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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsCharles Packer
|+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
|||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
||||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
|||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsTony Nance
||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
|`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsRobert Carnegie
|`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | || `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |||   |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | |||   |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |||    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |||     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||| +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||| |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| ||| `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| |||  `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| || `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||  +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| ||    |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsNinapenda Jibini
 | ||| ||    | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| ||    |   +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| ||    |    `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | ||| ||    |     +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| ||    |     |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | ||| ||    |     `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| ||    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 | ||| | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||| |   | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |   |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 | ||| |   |   `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| |   +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | ||| |   | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | ||| +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | ||| `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsKevrob
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | ||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThomas Koenig
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsLynn McGuire
 | | | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 | | |+- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | | |`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | | `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 | |  `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDimensional Traveler
 | |   `* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |    `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsThe Horny Goat
 | +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||+* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsScott Lurndal
 | |||`- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
 | ||`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsPaul S Person
 | |`* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsChris Buckley
 | `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsJ. Clarke
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsQuadibloc
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootingspete...@gmail.com
 +* Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsAlan
 `- Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass ShootingsDavid Johnston

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Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<t673sn$u47$6@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:02:31 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:02 UTC

On 2022-05-19 11:55 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 1:38 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t661bj$k43$5@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing
>>>>>> a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had
>>>>> anything to do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda,
>>>>> eh?".
>>>>>
>>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then,
>>>>> the Taliban were the guys running the place.
>>>>
>>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been
>>>> very effective in destroying them.
>>>
>>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could
>>> roam the country as needed.
>>>
>> Which stopped how many terror attacks? Zero.
>
> That was not the mission.  The mission was to kill Osama Bin Laden.
>
> Lynn
>
>

Then that mission was a complete failure.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:03:07 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:03 UTC

On 2022-05-19 11:58 a.m., Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2022-05-19, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-18 8:21 p.m., Chris Buckley wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>>>> and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
>>>> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
>>>> causes belli.
>>>
>>> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>>> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
>>> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
>>
>> Have you got the cites for those claims?
>
> Of course, Alan - I would think you would know that by now.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/
> Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that
> Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out
> of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass
> destruction remained unaccounted for.
>
> Chris
>

Fair enough.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:16 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in news:t66hmf$r5p$1
@dont-email.me:

> On 5/19/2022 5:31 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t66e5t$43v$3@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them
>>>>>>>> providing a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
>>>>>>> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That
>>>>>>> worked fine, we should have stayed with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and
>>>>>>> we took care of him and his family.  And we did not invade
>>>>>>> Pakistan nor did we overturn its government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more
>>>>> exclusive club.
>>>>>
>>>> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just
>>>> on the other side of the mountain.
>>>
>>> And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to
>>> ten tons.
>>> Not very ICBM friendly.
>>>
>> ICBMs with that kind of payload have been built.
>
> By Pakistan ??? I highly doubt it.
>
They have little incentive to do so, since, as has been pointed
out, they could deliver the warheads to their most likely target
with a truck. But the technology isn't beyond them. Some of our
earlier missiles were pretty hefty (the Mk-24 weighed over 21
tons), too, when we were still inventing the rockets to carry them.
The Titan II was capable of carrying a W53 warhead, about 4 tons,
over 5,000 miles (and a Gemini spacecraft, at 3 tons, into orbit).
Building a missile that could carry a 10 ton warhead, using today's
technology, wouldn't be a big challenge.

The big challenge would likely be a reliable guidance system, no
the weight.

Lack of incentive is not the same as lack of ability.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 05:37:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:37 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>
> Not our war. Europe needs to defend itself.

Well, there's Alaska... if the US does not want to return it to
Russia peacefully.

https://www.adn.com/politics/2022/03/16/a-russian-lawmaker-wants-alaska-back-good-luck-with-that/

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:53 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:38:00 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> Well, there's Alaska... if the US does not want to return it to
> Russia peacefully.
>
> https://www.adn.com/politics/2022/03/16/a-russian-lawmaker-wants-alaska-back-good-luck-with-that/

Some Russians believe that Alaska had been rented to the United States for 99 years, says the article.

I can just imagine Russia promising "One country, two systems" in Alaska.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:08 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:51:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground destroyed the
>>>>> warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That worked fine, we should have
>>>>> stayed with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and we took care
>>>>> of him and his family.  And we did not invade Pakistan nor did we
>>>>> overturn its government.
>>>>
>>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>>
>>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more exclusive club.
>>>
>> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just on the
>> other side of the mountain.
>
>And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to ten tons.
> Not very ICBM friendly.

(a) What is your source for this information?
(b) Titan II payload was more than 3 tons.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:09 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:51:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 5:31 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t66e5t$43v$3@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 4:19 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 11:11 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 10:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:21:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:29 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them
>>>>>>>> providing a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> B-52s at 40,000 feet and a few CIA officers on the ground
>>>>>>> destroyed the warlords in Afghanistan after 9/11.  That
>>>>>>> worked fine, we should have stayed with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, Osama Bin Laden turned up in Pakistan later and
>>>>>>> we took care of him and his family.  And we did not invade
>>>>>>> Pakistan nor did we overturn its government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course not, they have nuclear weapons.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Pakistan does not have ICBMs.  That is an even more
>>>>> exclusive club.
>>>>>
>>>> Only because the people they most want to use them on are just
>>>> on the other side of the mountain.
>>>
>>> And the Pakistani nuclear weapons start at two tons and go to
>>> ten tons.
>>> Not very ICBM friendly.
>>>
>> ICBMs with that kind of payload have been built.
>
>By Pakistan ??? I highly doubt it.

What leads you to believe that it is a difficult problem?

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:11 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:00:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 2:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 13:13:06 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had anything to
>>>>> do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda, eh?".
>>>>>
>>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then, the Taliban
>>>>> were the guys running the place.
>>>>
>>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been very
>>>> effective in destroying them.
>>>
>>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could roam
>>> the country as needed.
>>
>> Ok, tell us on what date a B-52 strike "took out" a "warlord army".
>
>Shoot, there was even a book and a movie made about the CIA on the
>ground and the B-52s in the air just weeks after 9/11: "Horse Soldiers:
>The Extraordinary Story of a Band of US Soldiers Who Rode to Victory in
>Afghanistan"
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Soldiers-Extraordinary-Victory-Afghanistan/dp/1416580514/

In that case you should easily be able to obtain the requested date
from said book.

And the Taliban still controls the country, so rumors of their demise
seem to have been greatly exaggerated.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: jclarke....@gmail.com (J. Clarke)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:17 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 18:00:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 8:49 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 5/17/2022 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:30 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> cident).
>>>>
>>>> What does any of that have to do with the US belonging to NATO? Are
>>>> you under the mistaken impression that those wars happened because a
>>>> NATO member invoked the NATO treaty rather than because Shrub didn't
>>>> think his dick was big enough?
>>>
>>> Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>>
>> No, they were not. Some members of the coalition were
>> also NATO members, but NATO had nothing to do with it.
>>
>> "NATO as an organization had no role in the
>> decision to undertake or conduct the campaign"
>>
>> https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm
>
>"Edgar Buckley describes how NATO invoked Article 5 on 12 September
>2001, 24 hours after the terrorist attacks against the United States."
>
>https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2006/06/01/invoking-article-5/index.html
>
>"Today, NATO is extremely active in Afghanistan. The United States is
>more convinced than ever of the need to secure international support for
>its actions against terrorism. And NATO is transforming its political
>and military structures and strategies to deal more effectively with the
>real security threats we face. Such developments would not have been
>possible had the Allies not stood side by side at the outset of this new
>security era."

So what?

You really have something wrong with you if you think that NATO
dragged US kicking and screaming against its will into responding to
the 9/11 attacks.

Bush was going to attack _somebody_ and Iraq and Afghanistan got the
hits.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: J. Clarke - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:22 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 21:15:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>
>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>
>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>
>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>
>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>
>You do know that the USA is broke, right ? With the costs of Social
>Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spiraling out of control, there is no
>money to make war with.

I have been hearing that the USA is broke and can't afford to do
anything more than half a century now. What leads you to believe that
the US is "broke"? That it owes a debt that is astronomical compared
to whatever pittance you pull out of your little software business?

>BTW, are we talking about the same Russia that is getting its butt
>kicked by Ukraine ? Would Poland, France, and Germany not push Russia
>off the side of the continent ?

If they can do that then why are you so upset about the US belonging
to NATO?

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:39 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:02:36 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-19 11:55 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 5/19/2022 1:38 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:t661bj$k43$5...@dont-email.me:
> >>
> >>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
> >>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing
> >>>>>> a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had
> >>>>> anything to do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda,
> >>>>> eh?".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then,
> >>>>> the Taliban were the guys running the place.
> >>>>
> >>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been
> >>>> very effective in destroying them.
> >>>
> >>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could
> >>> roam the country as needed.
> >>>
> >> Which stopped how many terror attacks? Zero.
> >
> > That was not the mission. The mission was to kill Osama Bin Laden.
> >
> > Lynn
> >
> >
>
> Then that mission was a complete failure.

Yes, it was. It got close at Tora Bora, but the opportunity was
lost due to delays in the command chain. OBL lived for years
after that.

Pt

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:59 UTC

On 5/20/2022 7:39 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:02:36 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-19 11:55 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 1:38 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:t661bj$k43$5...@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>>>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
>>>>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing
>>>>>>>> a safe haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had
>>>>>>> anything to do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda,
>>>>>>> eh?".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then,
>>>>>>> the Taliban were the guys running the place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been
>>>>>> very effective in destroying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could
>>>>> roam the country as needed.
>>>>>
>>>> Which stopped how many terror attacks? Zero.
>>>
>>> That was not the mission. The mission was to kill Osama Bin Laden.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Then that mission was a complete failure.
>
> Yes, it was. It got close at Tora Bora, but the opportunity was
> lost due to delays in the command chain. OBL lived for years
> after that.
>
And trusting the local Afghan militias US forces were working with
actually wanted to capture or kill him.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

<t68ad1$4ki$2@dont-email.me>

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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:00 UTC

On 5/19/2022 9:00 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-19 11:13 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 10:57 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:29:39 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>>> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:t63no6$c1e$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why GWB moved troops into Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them providing a safe
>>>>> haven for the Taliban, eh?
>>>>
>>>> Minor typo. No doubt you meant "Couldn't possibly have had anything to
>>>> do with them providing a safe haven for al-Qaeda, eh?".
>>>>
>>>> They weren't providing a _haven_ for the Taliban; back then, the
>>>> Taliban
>>>> were the guys running the place.
>>>
>>> And still are, so Lynn's B-52 strikes don't seem to have been very
>>> effective in destroying them.
>>
>> The B-52s took out the warlord armies so that our CIA guys could roam
>> the country as needed.
>>
>> Lynn
>>
>
> You don't even try to understand things before you blurt out your next
> bit of nonsense...
>
> ...do you?

That's not how they are going to make America great again. ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:25 UTC

Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>>
>> Not our war. Europe needs to defend itself.
>
>Well, there's Alaska... if the US does not want to return it to
>Russia peacefully.

The ironic thing about that is the reason Russia sold Alaska to
the United States in the first place was to poke Britian in the eye
and quash British ambitions in the Oregon territory.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:29 UTC

Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>
>>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>>smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>>and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>volunteering skills during that talk.
>>
>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
>> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
>> causes belli.
>
>You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
>of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.

Bill Clinton wasn't president and didn't make any of the decisions leading
to the ill-considered and arguably illegal incursions into either Iraq
or Afghanistan.

What he said, or not, is an irrelevent diversion. Bush lied, and he
knew it was a lie.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:18 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:49:35 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-18 2:32 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:t63o45$j68$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 10:43 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:t61p7g$rur$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 7:45 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both*
>>>>>>>>>> parties that seem
>>>>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should
>>>>>>>>>> stay out of the
>>>>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One
>>>>>>>>>> would think that the experience of two World Wars and the
>>>>>>>>>> Cold War would have shown why this is mistaken... but
>>>>>>>>>> other inferences can be drawn, I suppose, from a
>>>>>>>>>> different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee
>>>>>>>>> -t o-finland-159385
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after
>>>>>>>>> the Cold War ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia
>>>>>>>>> does not threaten the United States. As for any threat
>>>>>>>>> that it poses to its European neighbors, let them deal
>>>>>>>>> with it.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a very expansive answer.  Why not ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's send your kids then.  Mine went to Iraq already.
>>>>>>> Twice.  He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>>>> Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a
>>>>>>> four hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during
>>>>>>> that talk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He paid for that by getting his promotion to Corporal (USMC)
>>>>>>> from Lance Corporal delayed for a year, the day after he
>>>>>>> finished his four year active duty.  By promoting him to
>>>>>>> non-commissioned officer, they can now call him up for
>>>>>>> wartime duty until he is 45.  He is now 38.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After his four years of inactive reserve duty, he was
>>>>>>> activated and had to explain to a Marine Corps General why
>>>>>>> he was not reupping with the Corps.  Marine Corp Generals
>>>>>>> do not readily take no for answer. His answer was two of
>>>>>>> his buddies were killed in Iraq.  He had to shoot the Iraqi
>>>>>>> soldier who killed his buddy in their FOB (green on blue
>>>>>>> incident).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, all the Middle East adventures weren't NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, if Trump hadn't spent four years trying to undermine
>>>>>> and dismantle NATO there is a good chance that Russia
>>>>>> wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Being part of a strong
>>>>>> alliance is a way to AVOID wars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were NATO joint ventures.
>>>>> The British, French, Canadians, and others sent troops in
>>>>> because the USA invoked the NATO treaty. Not as many as the
>>>>> USA did but they did send troops. Shoot, Britain even sent a
>>>>> royal grandchild under an assumed name.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still say, lets send your kids to the next NATO joint
>>>>> venture, probably Ukraine or Finland. I have already sent
>>>>> mine.
>>>>>
>>>> Lack of involvement in foreign affairs leads to things like
>>>> 9/11. The philosophy of "do we want to fight them there, or
>>>> here at home" has significant merit.
>>>
>>> I think that is a little too simplistic but,
>>
>> It's a long term factor, but it's a big one.
>>
>>> you could be right.
>>
>> I am.
>>
>>> There was lots of things going on in the middle east and we got
>>> blamed for a lot of it even though we were not totally at fault.
>>
>> We were at fault for enough to piss off some violently crazy
>> people.
>>>
>>> The previous major involvement on USA soil was Pearl Harbor in
>>> 1941. We were messing with the Japanese because they were
>>> messing with China. Whom, we were supporting and running large
>>> gunboats up and down the Chinese rivers.
>>>
>> And? Not all US interests are confined to US soil. That has always
>> been the case, and always will be. There are entire cultures that
>> hate us and want to murder us all simply because we are not like
>> them, and they aren't going away. Ignoring them signals that we are
>> weak and encourages attacks.
>>
>
>No. There are no such cultures.
>
>There may be a large number of PEOPLE within some cultures that feel
>that way, but even there, I'd bet large that they aren't nearly in the
>majority.

Perhaps "sub-cultures" would be better, since they are clearly more
than just a bunch of separate individuals.

As the majority, if it tolerates and protects them, then eventually
the larger culture will become co-responsible with the sub-culture for
their bad behavior.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:29:27 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:29 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:55:48 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:v1tc8h9p4iq13ch1q1eeslmm15blihvreq@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 08:47:19 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>>news:8N6hK.4308$NMxb.2283@fx02.iad:
>>>
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice.
>>>>>He was smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to
>>>>>Afghanistan after that. He and his First Sergeant had a four
>>>>>hour talk about his lack of volunteering skills during that
>>>>>talk.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP
>>>> that invaded IRAQ specifically Dick and George after lying
>>>> through their teeth about the causes belli.
>>>>
>>>I'm more of the opinion they were lied *to* by intelligence
>>>people who were too eager to please, and believed (at the time,
>>>at least) what they were saying.
>>
>> I guess you missed the part where Vice President Halliburton (a
>> wholly owned subidiary of the corporation) /hand-picked/ the
>> Intel he wanted to see and ignored the actual analysts
>> conclusions.
>
>And? That such intel was available *to* pick was a failure of the
>intelligence community.
You may want to cogitate on the difference between "intel" and
"analysis". They are not the same thing.

The analysts only "failure" was to not physically block him. Of
course, he was the VP at the time, no doubt with Secret Service agents
in tow.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:30 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:20:04 -0700 (PDT), Ross Presser
<rpresser@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:15:35 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 11:02 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> > Bill Clinton left office and politics on January 20, 2001. He wasn't
>> > "in line to be President", he had already served the two terms that
>> > were allowed him by the Constitution.
>> He was still read in on national defense. All former presidents are.
>
>Donald J. Trump is not. He wasn't even interested in briefings
>while he was in office; now that he's out, he gets no briefings.

That's because the appropriate recipient would be Vlad Putin, Trump's
controller.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:39:41 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:39 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:22:13 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 May 2022 21:15:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties that seem
>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out of the
>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would think
>>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the United
>>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors, let
>>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>>
>>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe. We, the USA, need to sit this
>>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>>
>>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>>
>>You do know that the USA is broke, right ? With the costs of Social
>>Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spiraling out of control, there is no
>>money to make war with.
>
>I have been hearing that the USA is broke and can't afford to do
>anything more than half a century now. What leads you to believe that
>the US is "broke"? That it owes a debt that is astronomical compared
>to whatever pittance you pull out of your little software business?
>
>>BTW, are we talking about the same Russia that is getting its butt
>>kicked by Ukraine ? Would Poland, France, and Germany not push Russia
>>off the side of the continent ?
>
>If they can do that then why are you so upset about the US belonging
>to NATO?

I suspect it is part of the long-term Republican goal of destroying
Social Security and Medicare.

That is, after all, why they have been pumping up the National Debt
all these years: in the hopes of one day being able to leverage it to
achieve their goal.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:41:18 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:41 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:06:45 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:58:36 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:06:13 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Russia delenda est.
>>>
>>>I agree emotionally with the sentiment. (Although not the quote. Rome was
>>>an *aggressor nation* against Carthage.)
>>>
>>>But Russia has nukes, so no one can destroy it. Instead, just as during the
>>>long decades of the Cold War, we must remain eternally vigilant, with all
>>>the free countries of the world united so that Russia cannot claim another
>>>inch of territory.
>>>
>>>We failed to do this in Ukraine. We must not fail again.
>>>
>>>The appropriate step for the moment is: the United States, Canada, and
>>>indeed all the members of NATO other than Turkey, should send troops to
>>>the borders of Sweden and Finland with Russia, with the permission of those
>>>countries, signing bilateral treaties with Sweden and Finland so as to give
>>>them the _equivalent_ of full Article 5 protection even if they are never able
>>>to join NATO.
>>
>>Or NATO could just eject Turkey,
>
>By what means? There is no mechanism provided in the NATO treaty for
>such "ejection".

Too bad.

We'll just have to see how this works out.

>>which (under Erdogan) wants to occupy
>>a mediating position between Russia and the West anyway and has
>>purchased a Russian AA system capable of providing telemetry on NATO's
>>next-gen fighter, which Turkey is no longer a participant in creating
>>(if I have remembered all that correctly), and admit Sweden and
>>Finland.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 16:57:51 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:57 UTC

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> schrieb:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:20:04 -0700 (PDT), Ross Presser
><rpresser@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:15:35 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 11:02 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> > Bill Clinton left office and politics on January 20, 2001. He wasn't
>>> > "in line to be President", he had already served the two terms that
>>> > were allowed him by the Constitution.
>>> He was still read in on national defense. All former presidents are.
>>
>>Donald J. Trump is not. He wasn't even interested in briefings
>>while he was in office; now that he's out, he gets no briefings.
>
> That's because the appropriate recipient would be Vlad Putin, Trump's
> controller.

Something doesn't ring right here.

Trump has been berating Germany for its dependence on Russian gas.
See, for example,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-pipeline/trump-lashes-germany-over-gas-pipeline-deal-calls-it-russias-captive-idUSKBN1K10VI

where he is quoted as saying Germany being a "captive to Russia"
and is qouted as saying in 2018 to Jens Stoltenberg, NATO
Secretary-General,

"Germany will have almost 70 percent of their country controlled
by Russia with natural gas. You tell me, is that appropriate?"

We are now learing the hard way that Trump's analysis was correct,
and that the analysis of a long progression of German governments,
including those of Merkel and Schröder, was wrong.

Had Germany taken heed of Trump's words, we would not be in the
difficult situation we are in today, and Russia would now be
minus one very critical lever over Western Europe - it is not
possible to impose sanctions against Russia which whould _really_
hurt its cash flow because Europe would suffer worse than Russia,
at least in the short term.

If Trump was really controlled by Russia, then he could simply
have stayed calm on than particular subject.

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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From: ala...@sabir.com (Chris Buckley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
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 by: Chris Buckley - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:01 UTC

On 2022-05-20, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>>On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>
>>>>That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>>
>>>>Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>>>smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>>>and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>>volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>
>>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
>>> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
>>> causes belli.
>>
>>You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>>stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
>>of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
>
> Bill Clinton wasn't president and didn't make any of the decisions leading
> to the ill-considered and arguably illegal incursions into either Iraq
> or Afghanistan.
>
> What he said, or not, is an irrelevant diversion. Bush lied, and he
> knew it was a lie.

I see. So the opinion of an ex-President who had access to the classified
information about WMDs and Iraq for almost a decade is irrelevant compared
to the opinion of a random person on the internet. Silly me...

Please give your cites to what Bush lied about and that he knew it was
a lie.

That Iraq had chemical WMDs and a biological WMD program was the
consensus opinion of all the intelligence agencies in the 1996-2002
time frame. The nuclear program was thought to exist but was more
controversial. Perhaps Bush shouldn't have mentioned the existence of
some evidence of a nuclear program, but he did not emphasize it
throughout the war consideration period. The stated reason to go to
war was the danger of all kinds of WMDs, and the existence of Iraqi
WMDs was solidly believed by all agencies of the US and its allies.
Were there reasons in addition to WMD to go to war? Absolutely, but
was Bush lying by not mentioning them?

Some Democrats like Kerry (who had access to the classified report
including dissents) were much more concerned about nuclear WMDs than
Bush. Kerry stated "All US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is
seeking nuclear weapons" (Oct,2002). That's a much stronger
statement than Bush ever made. Was Kerry lying?

The Washington Post (my local paper) last looked at the question in
2019 (that I know of, at least). Despite valiant efforts, they were
unable to come up with anything concrete that Bush said or did. The
best they could do was come up with "excessive hype" by both Democrats
and Republicans.

Can you do better?

Chris

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:10 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:57:56 AM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> We are now learing the hard way that Trump's analysis was correct,
> and that the analysis of a long progression of German governments,
> including those of Merkel and Schröder, was wrong.

This is true.

While one could argue that Donald Trump had to "make it look good",
so that it wasn't _obvious_ he was working for Russia - and addressing
this issue with Germany was safe, as it was clear there was no risk of
Germany following his advice - that is stretching things a bit.

We do know, for a fact, that his last bankruptcy didn't stop him from
being a rich man because is last bailout afterwards came from Russian
oligarchs. That is suspicious, but not conclusive proof.

John Savard

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=74037&group=rec.arts.sf.written#74037

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 12:32:21 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:32 UTC

On 2022-05-20 12:01 p.m., Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2022-05-20, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>>> On 2022-05-18, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:24 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 3:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a very expansive answer. Why not ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's send your kids then. Mine went to Iraq already. Twice. He was
>>>>> smart enough to refuse to volunteer to go to Afghanistan after that. He
>>>>> and his First Sergeant had a four hour talk about his lack of
>>>>> volunteering skills during that talk.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn, Iraq had nothing to do with NATO. That was the US GOP that invaded IRAQ
>>>> specifically Dick and George after lying through their teeth about the
>>>> causes belli.
>>>
>>> You do realize that Bill Clinton supported the war declaration and has
>>> stated that Bush went to war out of a genuine belief that large quantities
>>> of weapons of mass destruction remain unaccounted for.
>>
>> Bill Clinton wasn't president and didn't make any of the decisions leading
>> to the ill-considered and arguably illegal incursions into either Iraq
>> or Afghanistan.
>>
>> What he said, or not, is an irrelevant diversion. Bush lied, and he
>> knew it was a lie.
>
> I see. So the opinion of an ex-President who had access to the classified
> information about WMDs and Iraq for almost a decade is irrelevant compared
> to the opinion of a random person on the internet. Silly me...

Sorry, but he had access to what the administration at that time wanted
to let him know.

>
> Please give your cites to what Bush lied about and that he knew it was
> a lie.
>
> That Iraq had chemical WMDs and a biological WMD program was the
> consensus opinion of all the intelligence agencies in the 1996-2002
> time frame. The nuclear program was thought to exist but was more
> controversial. Perhaps Bush shouldn't have mentioned the existence of
> some evidence of a nuclear program, but he did not emphasize it
> throughout the war consideration period. The stated reason to go to
> war was the danger of all kinds of WMDs, and the existence of Iraqi
> WMDs was solidly believed by all agencies of the US and its allies.
> Were there reasons in addition to WMD to go to war? Absolutely, but
> was Bush lying by not mentioning them?
>
> Some Democrats like Kerry (who had access to the classified report
> including dissents) were much more concerned about nuclear WMDs than
> Bush. Kerry stated "All US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is
> seeking nuclear weapons" (Oct,2002). That's a much stronger
> statement than Bush ever made. Was Kerry lying?
>
> The Washington Post (my local paper) last looked at the question in
> 2019 (that I know of, at least). Despite valiant efforts, they were
> unable to come up with anything concrete that Bush said or did. The
> best they could do was come up with "excessive hype" by both Democrats
> and Republicans.
>
> Can you do better?
>
> Chris

Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=74040&group=rec.arts.sf.written#74040

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: [OT] Two Recent Mass Shootings
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 14:55:44 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:55 UTC

On 5/19/2022 10:55 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 7:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 11:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31:08 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/17/2022 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:52:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/16/2022 11:41 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Not that there aren't Americans on the fringe in *both* parties
>>>>>>> that seem
>>>>>>> to think George Washington was right, and America should stay out
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> business of defending freedom beyond its own borders. One would
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> that the experience of two World Wars and the Cold War would have
>>>>>>> shown why this is mistaken... but other inferences can be drawn, I
>>>>>>> suppose, from a different viewpoint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Why Would US Give a War Guarantee — to Finland?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://buchanan.org/blog/why-would-us-give-a-war-guarantee-to-finland-159385
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “A basic question needs answering: Why, 30 years after the Cold War
>>>>>> ended, are we still expanding NATO? Russia does not threaten the
>>>>>> United
>>>>>> States. As for any threat that it poses to its European neighbors,
>>>>>> let
>>>>>> them deal with it.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is time for the USA to leave NATO.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then the Russians start digesting the EU and we're back there but
>>>>> without the forward basing and commonality of systems and coordinated
>>>>> doctrine that we have now.
>>>>
>>>> We already fought WWI and WWII in Europe.  We, the USA, need to sit
>>>> this
>>>> one out and let those people defend themselves.
>>>
>>> And after Russia controls the entirety of Europe then what?
>>
>> You do know that the USA is broke, right ?  With the costs of Social
>> Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spiraling out of control, there is no
>> money to make war with.
>>
>> BTW, are we talking about the same Russia that is getting its butt
>> kicked by Ukraine ?  Would Poland, France, and Germany not push Russia
>> off the side of the continent ?
>>
> Without the US nuclear umbrella?

The UK and France have many nuclear weapons including ICBMs in
submarines. The UK even has several modified Trident submarines but
they use their own boomer sub.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_Submarine_Service

I am not sure about Germany.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/11/19/nuclear-weapons-debate-in-germany-touches-a-raw-nato-nerve/

I doubt Poland has nuclear weapons.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10682921/Poland-says-open-putting-nuclear-weapons-soil-leaders-American-troops.html

Israel got their nuclear breeder reactors (they have three) from the
French. Not sure if they got their nuclear weapons from the French.
Israel has six German built Dolphin submarines that carry 12 ??? nuclear
ICBMS each.

Lynn

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