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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsCharles Packer
|+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
|||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
||||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
|||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsTony Nance
||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
|`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | || `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |||   |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||   |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |||    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||| |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| |||  `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| || `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||  +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||    |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsNinapenda Jibini
 | ||| ||    | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    |   +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||    |     +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |     |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| ||    |     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| ||    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |   |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 | ||| |   |   `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 | |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsChris Buckley
 | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston

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Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<t63ogn$qp6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:29:57 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:29 UTC

On 5/18/2022 10:48 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience of
>>>> two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this is
>>>> mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from
>>>> a different viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>>
>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>
>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-fi
>>> nland-159385
>>>
>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>
>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>
>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of systems
>> and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>>
> I can predict Lynn's response to that:
>
> "Why would we care about the EU? What have they done for us (or,
> rather, me, personally) lately?"

You do realize that we are probably headed to USA peacekeepers in the
Ukraine.

My agent in Russia told me that he was going to take his family and
leave four weeks ago, probably to Germany. He has not gotten back to me
yet so I have no idea if he made it out or has been arrested.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:31 UTC

On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> ...
>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>
>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>
>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>> them deal with it.”
>>
>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>
> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
> doctrine that we have now.

We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
one out and let those people defend themselves.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me> <t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me> <XnsAE9B58C91C4B2taustingmail@85.12.62.232> <t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:32:12 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:32 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but
>>>>>>>> other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a
>>>>>>>> different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee
>>>>>>> -t o-finland-159385
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after
>>>>>>> the Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia
>>>>>>> does not threaten the United States. As for any threat
>>>>>>> that it poses to its European neighbors, let them deal
>>>>>>> with it.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>> Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a
>>>>> four hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during
>>>>> that talk.
>>>>>
>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for
>>>>> wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>
>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why
>>>>> he was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals
>>>>> do not readily take no for answer. His answer was two of
>>>>> his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi
>>>>> soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue
>>>>> incident).
>>>>>
>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>
>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>>>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia
>>>> wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong
>>>> alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>
>>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>>> The British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in
>>> because the USA invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the
>>> USA did but they did send troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a
>>> royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>
>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint
>>> venture, probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent
>>> mine.
>>>
>> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like
>> 9/11. The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or
>> here at home" has significant merit.
>
> I think that is a little too simplistic but,

It's a long term factor, but it's a big one.

> you could be right.

I am.

> There was lots of things going on in the middle east and we got
> blamed for a lot of it even though we were not totally at fault.

We were at fault for enough to piss off some violently crazy
people.
>
> The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor in
> 1941. We were messing with the Japanese because they were
> messing with China. Whom, we were supporting and running large
> gunboats up and down the Chinese rivers.
>
And? Not all US interests are confined to US soil. That has always
been the case, and always will be. There are entire cultures that
hate us and want to murder us all simply because we are not like
them, and they aren't going away. Ignoring them signals that we are
weak and encourages attacks.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com> <XnsAE9B598E7DC34taustingmail@85.12.62.232> <t63ogn$qp6$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:34:14 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:34 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63ogn$qp6$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/18/2022 10:48 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>>>> of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>>>> is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>>>> from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>
>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to
>>>> -fi nland-159385
>>>>
>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>
>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of
>>> systems and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>> I can predict Lynn's response to that:
>>
>> "Why would we care about the EU? What have they done for us
>> (or, rather, me, personally) lately?"
>
> You do realize that we are probably headed to USA peacekeepers
> in the Ukraine.

More likly UN peacekeepers, which will include some from the US.
Which will require a restructuring of the UN charter to keep Russia
from vetoing it, but that's on the table right now.

We just sent peacekeeprs back to Solamlia, after all. What else can
you expect when the Democrats are in charge?
>
> My agent in Russia told me that he was going to take his family
> and leave four weeks ago, probably to Germany. He has not
> gotten back to me yet so I have no idea if he made it out or has
> been arrested.
>
Here's hoping the best for him and his family.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com> <t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:34:48 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:34 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me:

> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>>> of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>>> is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>>> from a different viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>>
>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>
>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-
>>> finland-159385
>>>
>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>
>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>
>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of systems
>> and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>
> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to
> sit this one out and let those people defend themselves.

The Ukranians seem to be doing a pretty good job of it so far.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:21 UTC

On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>
> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
> haven for the Taliban, eh?

B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground destroyed the
warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11. That worked fine, we should have
stayed with it.

Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we took care
of him and his family. And we did not invade Pakistan nor did we
overturn its government.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me> <t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me> <2u8a8hhi6s181f66qa2k787obsunm0s4qo@4ax.com> <t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me> <XnsAE9B936DF19taustingmail@85.12.62.245> <t63rhs$jt6$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:38:38 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:38 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63rhs$jt6$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>
>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a
>> safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>
> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.

Then why were they ongoing attacks the entire time we were in the
country, and how did they have enough resources to retake control
even as we were pulling out?

> That worked
> fine, we should have stayed with it.

No, it really didn't. These people have lifetimes of experience at
avoiding anything remotely like a conventional warfare attack.

That kind of approach just pisses them off, and encourages *more*
terror attacks. On US soil.
>
> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we
> took care of him and his family. And we did not invade Pakistan
> nor did we overturn its government.
>
And the Taliban picked a new leader and kept on attacking. And
retook control of the country before our last plane took off.

You really are a dense as Quaddie.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:02:32 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 18 May 2022 23:02 UTC

On 5/18/2022 4:34 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>>>> of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>>>> is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>>>> from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>
>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-
>>>> finland-159385
>>>>
>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>
>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of systems
>>> and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>>
>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to
>> sit this one out and let those people defend themselves.
>
> The Ukranians seem to be doing a pretty good job of it so far.

They are doing amazingly well. Much better than I hoped. Of course,
the country has been totally trashed which may have been Putin's goal
all along.

Of course, every one has been dumping smart weapons on the Ukrainians.
My former USMC son loved the fire and forget weapons. The TOW ???
missile with the half mile of wire on a spool was scary to him as your
Humvee had to remain perfectly still while it was traveling to the
target. That made you a target.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com> <t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me> <XnsAE9B9451544F6taustingmail@85.12.62.245> <t63tu9$tc$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Wed, 18 May 2022 23:07 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t63tu9$tc$1@dont-email.me:

> On 5/18/2022 4:34 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending
>>>>>> freedom beyond its own borders. One would think that the
>>>>>> experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be
>>>>>> drawn, I suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-t
>>>>> o- finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>>>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of
>>>> systems and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need
>>> to sit this one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> The Ukranians seem to be doing a pretty good job of it so far.
>
> They are doing amazingly well. Much better than I hoped.

I'm less surprised than many people than the Russian military is a
paper tiger, long past its prime. The Soviets never did have the
kind of robust military infrastructure the west has (and
totalitarianism brutally suppresses initiative, which is a key
element of it), and things have . . . not been well maintained
since the breakup.

> Of
> course, the country has been totally trashed which may have been
> Putin's goal all along.

No, Putin's goal is empire building. Given the hints of a serious
health issue, he may be thinking of what legacy he'll leave. If so,
he'll be bitterly disappointed.
>
> Of course, every one has been dumping smart weapons on the
> Ukrainians.

And they've been training for this since Putin grabbed Crimea. But
their success has at least much to do with the failures of the
Russians as anything Ukraine or their supporters are doing. The
russians have let the Soviet military machine rot in a field after
stripping off anything that could be sold on the black market. For
a long time.

> My former USMC son loved the fire and forget
> weapons. The TOW ??? missile with the half mile of wire on a
> spool was scary to him as your Humvee had to remain perfectly
> still while it was traveling to the target. That made you a
> target.
>
Every magic toy has its downside.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:51:43 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 00:51 UTC

On 5/18/2022 2:31 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that
>>>> seem
>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of
>>>> the
>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>>
>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>
>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>
>>>
>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>> them deal with it.”
>>>
>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>
>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>> doctrine that we have now.
>
> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe.  We, the USA, need to sit this
> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>
Isolationism doesn't work in the 21st century. It didn't work for most
of the 20th century either.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: The Horny Goat - Thu, 19 May 2022 02:45 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.

I can't speak for other countries but Canada had troops in Afghanistan
for more years than WW1 + WW2 + Korea taken together.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: ala...@sabir.com (Chris Buckley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: 19 May 2022 03:21:30 GMT
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 by: Chris Buckley - Thu, 19 May 2022 03:21 UTC

On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>> No, it isn't.
>>
>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>
>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>volunteering skills during that talk.
>
> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
> causes belli.

You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.

Please give your reasons for believing that you know much better than
Bill Clinton.

Chris

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nop...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:26:05 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 03:26 UTC

On 2022-05-17 3:52 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> ...
>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>
> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>
>
> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
> them deal with it.”
>
> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>
> Lynn

Yeah...

....you are the kind of guy who would abandon his allies.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:14:26 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 04:14 UTC

On 5/18/2022 7:45 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>> invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>> troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>
> I can't speak for other countries but Canada had troops in Afghanistan
> for more years than WW1 + WW2 + Korea taken together.

US as well.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 05:05 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:

> > I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.

> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
> haven for the Taliban, eh?

Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had anything to
do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda, eh?".

They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then, the Taliban
were the guys running the place.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 05:11 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:21:35 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:

> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.

I didn't know that.

I simply thought that while the CIA told Bush that it believed that Saddam
Hussein _probably_ didn't have any WMDs, they had also admitted they
weren't 100% sure of that. Given that Saddam Hussein _was_ known to be
obstructing the work of UN weapons inspectors at the time - I saw it on CNN
just before Bush ordered the invasion - Bush made the decision that even a
slight risk of Saddam Hussein having WMDs was an intolerable risk.

Which is certainly a very reasonable decision, say, from the point of view of
anyone living in Israel.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:09 UTC

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:11:13 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:21:35 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>
> > You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
> > stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
> > of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
> I didn't know that.
>
> I simply thought that while the CIA told Bush that it believed that Saddam
> Hussein _probably_ didn't have any WMDs, they had also admitted they
> weren't 100% sure of that. Given that Saddam Hussein _was_ known to be
> obstructing the work of UN weapons inspectors at the time - I saw it on CNN
> just before Bush ordered the invasion - Bush made the decision that even a
> slight risk of Saddam Hussein having WMDs was an intolerable risk.
>
> Which is certainly a very reasonable decision, say, from the point of view of
> anyone living in Israel.

My take is that Bill Clinton was onboard to slaughter
foreign Muslims needlessly, or just about any other
foreigners, when his political career called for him to
take that stance. As are most U.S. politicians.

In this, I think that I know better than Bill Clinton, morally.
But if I was in line maybe to be President, I guess I'd
be weighing the importance of having moral principles,
versus not having principles but being President.
I hope I'd still stick to principles. But what shall it profit
a man? Plenty.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:38 UTC

On 2022-05-17 8:29 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.  Twice.  He
>>> was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after
>>> that. He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack
>>> of volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>
>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from
>>> Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four
>>> year active duty.  By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they
>>> can now call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>
>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and
>>> had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with
>>> the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer.
>>> His answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on
>>> blue incident).
>>>
>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>
>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have
>> invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>
> Wrong.  Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.

Wrong.

> The
> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
> invoked the NATO treaty.

The involvement of SOME NATO countries doesn't make it a NATO venture...

....and you cannot produce the document that "invoked" the treaty...

....because it doesn't exist.

>  Not as many as the USA did but they did send
> troops.  Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>
> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
> probably Ukraine or Finland.  I have already sent mine.

Your complaint is with YOUR government getting the US involved.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:22 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:40 UTC

On 2022-05-18 8:41 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote in
> news:t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but other
>>>>>> inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a different
>>>>>> viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to
>>>>> -finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses
>>>>> to its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>> Afghanistan after that.  He and his First Sergeant had a four
>>> hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>>> talk.
>>>
>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for wartime
>>> duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>
>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated
>>> and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not
>>> reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily
>>> take no for answer.  His answer was two of his buddies were
>>> killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed
>>> his buddy in their FOB (green on blue incident).
>>>
>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>
>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have
>> invaded Ukraine.
>
> Heh. And if we hadn't elected a potato to replace him, it's even
> less likely.
>
>> Being part of a strong alliance is a way to
>> AVOID wars.
>>
> Indeed. But when the main member of that alliance is headed up by a
> potato, it isn't possible for the alliance to be strong.
>

You should have elected the guy who wanted to use nuclear weapons
against hurricanes...

....who thought that hurricanes might be created by a Chinese super-weapon...

....that guy?

:-)

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:45 UTC

On 2022-05-18 11:15 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
> news:oc8a8hdbv1cgt1c3o4uv9pb8dlv7k2q7l0@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06:11 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:53:04 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>>>> of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>>>> is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>>>> from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>
>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-
>>>> finland-159385
>>>>
>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>
>>> Russia is a threat to the US, and all countries that respect
>>> democracy and the rule of law. Russia clearly interfered in the
>>> 2016 and 2020 elections, and seems to have supported Brexit, and
>>> the various extreme right movements in Europe.
>>>
>>> Putin regards Western values as anathema, and tries at every
>>> turn to sow division and extremist hate.
>>>
>>> Russia delenda est.
>>
>> I think that's a bit extreme.
>>
>> For one thing, I don't think there's enough salt available.
>
> Salt is a significant component of human blood, IIRC.
>

You don't RC.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:47 UTC

On 2022-05-18 2:16 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 11:51 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.  Twice.  He was
>>>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that.
>>>>> He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>>>
>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from
>>>>> Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four
>>>>> year active duty.  By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they
>>>>> can now call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>
>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and
>>>>> had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with
>>>>> the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer.
>>>>> His answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on
>>>>> blue incident).
>>>>>
>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>
>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>>>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have invaded
>>>> Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>
>>> Wrong.  Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.  The
>>> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>>> invoked the NATO treaty.  Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>>> troops.  Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed
>>> name.
>>>
>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>>> probably Ukraine or Finland.  I have already sent mine.
>>
>> So you're saying that if there was no NATO Shrub wouldn't have lashed
>> out at Iraq and Afghanistan?  On what basis do you make that
>> contention?
>
> I think that GW Bush used NATO for cover for the invasion of Iraq in
> payment for Saddam Hussein trying to kill his father.  Without NATO he
> probably would not have done it, just continued shooting down their
> planes and bombing their anti-aircraft sites using HARMs.
>
> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.  That was NATO
> also.  Moving troops in made no sense when we already had bombed
> everything in sight back to the stone age.
>
> Lynn
>
>

You're utterly delusional.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:49 UTC

On 2022-05-18 2:32 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but
>>>>>>>>> other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a
>>>>>>>>> different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee
>>>>>>>> -t o-finland-159385
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after
>>>>>>>> the Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia
>>>>>>>> does not threaten the United States. As for any threat
>>>>>>>> that it poses to its European neighbors, let them deal
>>>>>>>> with it.”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>>> Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a
>>>>>> four hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during
>>>>>> that talk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>>>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>>>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>>>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for
>>>>>> wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why
>>>>>> he was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals
>>>>>> do not readily take no for answer. His answer was two of
>>>>>> his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi
>>>>>> soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue
>>>>>> incident).
>>>>>>
>>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>>>>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia
>>>>> wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong
>>>>> alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>>>> The British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in
>>>> because the USA invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the
>>>> USA did but they did send troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a
>>>> royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>>
>>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint
>>>> venture, probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent
>>>> mine.
>>>>
>>> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like
>>> 9/11. The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or
>>> here at home" has significant merit.
>>
>> I think that is a little too simplistic but,
>
> It's a long term factor, but it's a big one.
>
>> you could be right.
>
> I am.
>
>> There was lots of things going on in the middle east and we got
>> blamed for a lot of it even though we were not totally at fault.
>
> We were at fault for enough to piss off some violently crazy
> people.
>>
>> The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor in
>> 1941. We were messing with the Japanese because they were
>> messing with China. Whom, we were supporting and running large
>> gunboats up and down the Chinese rivers.
>>
> And? Not all US interests are confined to US soil. That has always
> been the case, and always will be. There are entire cultures that
> hate us and want to murder us all simply because we are not like
> them, and they aren't going away. Ignoring them signals that we are
> weak and encourages attacks.
>

No. There are no such cultures.

There may be a large number of PEOPLE within some cultures that feel
that way, but even there, I'd bet large that they aren't nearly in the
majority.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:53 UTC

On 2022-05-18 4:02 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 4:34 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>> parties that seem to think George Washington was right, and
>>>>>> America should stay out of the business of defending freedom
>>>>>> beyond its own borders. One would think that the experience
>>>>>> of two World Wars and the Cold War would have shown why this
>>>>>> is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I suppose,
>>>>>> from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-
>>>>> finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the
>>>>> Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not
>>>>> threaten the United States. As for any threat that it poses to
>>>>> its European neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back
>>>> there but without the forward basing and commonality of systems
>>>> and coordinated doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe.  We, the USA, need to
>>> sit this one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> The Ukranians seem to be doing a pretty good job of it so far.
>
> They are doing amazingly well.  Much better than I hoped.  Of course,
> the country has been totally trashed which may have been Putin's goal
> all along.

Why do you "hope" at all?

You've been going on and on about how it doesn't matter to you what
happens to them.

>
> Of course, every one has been dumping smart weapons on the Ukrainians.
> My former USMC son loved the fire and forget weapons.  The TOW ???
> missile with the half mile of wire on a  spool was scary to him as your
> Humvee had to remain perfectly still while it was traveling to the
> target.  That made you a target.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<t65ln3$jha$7@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73866&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73866

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:54:27 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:54 UTC

On 2022-05-18 8:21 p.m., Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>
>>> Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>> and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>
>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
>> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
>> causes belli.
>
> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.

Have you got the cites for those claims?

>
> Please give your reasons for believing that you know much better than
> Bill Clinton.
>
> Chris
>

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<3upc8hdjp2qjt8bai25fka11khorn9tg71@4ax.com>

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me> <t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me> <2u8a8hhi6s181f66qa2k787obsunm0s4qo@4ax.com> <t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:55 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:16:52 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 11:51 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 22:29:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>>>> United States. As for any threat that it poses to its European
>>>>>>> neighbors, let them deal with it.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.  Twice.  He was
>>>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that.
>>>>> He and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>>>
>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC) from
>>>>> Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he finished his four
>>>>> year active duty.  By promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they
>>>>> can now call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>
>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was activated and
>>>>> had to explain to a Marine Corps General why he was not reupping with
>>>>> the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals do not readily take no for answer.
>>>>> His answer was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on
>>>>> blue incident).
>>>>>
>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>
>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine and
>>>> dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia wouldn't have invaded
>>>> Ukraine.  Being part of a strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>
>>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures. The
>>> British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in because the USA
>>> invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the USA did but they did send
>>> troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>
>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint venture,
>>> probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent mine.
>>
>> So you're saying that if there was no NATO Shrub wouldn't have lashed
>> out at Iraq and Afghanistan? On what basis do you make that
>> contention?
>
>I think that GW Bush used NATO for cover for the invasion of Iraq in
>payment for Saddam Hussein trying to kill his father. Without NATO he
>probably would not have done it, just continued shooting down their
>planes and bombing their anti-aircraft sites using HARMs.

Why not? You think the US _needed_ NATO to take down Saddam?

>I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan. That was NATO
>also. Moving troops in made no sense when we already had bombed
>everything in sight back to the stone age.

OK, link the order from NATO to the US that instructed the US to
invade Afghanistan.

And on what date was this "bombing back to the stone age" completed?
Post that link as well.

Your knowlege of US military activities seems to be on par with
Quadi's knowledge of women.

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