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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: xkcd: Crepe

SubjectAuthor
* xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeAlan
|`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
| `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|   `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|    |`- Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|    +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeThomas Koenig
|    `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|     +* Re: xkcd: Cr?peThe Horny Goat
|     |`* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     | `* Re: xkcd: CrepeThe Horny Goat
|     |  `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   |+- Re: xkcd: CrepeAlan
|     |   |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   |+* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|     |   ||+* Re: xkcd: CrepeJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|     |   |||`- Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   ||+* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   |||+- Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|     |   |||`- Re: xkcd: CrepeThomas Koenig
|     |   ||`- Re: xkcd: CrepeThe Horny Goat
|     |   |`* Re: xkcd: CrepeJ. Clarke
|     |   | `- Re: xkcd: Crepepete...@gmail.com
|     |   +* Re: xkcd: CrepeJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
|     |   |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|     |   `- Re: xkcd: CrepeAlan
|     `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|      `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|       `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|        `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|         `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|          `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           | `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           |  `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|           |   `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeDimensional Traveler
|           `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|            `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|             `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
||`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| | | +* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeScott Lurndal
|| | | |`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJohn W Kennedy
|| | | `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJ. Clarke
|| | +* Re: xkcd: CrêpeGary R. Schmidt
|| | |`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
|| | | `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |  `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |   `* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |`* Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    | `* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |  `- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    +* Re: xkcd: CrepeLynn McGuire
|| | |    |+- Re: xkcd: CrepeThomas Koenig
|| | |    |`- Re: xkcd: CrepePaul S Person
|| | |    `- Re: xkcd: CrepeJohn W Kennedy
|| | `* Re: xkcd: Cre^peJoy Beeson
|| |  `- Re: xkcd: Cre^peJohn W Kennedy
|| +- Re: xkcd: CrêpeQuinn C
|| `* Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
||  `- Re: xkcd: Crêpepete...@gmail.com
|`- Re: xkcd: CrêpeJaimie Vandenbergh
+* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
| `* Re: Re: xkcd: CrêpeDorothy J Heydt
|  `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire
`* Re: xkcd: CrêpeDefault User
 `- Re: xkcd: CrêpeLynn McGuire

Pages:1234
Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t64e4h$b1d$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73847&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73847

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:38:55 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 03:38 UTC

On 2022-05-18 9:31 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>
>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>> back in the day.
>>>
>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>> businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>> they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>> VisiCalc".
>>>
>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>> IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>> were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>
>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>> a /business/.
>>
>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>> introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>> versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>> number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>> running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>
> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>
> But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is still
> around today.
>
> The IBM PC was a 16-bit machine. Well, an 8088 anyway. But pressure
> from the clones (once they stopped trying to be unique and actually
> /became/ clones) caused it to evolve to the 8086 and then to a 32-bit
> machine, and now a 64-bit machine. Whether a 128-bit version will ever
> appear I have no idea.
>
> And Apple now runs on processors developed for the IBM-PC clone
> market, which has long-since become simply the PC market.

Actually, there is only one Mac still being made that runs an Intel
processor: the Mac Pro.

All the other Macs (and iPads and iPhones) run processors Apple designed
themselves.

Apple Silicon

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t64ejk$jmk$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73848&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73848

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:46:58 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Thu, 19 May 2022 03:46 UTC

On 2022-05-18 9:49 a.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:31:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>>> back in the day.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>>> businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>>> they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>>> VisiCalc".
>>>>
>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>>> IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>>> were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>>
>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>>> a /business/.
>>>
>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>>> introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>>> versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>>> number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>>> running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>>
>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>>
>> But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is still
>> around today.
>>
>> The IBM PC was a 16-bit machine. Well, an 8088 anyway. But pressure
>>from the clones (once they stopped trying to be unique and actually
>> /became/ clones) caused it to evolve to the 8086 and then to a 32-bit
>> machine, and now a 64-bit machine. Whether a 128-bit version will ever
>> appear I have no idea.
>
> What IBM PC model used the 8086? There were the PC and XT which were
> 8088 and then the AT which was 80286.
>
>> And Apple now runs on processors developed for the IBM-PC clone
>> market, which has long-since become simply the PC market.
>
> Intel processors were chosen initially by IBM--they weren't "developed
> for the IBM-PC clone market", the IBM PC was developed around Intel
> processors.
>

Correct.

We have IBM's panic due to the growing success of the Apple II running
VisiCalc to thank for their use of mostly off-the-shelf components in
the design of the original IBM PC.

> AMD, Cyrix, etc re another story. But Apple doesn't use AMD
> processors.
>
> And Apple _now_ runs on processors developed by Apple for the Apple
> market. But perhaps while you were jerking your true-blue knee you
> missed the M1 chips.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

<t64gap$gqh$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=73850&group=rec.arts.sf.written#73850

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re:_xkcd:_Crêpe
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:16:45 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 04:16 UTC

On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the
>>>>>>> Peanut
>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>
>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>> expects that environment.
>>>
>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>> expression in the current context.
>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>
>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>
>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>> preventing actual sales.
>
> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
> website says nothing of a problem
>
Which website? If its the company's website why would you expect it
tell people about a problem?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<38f6181d-8b33-4aba-9da5-c5a955e732c0n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:42 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:39:57 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t63p89$7q6$1...@dont-email.me:
> > On 5/18/2022 11:54 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat
> >>> <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> >>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat
> >>>>> <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
> >>>>>> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants
> >>>>>>> and the like in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc
> >>>>>>> (awaiting a cry from the Peanut Gallery, “What’s
> >>>>>>> Visicalc?”).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand
> >>>>>> Apple II's back in the day.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early
> >>>>> 80s that businessmen were flocking to computer stores and
> >>>>> buying any computer they could get (all of them 8-bit
> >>>>> things) "so long as it ran VisiCalc".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so
> >>>>> annoyed the IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM
> >>>>> to create the IBM PC, were probably running VisiCalc. Or
> >>>>> maybe WordStar.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a
> >>>>> /hobby/ to a /business/.
> >>>>
> >>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981
> >>>> when they introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+
> >>>> Apples (mostly various versions of the II) by the end of 1980
> >>>> (one of them to me) and a large number of them WERE running
> >>>> Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely running spreadsheets
> >>>> by the time I finished business school in 1983.
> >>
> >>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and
> >>> other early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
> >>
> >> As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can
> >> confirm that it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the
> >> box, it didn't even support lower case.
> >>
> >> pt
> >
> > Huh. All of the six bit machines that I programmed on (UNIVAC
> > 1108, CDC 7600, etc) did not support lower case characters since
> > the lower case characters used the 7th bit in ASCII. But all
> > the eight bit machines that I used (IBM PC, DEC VMS, Prime 450 /
> > 750, IBM 370, etc) did support lower case characters. So the
> > Apple II should have supported lower case since Wikipedia says
> > that it is an 8 bit machine.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II
> >
> > "The video controller displayed 24 lines by 40 columns of
> > monochrome, uppercase-only text on the screen (the original
> > character set matches ASCII characters 20h to 5Fh), with NTSC
> > composite video output suitable for display on a TV monitor or
> > on a regular TV set (by way of a separate RF modulator)."
> >
> > Ah, the video controller did not support lower case.
> >
> I suspect that'w why he qualified it with "out of the box."

Yes, you could get aftermarket display cards that added
24x80 mixed case modes, but the on-board video was 24x40,
uppercase only (but it was possible to display both white-on-black
and black-on-white).

pt

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: xkcd:_Crêpe
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:43 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>
>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>> expects that environment.
>>>
>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>> expression in the current context.
>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>
>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>
>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>> preventing actual sales.
>
>I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>website says nothing of a problem

APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:45 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> >>><john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>> >>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>> >>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>> >>>
>> >>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>> >>>back in the day.
>> >>
>> >>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>> >>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>> >>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>> >>VisiCalc".
>> >>
>> >>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>> >>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>> >>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>> >>
>> >>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>> >>a /business/.
>> >
>> >While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>> >introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>> >versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>> >number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>> >running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>
>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>
>As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
>it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
>case.

That doesn't really relate to its being 8-bit though. My 8-bit CP/M
machine had no problem at all with lower case.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:50 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:42:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 11:54 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>>>> back in the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>>>> businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>>>> they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>>>> VisiCalc".
>>>>>
>>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>>>> IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>>>> were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>>>
>>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>>>> a /business/.
>>>>
>>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>>>> introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>>>> versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>>>> number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>>>> running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>>
>>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>>> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>>
>> As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
>> it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
>> case.
>>
>> pt
>
>Huh. All of the six bit machines that I programmed on (UNIVAC 1108, CDC
>7600, etc) did not support lower case characters since the lower case
>characters used the 7th bit in ASCII. But all the eight bit machines
>that I used (IBM PC, DEC VMS, Prime 450 / 750, IBM 370, etc) did support
>lower case characters. So the Apple II should have supported lower case
>since Wikipedia says that it is an 8 bit machine.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II

In what universe were the VAX, Prime 450, or IBM 370 8-bit? Because
they weren't in this one. Primes from the 300 series up were 16-bit,
VAX was 32-bit from the git-go. IBM 370 was 32-bit instruction/data
with 24-bit address.

>"The video controller displayed 24 lines by 40 columns of monochrome,
>uppercase-only text on the screen (the original character set matches
>ASCII characters 20h to 5Fh), with NTSC composite video output suitable
>for display on a TV monitor or on a regular TV set (by way of a separate
>RF modulator)."
>
>Ah, the video controller did not support lower case.
>
>Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:28 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 12:49:23 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:31:39 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

<snippo>

>>The IBM PC was a 16-bit machine. Well, an 8088 anyway. But pressure
>>from the clones (once they stopped trying to be unique and actually
>>/became/ clones) caused it to evolve to the 8086 and then to a 32-bit
>>machine, and now a 64-bit machine. Whether a 128-bit version will ever
>>appear I have no idea.
>
>What IBM PC model used the 8086? There were the PC and XT which were
>8088 and then the AT which was 80286.

I didn't mean to imply that IBM ever did an 8086. But I am reasonably
sure some of the early near-clones did. And the point was that the
competition from the clones drove the evolution of the PC.

Had IBM been left the only manufacturer, we would be using 8088-based
computers to this day.

>>And Apple now runs on processors developed for the IBM-PC clone
>>market, which has long-since become simply the PC market.
>
>Intel processors were chosen initially by IBM--they weren't "developed
>for the IBM-PC clone market", the IBM PC was developed around Intel
>processors.

The later ones were developed for the PC market. As were the clones of
/their/ chps; indeed, the computer I am using had an AMD processor.

>AMD, Cyrix, etc are another story. But Apple doesn't use AMD
>processors.
>
>And Apple _now_ runs on processors developed by Apple for the Apple
>market. But perhaps while you were jerking your true-blue knee you
>missed the M1 chips.

I admit to not being totally current on Apple's doings.

This is because I don't really care what Apple does.

Try to keep in mind that I was acknowledging the success of Apple, and
that they did, in fact, use Intel chips for a few years.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:29 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 11:22:33 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:3i7a8hdajjt3sfr5cu13hvedc93fmslhup@4ax.com:
>
>> But, yes, Apple was a major success story. Which is why it is
>> still around today.
>>
>Aside from things like the $150 million investment from Microsoft to
>bolster their claims they weren't an illegal monopoly.

I was very disappointed when they weren't broken up, having used OS/2
for some time and having found it quite nice.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<66sc8hlclbefaii2ncje0kk7liufsg0nis@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:36:10 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:36 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>
>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>
>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>> time and date.
>>>>
>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>
>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>
>> Stupid question time:
>>
>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>> Unicode, right?
>>
>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>
>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>
>No questions are stupid.
>
>We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>
>Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.

Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.

>I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>suck.

IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
standard.

Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.

I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
Although surely lower case is allowed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t660vo$k43$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 13:06:44 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:06 UTC

On 5/19/2022 10:50 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:42:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:54 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>> <john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
>>>>>>> back in the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
>>>>>> businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
>>>>>> they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
>>>>>> VisiCalc".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
>>>>>> IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
>>>>>> were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
>>>>>> a /business/.
>>>>>
>>>>> While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
>>>>> introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
>>>>> versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
>>>>> number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
>>>>> running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
>>>
>>>> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
>>>> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
>>>
>>> As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
>>> it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
>>> case.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> Huh. All of the six bit machines that I programmed on (UNIVAC 1108, CDC
>> 7600, etc) did not support lower case characters since the lower case
>> characters used the 7th bit in ASCII. But all the eight bit machines
>> that I used (IBM PC, DEC VMS, Prime 450 / 750, IBM 370, etc) did support
>> lower case characters. So the Apple II should have supported lower case
>> since Wikipedia says that it is an 8 bit machine.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II
>
> In what universe were the VAX, Prime 450, or IBM 370 8-bit? Because
> they weren't in this one. Primes from the 300 series up were 16-bit,
> VAX was 32-bit from the git-go. IBM 370 was 32-bit instruction/data
> with 24-bit address.
>
>> "The video controller displayed 24 lines by 40 columns of monochrome,
>> uppercase-only text on the screen (the original character set matches
>> ASCII characters 20h to 5Fh), with NTSC composite video output suitable
>> for display on a TV monitor or on a regular TV set (by way of a separate
>> RF modulator)."
>>
>> Ah, the video controller did not support lower case.
>>
>> Lynn

Sorry, 8 bit characters. You are correct about the other machines.

The Univac 1108 was 6 bit characters, 36 bit words, and I am not sure
about the addressing. Ours had 32K words code space and 32K words data
space.

The CDC 7600 was 6 bit characters, 60 bit words, and I am not sure about
the addressing. I am not sure how many words ours had, at least 64K
words. Maybe 128K words, it has been a long time.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t6613q$k43$2@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:08 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

We have to move to 64 bit (x64 / Win64). Watcom does not have 64 bit
compilers and linkers.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<t6616l$k43$3@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:10 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

C / C++ has wide characters, 16 bit.

Fortran has allowed lower case since Fortran 77. Maybe even some of the
Fortran 66 compilers.

Lynn

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:16:28 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: news.netcologne.de
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:16 UTC

J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> schrieb:

> In what universe were the VAX, Prime 450, or IBM 370 8-bit? Because
> they weren't in this one. Primes from the 300 series up were 16-bit,
> VAX was 32-bit from the git-go. IBM 370 was 32-bit instruction/data
> with 24-bit address.

You haven't heard of the IBM /360 RR instruction type, one half
word, 16 bit, then? It was used for arithmetic instructions
like ADD, and for instructions like BALR. The /360 also had
the SS instruction format with 48 bits.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:55 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:31:45 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:44:17 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:39 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>On Sun, 15 May 2022 21:02:04 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >> >>wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
> >> >>><john.w....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
> >> >>>>in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
> >> >>>>Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Yup - and Visicalc largely sold several hundred thousand Apple II's
> >> >>>back in the day.
> >> >>
> >> >>IIRC, an article, probably in BYTE, reported in the early 80s that
> >> >>businessmen were flocking to computer stores and buying any computer
> >> >>they could get (all of them 8-bit things) "so long as it ran
> >> >>VisiCalc".
> >> >>
> >> >>The small computers on desks, not made by IBM, which so annoyed the
> >> >>IBM salespeople who saw them and so caused IBM to create the IBM PC,
> >> >>were probably running VisiCalc. Or maybe WordStar.
> >> >>
> >> >>VisiCalc -- the program that changed microcomputers from a /hobby/ to
> >> >>a /business/.
> >> >
> >> >While true, IBM was rather late to the game by Aug 12, 1981 when they
> >> >introduced the IBM-PC. Apple had sold 100,000+ Apples (mostly various
> >> >versions of the II) by the end of 1980 (one of them to me) and a large
> >> >number of them WERE running Visicalc - not mine but I was definitely
> >> >running spreadsheets by the time I finished business school in 1983.
> >
> >> I believe that Apple II, like my trusty North Star Horizon and other
> >> early microcomputers, was an 8-bit machine.
> >
> >As an Apple ][+ owner who programmed in assembler, I can confirm that
> >it was most definitely 8 bit. Heck, out of the box, it didn't even support lower
> >case.
> That doesn't really relate to its being 8-bit though. My 8-bit CP/M
> machine had no problem at all with lower case.

PSP speculated that the Apple ][ was an eight bit machine. I simply confirmed
that fact. The Steves, for whatever reason, did not provide lowercase bitmaps for
LC characters. It was certainly capable of storing the full 255 different values.

There were some programs that used the HIRES graphic mode to supply a
console with upper and lowercase, but it ran very slowly, and looked like crap.
I used an add-on display board, which did much better.

One of my projects was as a developer of Apple ][ Kermit for Columbia University .
Since Kermit acted, in part, as a terminal emulator, lower case support was needed.
I added it in the base mode, using black-on-white for UC, and white-on-black for LC,
so it was usable without addons.

pt

Re: xkcd: Crepe

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.comics.strips
Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:01:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:01 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:

> Fortran has allowed lower case since Fortran 77.

Not in code (although it was probably the most widely implemented
extension). Lower case came in Fortran 90.

Character strings - these were introduced with FORTRAN 77, before it
was only non-standard Hollerith, which varied widely. You could put
lower-case characters in character strings, it was theoretically
non-portable, but by the time that F77 was implemented, I guess
that was a moot point.

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:57 UTC

On 5/19/22 12:16 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and
>>>>>>>> the like
>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the
>>>>>>>> Peanut
>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>
>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>
>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>
>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>> preventing actual sales.
>>
>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>> website says nothing of a problem
>>
> Which website?  If its the company's website why would you expect it
> tell people about a problem?
>
You can’t ignore a fundamental problem in a signature product and hope
to stay in business, especially when the product has been around for
decades.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: john.w.k...@gmail.com (John W Kennedy)
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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:59 UTC

On 5/19/22 11:43 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>
>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>
>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>
>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>> preventing actual sales.
>>
>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>> website says nothing of a problem
>
> APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.

Do you mean APL2 the language or the software product “APL2” sold until
last year by IBM?

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<srednZe5-Pr7XBv_nZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: John W Kennedy - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:14 UTC

On 5/19/22 12:36 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>
>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>
>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>
>>> Stupid question time:
>>>
>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>> Unicode, right?
>>>
>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>
>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>
>> No questions are stupid.
>>
>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>
>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>
> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>
>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>> suck.
>
> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
> standard.
>
> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>
> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
> Although surely lower case is allowed.

C99 added the use of Unicode escape sequences, and most compilers today
support direct use of Unicode.

Fortran is still hanging back, but gfortran can handle UCS-2.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:28 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:57 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 5/19/22 12:16 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and
>>>>>>>>> the like
>>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from
>>>>>>>>> the Peanut
>>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are
>>>>>> aberrations.
>>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's
>>>>>> currently
>>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>>
>>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>>> preventing actual sales.
>>>
>>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>>> website says nothing of a problem
>>>
>> Which website?  If its the company's website why would you expect it
>> tell people about a problem?
>>
> You can’t ignore a fundamental problem in a signature product and hope
> to stay in business, especially when the product has been around for
> decades.
>
Microsoft. :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: xkcd: Cre^pe

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 by: Joy Beeson - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:05 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:14:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a computer programmer, I find
> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.

No "universal code" that adamantly refuses to distinguish between
umlaut and diaresis is worth thinking about. The glyphs of the two
diacritics don't even resemble each other as much as "1" and "l" do.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:05 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:59:43 -0400, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/22 11:43 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:01:49 -0400, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained. What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it. He got his PhD from Princeton in three years
>>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and the like
>>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from the Peanut
>>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are aberrations.
>>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it was
>>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's currently
>>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog. There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>>> NARS2000. Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head.
>>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>>
>>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point? I knew they were
>>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>>> preventing actual sales.
>>>
>>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>>> website says nothing of a problem
>>
>> APL2 doesn't require a mainframe you know. Runs fine on Windows.
>
>Do you mean APL2 the language or the software product “APL2” sold until
>last year by IBM?

Both.

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<ifff8h5c2o2c2th1ect5fue9dpq07nni1m@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:13 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:10:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>>
>>>> Stupid question time:
>>>>
>>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>>> Unicode, right?
>>>>
>>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>>
>>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>>
>>> No questions are stupid.
>>>
>>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>>
>>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>>
>> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
>> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>>
>>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>>> suck.
>>
>> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
>> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
>> standard.
>>
>> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
>> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>>
>> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
>> Although surely lower case is allowed.
>
>C / C++ has wide characters, 16 bit.

As a data type, sure.

As something you can write code in ... well, I suppose it would depend
on the compiler (which would make it not portable).

>Fortran has allowed lower case since Fortran 77. Maybe even some of the
>Fortran 66 compilers.
>
>Lynn
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crepe

<thff8hlnf2ha9c2s64sd0a1c98lj1bgjjv@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: xkcd: Crepe
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:14 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:08:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 11:36 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:17:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 11:48 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:51:51 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:00 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/05/2022 06:14, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 12:35 AM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/05/2022 07:07, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 11:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2022 5:26 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/22 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Crêpe
>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.xkcd.com/2619/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I love crêpes !  My Dad, myself, my son, and three of my nephews
>>>>>>>>>>>> stood at a fancy crêpe stand and ate about 20 to 30 of them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paris by the Eiffel Tower back in 2009.  We had a lot more fun
>>>>>>>>>>>> than standing in that hours long line to ride the Eiffel Tower
>>>>>>>>>>>> elevator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And funky non-ASCII characters are tough on us programmers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2619:_Cr%C3%AApe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, this mess isn’t even a Unicode character. And, on my Mac, I
>>>>>>>>>>> can’t even fake it by putting a combining circumflex over a
>>>>>>>>>>> combining inverted breve over the e, though it ought to work in
>>>>>>>>>>> theory. (I tried both straight output to the command-line window
>>>>>>>>>>> and a trivial SwiftUI app.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the ê is not a Unicode character ?  Or are
>>>>>>>>>> you talking about the little hat over the e ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It’s not a proper Ê. It either E with an inverted breve above it (?)
>>>>>>>>> and a circumflex ^ above the inverted breve, or else it’s an E with
>>>>>>>>> a tiny A (or a Starfleet A badge or even a simple 2-D line drawing
>>>>>>>>> of Duke, the Java mascot) above it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you often find your hair being parted as the joke whooshes by???
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Cheers,
>>>>>>>>          Gary    B-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, I did not intend a joke here.  As a computer programmer, I find
>>>>>>> Unicode both fascinating and horrifying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> UNICODE??  It's a joke, Joyce.  (If only it was!!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I've been fighting with UNICODE (and incompetence/lack of
>>>>>> understanding) of UNICODE for decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only thing less (or wrongly) understood than UNICODE in computing is
>>>>>> time and date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>>         Gary    B-)
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in the middle of converting our software distribution of 1.3
>>>>> million lines of C++ and F77 from ASCII to Unicode (UTF-8). The
>>>>> conversion is not going well and we have yet to start on the Fortran code.
>>>>
>>>> Stupid question time:
>>>>
>>>> you mean that you are revising the code to read, store, and write
>>>> Unicode, right?
>>>>
>>>> not that you are rewriting the code itself in Unicode
>>>>
>>>> I /said/ it was a stupid question.
>>>
>>> No questions are stupid.
>>>
>>> We are updating our Win32 diagrammatic user interface C++ code (450
>>> KLOC) to be able read, store, and display UTF-8. We are converting from
>>> the ASCII Win32 API to the Wide Win32 API, which, we already supported
>>> in our OLE2 code and in some of our file handling code. Microsoft has
>>> been screaming at me and threatening me for years to do this.
>>> https://www.winsim.com/media/refinery.png
>>>
>>> Converting our mostly Fortran 77 (850 KLOC) calculation engine is
>>> turning into a freaking disaster. The first item is converting from the
>>> old 1995 Watcom Fortran compiler to the Intel Fortran compiler. I have
>>> already failed twice by crashing various aspects of the Ifort compiler,
>>> starting about 15 years ago. Intel fixed them for me after great
>>> periods of time but the integration with Microsoft Visual Studio is not
>>> very good, especially for mixed Fortran and C++. I am moving from my
>>> two pound hammer to my twenty pound hammer to make it happen.
>>
>> Too bad you couldn't continue with Watcom, but if you can't, you
>> can't. Perhaps different FORTRAN standards are involved.
>>
>>> I hope that we do not end up with very much code in Unicode. That could
>>> suck.
>>
>> IIRC, C pretty much defines it's standard character set, and, lo and
>> behold, it is 7-bit ASCII. So Unicode code would probably violate the
>> standard.
>>
>> Unless, of course, the standard I am referring to has been updated.
>> And not just by allowing 8-bit ASCII to accomodate the Europeans.
>>
>> I suspect FORTRAN would be, if anything, even more restrictive.
>> Although surely lower case is allowed.
>
>We have to move to 64 bit (x64 / Win64). Watcom does not have 64 bit
>compilers and linkers.

Sad but true.

Unless Jiri's 2.0 has made the jump.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: xkcd: Crêpe

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From: john.w.k...@gmail.com (John W Kennedy)
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 by: John W Kennedy - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:56 UTC

On 5/19/22 6:28 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:57 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>> On 5/19/22 12:16 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2022 6:01 PM, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/22 5:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:59:28 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/22 8:38 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 15:12:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 8:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:26:48 -0400, John W Kennedy
>>>>>>>>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/22 9:54 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <t5ncnu$jer$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My Dad used APL in the 1960s trying to control a refinery
>>>>>>>>>>>> cat-cracker
>>>>>>>>>>>> using an IBM 360.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I am certain that the refinery was not cracking felines.
>>>>>>>>>>> The ASPCA would have complained.  What does "cat-" stand for in
>>>>>>>>>>> this instance?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He kinda got it working and wrote his PhD Chem
>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering thesis on it.  He got his PhD from Princeton in
>>>>>>>>>>>> three years
>>>>>>>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good for him.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, APL was becoming very popular among accountants and
>>>>>>>>>> the like
>>>>>>>>>> in the prehistoric days before VisiCalc (awaiting a cry from
>>>>>>>>>> the Peanut
>>>>>>>>>> Gallery, “What’s Visicalc?”).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right now a debate above my pay grade at my current employer is
>>>>>>>>> whether to keep APL or move everything that is currently on APL to
>>>>>>>>> another platform.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was not even aware that there was a current APL compiler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While there have been APL compilers in the past, they are
>>>>>>> aberrations.
>>>>>>> APL has historically been an interpreted language and most APL code
>>>>>>> expects that environment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Especially since the ? operator (small circle over inverted-T),
>>>>>> “Execute” was added, which interprets a character string as an APL
>>>>>> expression in the current context.
>>>>>>> Current commercial implementations are APL+Win, APL2 (I think--it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> an IBM product and has been divested--I'm not sure that it's
>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>> being sold) and Dyalog.  There are also the open-source Gnu APL and
>>>>>>> NARS2000.  Those are the ones that come to me off the top of my
>>>>>>> head.
>>>>>>> Then there's the whole j universe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was only in 2021 that IBM sold APL2 to Log-On Software, which now
>>>>>> sells it as Log-On APL2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Log-On actually selling it at this point?  I knew they were
>>>>> supporting it, but I seem to recall they had some difficulty that was
>>>>> preventing actual sales.
>>>>
>>>> I can’t say; I haven’t had access to a mainframe since 1997. But the
>>>> website says nothing of a problem
>>>>
>>> Which website?  If its the company's website why would you expect it
>>> tell people about a problem?
>>>
>> You can’t ignore a fundamental problem in a signature product and hope
>> to stay in business, especially when the product has been around for
>> decades.
>>
> Microsoft.  :D

I loath Microsoft, but even they have not, I believe, withdrawn a
product for months while continuing to advertise it on their homepage
without a caveat.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor