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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsCharles Packer
|+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
|||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
||||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
|||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsTony Nance
||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
|`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | || `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |||   |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||   |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |||    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||| |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| |||  `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| || `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||  +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||    |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsNinapenda Jibini
 | ||| ||    | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    |   +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||    |     +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |     |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| ||    |     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| ||    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |   |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 | ||| |   |   `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 | |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsChris Buckley
 | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston

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Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:01:07 -0400
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:15:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 11:02 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 03:09:07 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:11:13 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:21:35 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>>>>> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
>>>>> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
>>>> I didn't know that.
>>>>
>>>> I simply thought that while the CIA told Bush that it believed that Saddam
>>>> Hussein _probably_ didn't have any WMDs, they had also admitted they
>>>> weren't 100% sure of that. Given that Saddam Hussein _was_ known to be
>>>> obstructing the work of UN weapons inspectors at the time - I saw it on CNN
>>>> just before Bush ordered the invasion - Bush made the decision that even a
>>>> slight risk of Saddam Hussein having WMDs was an intolerable risk.
>>>>
>>>> Which is certainly a very reasonable decision, say, from the point of view of
>>>> anyone living in Israel.
>>>
>>> My take is that Bill Clinton was onboard to slaughter
>>> foreign Muslims needlessly, or just about any other
>>> foreigners, when his political career called for him to
>>> take that stance. As are most U.S. politicians.
>>>
>>> In this, I think that I know better than Bill Clinton, morally.
>>> But if I was in line maybe to be President, I guess I'd
>>> be weighing the importance of having moral principles,
>>> versus not having principles but being President.
>>> I hope I'd still stick to principles. But what shall it profit
>>> a man? Plenty.
>>
>> Bill Clinton left office and politics on January 20, 2001. He wasn't
>> "in line to be President", he had already served the two terms that
>> were allowed him by the Constitution.
>
>He was still read in on national defense. All former presidents are.

Your argument was that Clinton supported the invasion of Iraq because
it would benefit him politically. You have not demonstrated what the
political benefit would be. Instead you made a pathetic effort to
change the subject.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Message-ID: <6k8d8h159odnk8scn65k2m92kc8ele2vsh@4ax.com>
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <vfd88hdcdcv32hlg67qp7v04tde6qihvsk@4ax.com> <t63ois$qp6$2@dont-email.me> <jlqc8h5m665vrp8g98426mlcr6utufrlvf@4ax.com> <t661qe$5ha$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:03 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:20:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>
>Not our war. Europe needs to defend itself.

So you want Russia to become strong enough to actually make a fight of
it?

>You know, when we dropped our army strength in West Germany from 300,000
>??? to less than 100,000 in 1995, we effectively left anyway. There is
>enough left for a good wienie roast and that is it.
>
>https://theconversation.com/the-us-military-presence-in-europe-has-been-declining-for-30-years-the-current-crisis-in-ukraine-may-reverse-that-trend-175595
>
>Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Message-ID: <1p8d8hpms5t4s0pcfhga1q5oi3dpj1fjtc@4ax.com>
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <1e6101d3-3e89-408e-91c4-b000ae306553n@googlegroups.com> <25b02147-713a-4ef8-8b94-a1fe2c27500an@googlegroups.com> <iitc8h9osbj0c02b6v9ifemg097a86sqrg@4ax.com>
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 by: J. Clarke - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:06 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:58:36 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:06:13 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Russia delenda est.
>>
>>I agree emotionally with the sentiment. (Although not the quote. Rome was
>>an *aggressor nation* against Carthage.)
>>
>>But Russia has nukes, so no one can destroy it. Instead, just as during the
>>long decades of the Cold War, we must remain eternally vigilant, with all
>>the free countries of the world united so that Russia cannot claim another
>>inch of territory.
>>
>>We failed to do this in Ukraine. We must not fail again.
>>
>>The appropriate step for the moment is: the United States, Canada, and
>>indeed all the members of NATO other than Turkey, should send troops to
>>the borders of Sweden and Finland with Russia, with the permission of those
>>countries, signing bilateral treaties with Sweden and Finland so as to give
>>them the _equivalent_ of full Article 5 protection even if they are never able
>>to join NATO.
>
>Or NATO could just eject Turkey,

By what means? There is no mechanism provided in the NATO treaty for
such "ejection".

>which (under Erdogan) wants to occupy
>a mediating position between Russia and the West anyway and has
>purchased a Russian AA system capable of providing telemetry on NATO's
>next-gen fighter, which Turkey is no longer a participant in creating
>(if I have remembered all that correctly), and admit Sweden and
>Finland.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
References: <babc2dfb-e2d9-4e5a-8610-cce93844f489n@googlegroups.com> <t6190c$tji$1@dont-email.me> <t61arr$crn$2@dont-email.me> <t61cpc$ndd$1@dont-email.me> <t61fi0$4c3$3@dont-email.me> <t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me> <2u8a8hhi6s181f66qa2k787obsunm0s4qo@4ax.com> <t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me> <XnsAE9B936DF19taustingmail@85.12.62.245> <d6e64162-ea96-4bae-b29d-9e352445880dn@googlegroups.com> <e5qc8hhvv0tmvbs0gnqp6aepod1b3egu98@4ax.com> <t661bj$k43$5@dont-email.me> <XnsAE9C765FEA5C5taustingmail@85.12.62.232> <t663qt$cbk$2@dont-email.me>
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Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 13:34:14 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:34 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t663qt$cbk$2@dont-email.me:

> On 5/19/2022 1:38 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t661bj$k43$5@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them
>>>>>> providing a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had
>>>>> anything to do with them providing a safe haven for
>>>>> al-Qaeda, eh?".
>>>>>
>>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then,
>>>>> the Taliban were the guys running the place.
>>>>
>>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been
>>>> very effective in destroying them.
>>>
>>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys
>>> could roam the country as needed.
>>>
>> Which stopped how many terror attacks? Zero.
>
> That was not the mission. The mission was to kill Osama Bin
> Laden.
>
Now you're moving goalposts.

Which won't surprise anyone, since you do seem likely to have -
eventually - realized how stupid you sounded before.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:55 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> > <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> >>> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
> >>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
> >>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
> >>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
> >>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
> >>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John Savard
> >>>>
> >>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
> >>>>
> >>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
> >>>>
> >>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
> >>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
> >>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
> >>>> them deal with it.”
> >>>>
> >>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
> >>>
> >>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
> >>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
> >>> doctrine that we have now.
> >>
> >> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
> >> one out and let those people defend themselves.
> >
> > And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
> Not our war. Europe needs to defend itself.
>
> You know, when we dropped our army strength in West Germany from 300,000
> ??? to less than 100,000 in 1995, we effectively left anyway. There is
> enough left for a good wienie roast and that is it.
>
> https://theconversation.com/the-us-military-presence-in-europe-has-been-declining-for-30-years-the-current-crisis-in-ukraine-may-reverse-that-trend-175595

Its odd to see the America First Committee revived after 90 years. Is Trump your new Lindbergh?
Isolationism worked real well in the 1930s, didn't it?

In the age of the internet, global trade, and ICBMs, American isolationism is utterly impractical.
We can't pull up the docks, plow the airports, and go hermit, ala North Korea.

We are engaged in the business of the world, whether we want to be or not.

pt

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 14:19:12 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:19 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>
>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground destroyed the
>>> warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That worked fine, we should have
>>> stayed with it.
>>>
>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we took care
>>> of him and his family.  And we did not invade Pakistan nor did we
>>> overturn its government.
>>
>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>
> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more exclusive club.
>
Only because the people they most want to use them on are just on the
other side of the mountain.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:21 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:49 AM, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-18 2:32 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but
>>>>>>>>>> other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a
>>>>>>>>>> different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee
>>>>>>>>> -t o-finland-159385
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after
>>>>>>>>> the Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia
>>>>>>>>> does not threaten the United States. As for any threat
>>>>>>>>> that it poses to its European neighbors, let them deal
>>>>>>>>> with it.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>>>> Afghanistan after that.  He and his First Sergeant had a
>>>>>>> four hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during
>>>>>>> that talk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>>>>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>>>>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>>>>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for
>>>>>>> wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why
>>>>>>> he was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals
>>>>>>> do not readily take no for answer.  His answer was two of
>>>>>>> his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi
>>>>>>> soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue
>>>>>>> incident).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>>>>>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia
>>>>>> wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong
>>>>>> alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong.  Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>>>>> The British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in
>>>>> because the USA invoked the NATO treaty.  Not as many as the
>>>>> USA did but they did send troops.  Shoot, Britain even sent a
>>>>> royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint
>>>>> venture, probably Ukraine or Finland.  I have already sent
>>>>> mine.
>>>>>
>>>> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like
>>>> 9/11. The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or
>>>> here at home" has significant merit.
>>>
>>> I think that is a little too simplistic but,
>>
>> It's a long term factor, but it's a big one.
>>
>>> you could be right.
>>
>> I am.
>>
>>>   There was lots of things going on in the middle east and we got
>>> blamed for a lot of it even though we were not totally at fault.
>>
>> We were at fault for enough to piss off some violently crazy
>> people.
>>>
>>> The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor in
>>> 1941.  We were messing with the Japanese because they were
>>> messing with China. Whom, we were supporting and running large
>>> gunboats up and down the Chinese rivers.
>>>
>> And? Not all US interests are confined to US soil. That has always
>> been the case, and always will be. There are entire cultures that
>> hate us and want to murder us all simply because we are not like
>> them, and they aren't going away. Ignoring them signals that we are
>> weak and encourages attacks.
>>
>
> No. There are no such cultures.
>
> There may be a large number of PEOPLE within some cultures that feel
> that way, but even there, I'd bet large that they aren't nearly in the
> majority.

I think the word "culture" needs to be defined for this sub-discussion
to have any meaning.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:20 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>> United
>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe.  We, the USA, need to sit this
>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>
> Not our war.  Europe needs to defend itself.
>
> You know, when we dropped our army strength in West Germany from 300,000
> ??? to less than 100,000 in 1995, we effectively left anyway.  There is
> enough left for a good wienie roast and that is it.
>
> https://theconversation.com/the-us-military-presence-in-europe-has-been-declining-for-30-years-the-current-crisis-in-ukraine-may-reverse-that-trend-175595
>
He said "after" Russia has won that war, when it is preparing to invade
North America.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:28 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:55 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 1:38 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t661bj$k43$5@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing
>>>>>> a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had
>>>>> anything to do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda,
>>>>> eh?".
>>>>>
>>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then,
>>>>> the Taliban were the guys running the place.
>>>>
>>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been
>>>> very effective in destroying them.
>>>
>>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could
>>> roam the country as needed.
>>>
>> Which stopped how many terror attacks? Zero.
>
> That was not the mission.  The mission was to kill Osama Bin Laden.
>
In order to prevent or at least delay further attacks on the US.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:51:57 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:51 UTC

On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>
>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground destroyed the
>>>> warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That worked fine, we should have
>>>> stayed with it.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we took care
>>>> of him and his family.  And we did not invade Pakistan nor did we
>>>> overturn its government.
>>>
>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>
>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more exclusive club.
>>
> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just on the
> other side of the mountain.

And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to ten tons.
Not very ICBM friendly.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:00:31 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:00 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:13:06 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>
>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had anything to
>>>> do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda, eh?".
>>>>
>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then, the Taliban
>>>> were the guys running the place.
>>>
>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been very
>>> effective in destroying them.
>>
>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could roam
>> the country as needed.
>
> Ok, tell us on what date a B-52 strike "took out" a "warlord army".

Shoot, there was even a book and a movie made about the CIA on the
ground and the B-52s in the air just weeks after 9/11: "Horse Soldiers:
The Extraordinary Story of a Band of US Soldiers Who Rode to Victory in
Afghanistan"
https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Soldiers-Extraordinary-Victory-Afghanistan/dp/1416580514/

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
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Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:31:43 -0700
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:31 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t66e5t$43v$3@dont-email.me:

> On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them
>>>>>> providing a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
>>>>> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That
>>>>> worked fine, we should have stayed with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and
>>>>> we took care of him and his family.  And we did not invade
>>>>> Pakistan nor did we overturn its government.
>>>>
>>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>>
>>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more
>>> exclusive club.
>>>
>> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just
>> on the other side of the mountain.
>
> And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to
> ten tons.
> Not very ICBM friendly.
>
ICBMs with that kind of payload have been built.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:32 UTC

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote in
news:t66cc1$gh8$2@dont-email.me:

> On 5/19/2022 7:49 AM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-18 2:32 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>> wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in
>>>>>>>>>>> *both* parties that seem
>>>>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America
>>>>>>>>>>> should stay out of the
>>>>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders.
>>>>>>>>>>> One would think that the experience of two World Wars
>>>>>>>>>>> and the Cold War would have shown why this is
>>>>>>>>>>> mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guaran
>>>>>>>>>> tee -t o-finland-159385
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years
>>>>>>>>>> after the Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO?
>>>>>>>>>> Russia does not threaten the United States. As for any
>>>>>>>>>> threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>>>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>>>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go
>>>>>>>> to Afghanistan after that.  He and his First Sergeant
>>>>>>>> had a four hour talk about his lack of volunteering
>>>>>>>> skills during that talk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal
>>>>>>>> (USMC) from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day
>>>>>>>> after he finished his four year active duty.  By
>>>>>>>> promoting him to non-commissioned officer, they can now
>>>>>>>> call him up for wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now
>>>>>>>> 38.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>>>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General
>>>>>>>> why he was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp
>>>>>>>> Generals do not readily take no for answer.  His answer
>>>>>>>> was two of his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to
>>>>>>>> shoot the Iraqi soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB
>>>>>>>> (green on blue incident).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to
>>>>>>> undermine and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that
>>>>>>> Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a
>>>>>>> strong alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong.  Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint
>>>>>> ventures. The British, French, Canadians, and others sent
>>>>>> troops in because the USA invoked the NATO treaty.  Not as
>>>>>> many as the USA did but they did send troops.  Shoot,
>>>>>> Britain even sent a royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint
>>>>>> venture, probably Ukraine or Finland.  I have already sent
>>>>>> mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like
>>>>> 9/11. The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or
>>>>> here at home" has significant merit.
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a little too simplistic but,
>>>
>>> It's a long term factor, but it's a big one.
>>>
>>>> you could be right.
>>>
>>> I am.
>>>
>>>>   There was lots of things going on in the middle east and
>>>> we got blamed for a lot of it even though we were not totally
>>>> at fault.
>>>
>>> We were at fault for enough to piss off some violently crazy
>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor
>>>> in 1941.  We were messing with the Japanese because they
>>>> were messing with China. Whom, we were supporting and running
>>>> large gunboats up and down the Chinese rivers.
>>>>
>>> And? Not all US interests are confined to US soil. That has
>>> always been the case, and always will be. There are entire
>>> cultures that hate us and want to murder us all simply because
>>> we are not like them, and they aren't going away. Ignoring
>>> them signals that we are weak and encourages attacks.
>>>
>>
>> No. There are no such cultures.
>>
>> There may be a large number of PEOPLE within some cultures that
>> feel that way, but even there, I'd bet large that they aren't
>> nearly in the majority.
>
> I think the word "culture" needs to be defined for this
> sub-discussion to have any meaning.
>
I believe that "meaning" is beyond Alan's ability to grasp. He'd
only try to understand the meaning of a word so that he can lie
about it.

You know that.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:51:59 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:51 UTC

On 5/19/2022 5:31 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:t66e5t$43v$3@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them
>>>>>>> providing a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
>>>>>> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That
>>>>>> worked fine, we should have stayed with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and
>>>>>> we took care of him and his family.  And we did not invade
>>>>>> Pakistan nor did we overturn its government.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>>>
>>>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more
>>>> exclusive club.
>>>>
>>> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just
>>> on the other side of the mountain.
>>
>> And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to
>> ten tons.
>> Not very ICBM friendly.
>>
> ICBMs with that kind of payload have been built.

By Pakistan ??? I highly doubt it.

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:00:20 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:00 UTC

On 5/18/2022 8:49 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 5/17/2022 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:30 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> cident).
>>>
>>> What does any of that have to do with the US belonging to NATO? Are
>>> you under the mistaken impression that those wars happened because a
>>> NATO member invoked the NATO treaty rather than because Shrub didn't
>>> think his dick was big enough?
>>
>> Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>
> No, they were not. Some members of the coalition were
> also NATO members, but NATO had nothing to do with it.
>
> "NATO as an organization had no role in the
> decision to undertake or conduct the campaign"
>
> https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm

"Edgar Buckley describes how NATO invoked Article 5 on 12 September
2001, 24 hours after the terrorist attacks against the United States."
https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2006/06/01/invoking-article-5/index.html

"Today, NATO is extremely active in Afghanistan. The United States is
more convinced than ever of the need to secure international support for
its actions against terrorism. And NATO is transforming its political
and military structures and strategies to deal more effectively with the
real security threats we face. Such developments would not have been
possible had the Allies not stood side by side at the outset of this new
security era."

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:18 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:58:43 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> Or NATO could just eject Turkey,

Turkey is sort of useful. If a new government arose there, we could
get it to repudiate the treaty with Russia that prevents it from denying
Russia any profit from its seizure of Crimea.

But ideally, Turkey should be moved to central Asia, somewhere near
Turkmenistan. The Armenian people from Lebanon should then have
the opportunity to return home to Asia Minor.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:23 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:21:06 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> Not our war. Europe needs to defend itself.

Europe needs to be effectively defended.

How well is defending itself working out for Ukraine?

Whether 300,000 or 100,000, the American troops in Germany
prevented it from being invaded. Having a similar force in Ukraine
would have prevented the current tragedy. Russia would just have
peacefully stayed within its borders.

It *is* your war if Russia gets to invade and conquer countries like France, Germany,
Italy, Norway, the Netherlands... because then China takes Taiwan and South Korea...
and the United States is all alone, with the possible exception of Canada and even
the United Kingdom.

Oh, and Japan. For a little while.

What part of it's your turn next don't you understand?

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:27 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:

> Sorry, John, that's simply another conspiracy theory - I would have thought you
> read enough to know better.
>
> There were no doubts expressed by any of the intelligence agencies (US,
> British and allies) that Iraq had some WMDS.
>
> There was complete agreement on Iraq having chemical WMDS.

What? I thought that the facts, as reported by the mainstream news
media, were that a heroic CIA employee revealed that the CIA told
Bush "no WMDs" and so Bush lied about WMDs to invade Iraq.

Except that those facts - as Valerie Plame herself admitted - had one
weakness. The CIA didn't tell Bush 100% absolutely no WMDs, just that
they didn't think there were any.

So without having to say that Valerie Plame and the mainstream news
media lied, I can point out that Bush didn't lie either - he was using his
Presidential discretion wisely to deal with an intolerable risk. Because
while Valerie Plame didn't _lie_, she didn't think things through properly.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Quadibloc - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:29 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:55:59 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Its odd to see the America First Committee revived after 90 years. Is Trump your new Lindbergh?
> Isolationism worked real well in the 1930s, didn't it?

It would have worked just fine, if FDR hadn't
bombed Pearl Harbor! :)

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: ala...@sabir.com (Chris Buckley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Chris Buckley - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:00 UTC

On 2022-05-19, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:50:40 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>
>> Sorry, John, that's simply another conspiracy theory - I would have thought you
>> read enough to know better.
>>
>> There were no doubts expressed by any of the intelligence agencies (US,
>> British and allies) that Iraq had some WMDS.
>>
>> There was complete agreement on Iraq having chemical WMDS.
>
> What? I thought that the facts, as reported by the mainstream news
> media, were that a heroic CIA employee revealed that the CIA told
> Bush "no WMDs" and so Bush lied about WMDs to invade Iraq.

Sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Check your cites. I know of no
revelations about chemical WMDs - all agencies were convinced of
Iraq possessed chemical WMDs

> Except that those facts - as Valerie Plame herself admitted - had one
> weakness. The CIA didn't tell Bush 100% absolutely no WMDs, just that
> they didn't think there were any.

Again, this was never said by the CIA. There was only debate about what
the CIA said about nuclear WMDs. Please give cites that say otherwise.

> So without having to say that Valerie Plame and the mainstream news
> media lied, I can point out that Bush didn't lie either - he was using his
> Presidential discretion wisely to deal with an intolerable risk. Because
> while Valerie Plame didn't _lie_, she didn't think things through properly.

Valerie Plame and her husband were concerned only with the nuclear WMD
question; something there was already much (undisclosed) doubt about -
the dissents about Iraq having an active nuclear program were
evidently confined to the appendices of the October 2002 report, which
received almost no attention.

Bush never claimed we should attack Iraq because of nuclear WMDs
(other people did). He claimed we should attack because of WMDs in
general, and there was complete agreement among the intelligence
agencies that Iraq had chemical WMDs at least.

It's very clear you didn't read the mainstream news carefully and
have therefore gone along with the conspiracy theory.

Chris

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:15:29 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:15 UTC

On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>
>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>
>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>
>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>
>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>
>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>
> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?

You do know that the USA is broke, right ? With the costs of Social
Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spiraling out of control, there is no
money to make war with.

BTW, are we talking about the same Russia that is getting its butt
kicked by Ukraine ? Would Poland, France, and Germany not push Russia
off the side of the continent ?

Lynn

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:55 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>> United
>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe.  We, the USA, need to sit this
>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>
> You do know that the USA is broke, right ?  With the costs of Social
> Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spiraling out of control, there is no
> money to make war with.
>
> BTW, are we talking about the same Russia that is getting its butt
> kicked by Ukraine ?  Would Poland, France, and Germany not push Russia
> off the side of the continent ?
>
Without the US nuclear umbrella?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 20:59:35 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:59 UTC

On 2022-05-19 9:52 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
> news:unsc8hdrv2oaaugggf98njk0f6j8b19glj@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 15:38:38 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:t63rhs$jt6$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing
>>>>> a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>
>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
>>>> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.
>>>
>>> Then why were they ongoing attacks the entire time we were in
>>> the country, and how did they have enough resources to retake
>>> control even as we were pulling out?
>>>
>>>> That worked
>>>> fine, we should have stayed with it.
>>>
>>> No, it really didn't. These people have lifetimes of experience
>>> at avoiding anything remotely like a conventional warfare
>>> attack.
>>>
>>> That kind of approach just pisses them off, and encourages
>>> *more* terror attacks. On US soil.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we
>>>> took care of him and his family. And we did not invade
>>>> Pakistan nor did we overturn its government.
>>>>
>>> And the Taliban picked a new leader and kept on attacking. And
>>> retook control of the country before our last plane took off.
>>>
>>> You really are a dense as Quaddie.
>>
>> Not to doubt your narrative or your conclusions, but
>>
>> -- the Taliban was the government in Afghanistan that was
>> shielding Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Ladin
>
> They really weren't different groups.

Yes: they really were and are.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:00 UTC

On 2022-05-19 11:13 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>
>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>
>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had anything to
>>> do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda, eh?".
>>>
>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then, the Taliban
>>> were the guys running the place.
>>
>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been very
>> effective in destroying them.
>
> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could roam
> the country as needed.
>
> Lynn
>

You don't even try to understand things before you blurt out your next
bit of nonsense...

....do you?

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:01 UTC

On 2022-05-19 11:15 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 11:02 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 03:09:07 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:11:13 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:21:35 PM UTC-6, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>>>>> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large
>>>>> quantities
>>>>> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
>>>> I didn't know that.
>>>>
>>>> I simply thought that while the CIA told Bush that it believed that
>>>> Saddam
>>>> Hussein _probably_ didn't have any WMDs, they had also admitted they
>>>> weren't 100% sure of that. Given that Saddam Hussein _was_ known to be
>>>> obstructing the work of UN weapons inspectors at the time - I saw it
>>>> on CNN
>>>> just before Bush ordered the invasion - Bush made the decision that
>>>> even a
>>>> slight risk of Saddam Hussein having WMDs was an intolerable risk.
>>>>
>>>> Which is certainly a very reasonable decision, say, from the point
>>>> of view of
>>>> anyone living in Israel.
>>>
>>> My take is that Bill Clinton was onboard to slaughter
>>> foreign Muslims needlessly, or just about any other
>>> foreigners, when his political career called for him to
>>> take that stance.  As are most U.S. politicians.
>>>
>>> In this, I think that I know better than Bill Clinton, morally.
>>> But if I was in line maybe to be President, I guess I'd
>>> be weighing the importance of having moral principles,
>>> versus not having principles but being President.
>>> I hope I'd still stick to principles.  But what shall it profit
>>> a man?  Plenty.
>>
>> Bill Clinton left office and politics on January 20, 2001.  He wasn't
>> "in line to be President", he had already served the two terms that
>> were allowed him by the Constitution.
>
> He was still read in on national defense.  All former presidents are.

Except Trump...

....who can't be trusted.

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