>appear I have no idea.

What IBM PC model used the 8086? There were the PC and XT which were
8088 and then the AT which was 80286.

>And Apple now runs on processors developed for the IBM-PC clone
>market, which has long-since become simply the PC market.

Intel processors were chosen initially by IBM--they weren't "developed
for the IBM-PC clone market", the IBM PC was developed around Intel
processors.

AMD, Cyrix, etc are another story. But Apple doesn't use AMD
processors.

And Apple _now_ runs on processors developed by Apple for the Apple
market. But perhaps while you were jerking your true-blue knee you
missed the M1 chips.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<0a5c3fd5-0b14-43eb-9547-236deb0de62an@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:54 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
> >>><john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
> >>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
> >>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
> >>>
> >>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
> >>>back in the day.
> >>
> >>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
> >>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
> >>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
> >>VisiCalc".
> >>
> >>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
> >>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
> >>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
> >>
> >>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
> >>a /business/.
> >
> >While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
> >introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
> >versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
> >number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
> >running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.

> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.

As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
case.

pt

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<XnsAE9B73B93C087taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:22:33 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 1643
 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:22 UTC

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:3i7a8hdajjt3sfr5cu13hvedc93fmslhup@4ax.com:

> But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is
> still around today.
>
Aside from things like the $150 million investment from Microsoft to
bolster their claims they weren't an illegal monopoly.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t63p89$7q6$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73819&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73819

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:42:31 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:42 UTC

On 5/18/2022 11:54 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>>> back in the day.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>>> businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>>> they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>>> VisiCalc".
>>>>
>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>>> IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>>> were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>>
>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>>> a /business/.
>>>
>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>>> introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>>> versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>>> number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>>> running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>
>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>
> As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
> it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
> case.
>
> pt

Huh. All of the six bit machines that I programmed on (UNIVAC 1108, CDC
7600, etc) did not support lower case characters since the lower case
characters used the 7th bit in ASCII. But all the eight bit machines
that I used (IBM PC, DEC VMS, Prime 450 / 750, IBM 370, etc) did support
lower case characters. So the Apple II should have supported lower case
since Wikipedia says that it is an 8 bit machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II

"The video controller displayed 24 lines by 40 columns of monochrome,
uppercase-only text on the screen (the original character set matches
ASCII characters 20h to 5Fh), with NTSC composite video output suitable
for display on a TV monitor or on a regular TV set (by way of a separate
RF modulator)."

Ah, the video controller did not support lower case.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t63r9t$fj5$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73822&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73822

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:17 UTC

On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>
>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>
>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>
>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>
>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>> time and date.
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>         Gary    B-)
>>
>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>
> Stupid question time:
>
> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
> Unicode, right?
>
> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>
> I /said/ it was a stupid question.

No questions are stupid.

We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png

Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.

I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
suck.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<XnsAE9B9F595C901taustingmail@85.12.62.232>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <t5me2e$u7k$1@dont-email.me> <t5mej8$u7k$3@dont-email.me> <5fjt7hlsjpevpk15gs8kj2fc30qhb4fldh@4ax.com> <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me> <rBwInC.1J7D@kithrup.com> <_J6dnQymtJ112Bz_nZ2dnUU7-bfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <n4j38hdga4qh2fv1bnsnt916tt1pr3heke@4ax.com> <f6158hp9rbu0r3r64ehuq6trnf5dn4n30d@4ax.com> <ein78hhrk9u2ij686i04vjb67t11k0n4v8@4ax.com> <3i7a8hdajjt3sfr5cu13hvedc93fmslhup@4ax.com> <0a5c3fd5-0b14-43eb-9547-236deb0de62an@googlegroups.com> <t63p89$7q6$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:39 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63p89$7q6$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/18/2022 11:54 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat
>>> <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat
>>>>> <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants
>>>>>>> and the like in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc
>>>>>>> (awaiting a cry from the Peanut Gallery, “What’s
>>>>>>> Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand
>>>>>> Apple II's back in the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early
>>>>> 80s that businessmen were flocking to computer stores and
>>>>> buying any computer they could get (all of them 8-bit
>>>>> things) "so long as it ran VisiCalc".
>>>>>
>>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so
>>>>> annoyed the IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM
>>>>> to create the IBM PC, were probably running VisiCalc. Or
>>>>> maybe WordStar.
>>>>>
>>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a
>>>>> /hobby/ to a /business/.
>>>>
>>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981
>>>> when they introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+
>>>> Apples (mostly various versions of the II) by the end of 1980
>>>> (one of them to me) and a large number of them WERE running
>>>> Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely running spreadsheets
>>>> by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>>
>>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and
>>> other early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>>
>> As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can
>> confirm that it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the
>> box, it didn't even support lower case.
>>
>> pt
>
> Huh. All of the six bit machines that I programmed on (UNIVAC
> 1108, CDC 7600, etc) did not support lower case characters since
> the lower case characters used the 7th bit in ASCII. But all
> the eight bit machines that I used (IBM PC, DEC VMS, Prime 450 /
> 750, IBM 370, etc) did support lower case characters. So the
> Apple II should have supported lower case since Wikipedia says
> that it is an 8 bit machine.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II
>
> "The video controller displayed 24 lines by 40 columns of
> monochrome, uppercase-only text on the screen (the original
> character set matches ASCII characters 20h to 5Fh), with NTSC
> composite video output suitable for display on a TV monitor or
> on a regular TV set (by way of a separate RF modulator)."
>
> Ah, the video controller did not support lower case.
>
I suspect that'w why he qualified it with "out of the box."

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<_7udnQ-tUuxjCxj_nZ2dnUU7-YXNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 01:01 UTC

On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>> another platform.
>>>>
>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>
>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>> expects that environment.
>>
>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>> expression in the current context.
>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>
>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>
> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
> preventing actual sales.

I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
website says nothing of a problem

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Pages:1234
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