Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
[...]
The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html

#pennyspoems

George J. Dance wrote:
>
> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
> [...]
> The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
> Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
> And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
> [...]
> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html

> #pennyspoems

This one is an exceptionally beautiful work of poetry, G.D.

Thanks for posting...!

On 2023-03-04 3:29 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
>> [...]
>> The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>> Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>> And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
>> [...]
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html
>
>> #pennyspoems
>
> This one is an exceptionally beautiful work of poetry, G.D.
>
> Thanks for posting...!

Thanks for bumping it. You got me to go back and reread the sonnet.

I was rushed the first time I read it, trying to get together a roster
of poems for March. The only one I had a firm date for was the other
Patchen poem I mentioned, which I'm blogging today -- it's set in
winter, and I needed another poem set in winter. But none of the March
poems I'd found online fit; they were all about the coming of spring in
some fashion, and it's not here yet. (There's still snow on the ground,
and we had what I hope is out last blizzard on Friday.) So I went
digging for another winter poem.

Lampman's a favorite of mine, so I started with him, and I was lucky to
find this sonnet in his first book. I used it, and thought little of it
at the time.

Now, thanks to you, I've reread it, and it; and I have to agree and
second "exceptionally beautiful". Each half of the octet; the four lines
about the daisies and the four lines aboutthe buttercups, could be a
little poem in itself; together they're like a bouquet. And while the
blog's had lots of flower poems in spring and fall, this one's in the
middle of winter, surrounded by poems about ice and snow, which makes it
even more delightful (like seeing flowers growing in winter).

There's a lot of skill reinforcing the sense of beauty. I won't ramble
on about everything, but I'd like to point out how he uses the octet's
only four-syllable words, "beatified" and "preoccupied", to close off
each of its quatrains -- it adds a real touch of elegance. And I'm sure
he did that deliberately, because he then goes on to complete the
sestet, and the whole sonnet, with another four-syllable word, "realities."

Lampman's a

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:51:55 AM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:
>> On 2023-03-04 3:29 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
>> >> [...]
>> >> The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>> >> Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>> >> And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
>> >> [...]
>> >> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html
>> >
>> >> #pennyspoems
>> >
>> > This one is an exceptionally beautiful work of poetry, G.D.
>> >
>> > Thanks for posting...!
>> Thanks for bumping it. You got me to go back and reread the sonnet.
>>
>> I was rushed the first time I read it, trying to get together a roster
>> of poems for March. The only one I had a firm date for was the other
>> Patchen poem I mentioned, which I'm blogging today -- it's set in
>> winter, and I needed another poem set in winter. But none of the March
>> poems I'd found online fit; they were all about the coming of spring in
>> some fashion, and it's not here yet. (There's still snow on the ground,
>> and we had what I hope is out last blizzard on Friday.) So I went
>> digging for another winter poem.
>>
>> Lampman's a favorite of mine, so I started with him, and I was lucky to

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Obviously it was simply a false start on the paragraph above... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> find this sonnet in his first book. I used it, and thought little of it
>> at the time.
>>
>> Now, thanks to you, I've reread it, and it; and I have to agree and
>> second "exceptionally beautiful". Each half of the octet; the four lines
>> about the daisies and the four lines aboutthe buttercups, could be a
>> little poem in itself; together they're like a bouquet. And while the
>> blog's had lots of flower poems in spring and fall, this one's in the
>> middle of winter, surrounded by poems about ice and snow, which makes it
>> even more delightful (like seeing flowers growing in winter).
>>
>> There's a lot of skill reinforcing the sense of beauty. I won't ramble
>> on about everything, but I'd like to point out how he uses the octet's
>> only four-syllable words, "beatified" and "preoccupied", to close off
>> each of its quatrains -- it adds a real touch of elegance. And I'm sure
>> he did that deliberately, because he then goes on to complete the
>> sestet, and the whole sonnet, with another four-syllable word, "realities.."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lampman's a

> See above. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Correct, obviously G.D. started the paragraph but the spacer was off on his keyboard or something...

N.G. is an oddly biased nit-picker.... as we all know...!

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:58:51 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:22:23 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:29:13 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> > > > > > > >> Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
> > > > > > > >> [...]
> > > > > > > >> The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
> > > > > > > >> Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
> > > > > > > >> And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
> > > > > > > >> [...]
> > > > > > > >> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> #pennyspoems
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This one is an exceptionally beautiful work of poetry, G.D.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for posting...!
> > > > > > "Winter-Thought"
> > > > > > by Archibald Lampman
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side
> > > > > Experienced readers would stop at the awkward inversion.
> > > > There is no "awkward" inversion in that line.
> > > Of course there is. The proper way to state said thought would be as follows:
> > >
> > > The wind-swayed daises throng every side of the wide fields in whispering companies.
> > >
> > > However, even when placed in its proper position, "every side" reveals itself as unnecessary filler. The line reads much better without it:
> > >
> > > The wind-swayed daises throng the wide fields in whispering companies.
> > > > > > Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,
> > > > > > Serene and gently smiling like the eyes
> > > > > > Of tender children long beatified,
> > > >
> > > > > Windswept and whispering doesn't bring serenity to mind.
> > > > "Whispering" does, for me; it makes me think of libraries and churches, places for thought and contemplation rather than yakking. "Windswept" doesn't, but that's probably why Lampman didn't use that word.
> > > >
> > > Are pretending to have forgotten that Mr. Lampman described the daisies as "wind-swayed." Since "wind-swayed" isn't actually a word, I referred to it with the real world it was created as a stand-in for "windswept."
> > >
> > > Pointless nit-picking over trivialities such as the above only reveals that you're grasping at straws.
> > > > > > The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
> > > >
> > > > > Mr. Lampman is one step away from becoming another Jordy in his overuse of adjectives.
> > > > Neither adjective is redundant.
> > > I said that he was "one step away" from becoming another Jordy -- not that he was another Jordy.
> > >
> > > Your reading comprehension skills are one step away from those of your Donkey.
> > > > > > Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
> > > > > > And swing and toss with all the airs that pass,
> > > > > > Yet seem so peaceful, so preoccupied;"
> > > > > Not only do swinging tossing buttercups not seem peaceful, but Mr. Lampman fails to even hint at what they might be preoccupied with.
> > > > I've always found flowers swaying in the breeze to be a peaceful image. As for what they're preoccupied with, that would be their own thoughts; they're "thought-wrapped", remember. What would flowers think about? Right now, I'm imaging the buttercups as buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant, which just makes them even more peaceful to my mind.
> > > >
> > > There you are! Calling the buttercups "Buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant" is poetry. Had Lampman incorporated a simile of that caliber, his poem might have been a worthwhile read.
> > > > > (Of course we, as critical readers, know that he "preoccupied" forms as a four-syllable rhyme to match "beatified.")
> > > > > What does 'he "preoccupied" forms' mean? What forms are you talking about? Are you just saying the same thing I told Zod (that he chose 4-syllable words deliberately for those two end-rhymes) in words of your own, or are you trying to say something else?
> > > > > > "These are the emblems of pure pleasures flown,
> > > > > > I scarce can think of pleasure without these.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm happy to say that I have always been able to think of pleasure without having to have buttercups either present or foremost in my thoughts.
> > > > > > Even to dream of them is to disown
> > > > > > The cold forlorn midwinter reveries,
> > > > > Too many adjectives. If Mr. Lampman needed filler, this would have been the perfect spot in which to introduce a metaphor. Pity.
> > > > Once again, neither adjective is reduncant "filler".
> > > This is the second time you've denied that the filler is "redundant," when I have not implied that they are. Defending the lines against imaginary charges is another of your "strawman" arguments -- and further proof that you are desperately grasping at proverbial straws.
> > > > Midwinter implies cold, but cold implies a lot of things -- unfeeling, uncompassionate, indifferent, depressing, gloomy -- that midwinter doesn't. Forlorn implies even more. That says enough about his midwinter thoughts; making them more important by giving them a metaphor doesn't seem like a good idea, when his goal is to not think about them.
> > > >
> > > You've unwittingly argued that "cold" and "forlorn" are redundant. Had that been my point, a "thank you" would be in order.
> > >
> > > However, my point is that one should *never* string three adjectives together under any circumstances. Of course each additional adjective will add a new shade of meaning to the thought -- that's why Jordy throws in upwards of 6 adjectives per thought. But an additional shade of meaning is hardly an excuse for atrocious writing.
> > > > > > Lulled with the perfume of old hopes new-blown,
> > > > > > No longer dreams, but dear realities."
> > > > > But since the poem represents a "winter-thought," the buttercup blossomed hopes and dreams are not a reality ... or has a season passed between the penultimate and the closing line?
> > > >
> > > > I don't think so, Michael. It looks to me as if it's still "midwinter", and there are no daisies and buttercups in sight. That doesn't mean that daisies and buttercups aren't real.
> > > >
> > > That's exactly what it means, George.
> > >
> > > Lampman is saying that the "perfume of old hopes new-blown" have made his daydreams of buttercups *real.*
> > >
> > > What he *intends* to say is that his daydreams about the buttercups have reawakened his past hopes, and that the memories have affected him as powerfully as the real buttercups would have done.
> > >
> > > That, however, is not what he actually says. One can surmise that from the context of the poem, but should not have to guess at what a poet *intended* to write.
> > >
> > > A poet is a wordsmith -- a master craftsman who uses words to express thoughts, feelings, images, ideas, moods, stories, etc.
> > >
> > > Lampman lacks the mastery to bring his poem off.
> > Says Michael Pendragon, the delusional little monkey who thinks he's a better poet than T.S. Eliot.
> I've listed and

Lied and cyberbullied?

Yes, we know.

:)

George Dance wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:29:13 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 4:55:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:18:19 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
>
>> > > > "Winter-Thought"
>> > > > by Archibald Lampman
>> > > >
>> > > > "The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side
>> > > Experienced readers would stop at the awkward inversion.
>> > There is no "awkward" inversion in that line.
>> Of course there is. The proper way to state said thought would be as follows:
>>
>> The wind-swayed daises throng every side of the wide fields in whispering companies.

> LOL! Your 'experienced reader' would have no way of knowing that, as he stopped after Line 1.

>> However, even when placed in its proper position, "every side" reveals itself as unnecessary filler. The line reads much better without it:
>>
>> The wind-swayed daises throng the wide fields in whispering companies.

>> > > > Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,

> That clause reads, in full:
> ""The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side / Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,"

> You can call that an inversion, but there's nothing awkward about it.

>> > > > Serene and gently smiling like the eyes
>> > > > Of tender children long beatified,
>> >
>> > > Windswept and whispering doesn't bring serenity to mind.
>> > "Whispering" does, for me; it makes me think of libraries and churches, places for thought and contemplation rather than yakking. "Windswept" doesn't, but that's probably why Lampman didn't use that word.
>> >
>> Are pretending to have forgotten that Mr. Lampman described the daisies as "wind-swayed."

> No, I'm pointing out that he wrote "wind-swayed" (swayed by the wind), not "windswept".

> Since "wind-swayed" isn't actually a word, I referred to it with the real world it was created as a stand-in for "windswept."

> I see: you just 'figured out' on your own that Lampman meant "windswept".

>> Pointless nit-picking over trivialities such as the above only reveals that you're grasping at straws.

> It's hardly a triviality when you change words in a poem just so you'll have something to criticize. It's on par with your Chimp changing punctuation in other people's poems just so you could criticize that. Once again: when you're criticizing poetry, stick with what the poem says, not what you'd like it to say.

>> > > > The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>> >
>> > > Mr. Lampman is one step away from becoming another Jordy in his overuse of adjectives.
>> > Neither adjective is redundant.
>> I said that he was "one step away" from becoming another Jordy -- not that he was another Jordy.

> Who are you arguing with? You're the only one who mentioned Jordy.

>> Your reading comprehension skills are one step away from those of your Donkey.

> Perhaps, Michael Monkey; but the above example does not suggest that yours are any better, or even as good.

>> > > > Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>> > > > And swing and toss with all the airs that pass,
>> > > > Yet seem so peaceful, so preoccupied;"
>> > > Not only do swinging tossing buttercups not seem peaceful, but Mr. Lampman fails to even hint at what they might be preoccupied with.
>> > I've always found flowers swaying in the breeze to be a peaceful image. As for what they're preoccupied with, that would be their own thoughts; they're "thought-wrapped", remember. What would flowers think about? Right now, I'm imaging the buttercups as buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant, which just makes them even more peaceful to my mind.
>> >
>> There you are! Calling the buttercups "Buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant" is poetry. Had Lampman incorporated a simile of that caliber, his poem might have been a worthwhile read.

> I was actually quite impressed with Lampman's simile: "The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide / Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass". So were you, I'd suggest, as you split it up just to take yet another swipe at one of your many "adversaries".

>> > > (Of course we, as critical readers, know that he "preoccupied" forms as a four-syllable rhyme to match "beatified.")
>> > > What does 'he "preoccupied" forms' mean? What forms are you talking about? Are you just saying the same thing I told Zod (that he chose 4-syllable words deliberately for those two end-rhymes) in words of your own, or are you trying to say something else?

> No answer. Maybe NastyGoon can help out instead. O, please, NastyGoon, please help me out with your superior "reading comprehension". Just how does one "preoccupy" a form?

>> > > > "These are the emblems of pure pleasures flown,
>> > > > I scarce can think of pleasure without these.
>> >
>> > > I'm happy to say that I have always been able to think of pleasure without having to have buttercups either present or foremost in my thoughts.
>> > > > Even to dream of them is to disown
>> > > > The cold forlorn midwinter reveries,
>> > > Too many adjectives. If Mr. Lampman needed filler, this would have been the perfect spot in which to introduce a metaphor. Pity.
>> > Once again, neither adjective is redundant "filler".
>> This is the second time you've denied that the filler is "redundant," when I have not implied that they are.

> If they're not "redundant," then why are you calling them "filler"? "Filler" means adding words that serve no purpose (due to redundancy) other than to pad out the meter.

>> Defending the lines against imaginary charges is another of your "strawman" arguments -- and further proof that you are desperately grasping at proverbial straws.

> Either the adjectives are redundant, or they serve a purpose beyond that padding the meter. If they serve a purpose beyond meter-padding, they're not "filler." Call that a "strawman argument" all you want; it is not.

> If you're conceding that none of the adjectives is "redundant," while continuing to insist that they're "filler," then you're using some other definition of "filler" of your own. Do not smuggle in your own definitions.

>> > Midwinter implies cold, but cold implies a lot of things -- unfeeling, uncompassionate, indifferent, depressing, gloomy -- that midwinter doesn't. Forlorn implies even more. That says enough about his midwinter thoughts; making them more important by giving them a metaphor doesn't seem like a good idea, when his goal is to not think about them.
>> >
>> You've unwittingly argued that "cold" and "forlorn" are redundant. Had that been my point, a "thank you" would be in order.

> No, I argued the opposite. "Cold" is not redundant, as it implies things that "midwinter" doesn't. Neither is "forlorn" as it implies even more -- depressed and despondent. And neither FTM is "midwinter," as it's the only word in the sonnet (as opposed to the title) that tells the reader when the described events are happening.

>> However, my point is that one should *never* string three adjectives together under any circumstances.

> That's a strange rule. What if I wanted to write about "19th-century Canadian English-language poetry"? Are you saying I can't even use that phrase?

>> Of course each additional adjective will add a new shade of meaning to the thought -- that's why Jordy throws in upwards of 6 adjectives per thought..

> No, Michael, you're wrong there, too. Jordy often uses redundant adjectives in his prose. He does so for rhetorical or propaganda effect, to reinforce one meaning -- not to add "new shade[s] of meaning," for fuck sake. Now, can you please stop thinking about your "adversaries" and concentrate on the poem?

>> But an additional shade of meaning is hardly an excuse for atrocious writing.

> "The cold forlorn midwinter reveries" may not be Lampman's best line in the sonnet, but there's nothing "atrocious" about it.

>> > > > Lulled with the perfume of old hopes new-blown,
>> > > > No longer dreams, but dear realities."
>> > > But since the poem represents a "winter-thought," the buttercup blossomed hopes and dreams are not a reality ... or has a season passed between the penultimate and the closing line?
>> >
>> > I don't think so, Michael. It looks to me as if it's still "midwinter", and there are no daisies and buttercups in sight. That doesn't mean that daisies and buttercups aren't real.
>> >
>> That's exactly what it means, George.
>>
>> Lampman is saying that the "perfume of old hopes new-blown" have made his daydreams of buttercups *real.*

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:22:23 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:29:13 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 4:55:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:18:19 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
>> > > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 8:51:55 AM UTC, George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > > > > On 2023-03-04 3:29 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>> > > > > > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> > > > > > >> Winter-Thought, by Archibald Lampman
>> > > > > > >> [...]
>> > > > > > >> The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>> > > > > > >> Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>> > > > > > >> And swing and toss with all the airs that pass
>> > > > > > >> [...]
>> > > > > > >> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2023/03/winter-thought-archibald-lampman.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >> #pennyspoems
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > This one is an exceptionally beautiful work of poetry, G.D.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks for posting...!
>> > > > > "Winter-Thought"
>> > > > > by Archibald Lampman
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side
>> > > > Experienced readers would stop at the awkward inversion.
>> > > There is no "awkward" inversion in that line.
>> > Of course there is. The proper way to state said thought would be as follows:
>> >
>> > The wind-swayed daises throng every side of the wide fields in whispering companies.
>> >
>> > However, even when placed in its proper position, "every side" reveals itself as unnecessary filler. The line reads much better without it:
>> >
>> > The wind-swayed daises throng the wide fields in whispering companies.
>> > > > > Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,
>> > > > > Serene and gently smiling like the eyes
>> > > > > Of tender children long beatified,
>> > >
>> > > > Windswept and whispering doesn't bring serenity to mind.
>> > > "Whispering" does, for me; it makes me think of libraries and churches, places for thought and contemplation rather than yakking. "Windswept" doesn't, but that's probably why Lampman didn't use that word.
>> > >
>> > Are pretending to have forgotten that Mr. Lampman described the daisies as "wind-swayed." Since "wind-swayed" isn't actually a word, I referred to it with the real world it was created as a stand-in for "windswept."
>> >
>> > Pointless nit-picking over trivialities such as the above only reveals that you're grasping at straws.
>> > > > > The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>> > >
>> > > > Mr. Lampman is one step away from becoming another Jordy in his overuse of adjectives.
>> > > Neither adjective is redundant.
>> > I said that he was "one step away" from becoming another Jordy -- not that he was another Jordy.
>> >
>> > Your reading comprehension skills are one step away from those of your Donkey.
>> > > > > Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>> > > > > And swing and toss with all the airs that pass,
>> > > > > Yet seem so peaceful, so preoccupied;"
>> > > > Not only do swinging tossing buttercups not seem peaceful, but Mr. Lampman fails to even hint at what they might be preoccupied with.
>> > > I've always found flowers swaying in the breeze to be a peaceful image. As for what they're preoccupied with, that would be their own thoughts; they're "thought-wrapped", remember. What would flowers think about? Right now, I'm imaging the buttercups as buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant, which just makes them even more peaceful to my mind.
>> > >
>> > There you are! Calling the buttercups "Buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant" is poetry. Had Lampman incorporated a simile of that caliber, his poem might have been a worthwhile read.
>> > > > (Of course we, as critical readers, know that he "preoccupied" forms as a four-syllable rhyme to match "beatified.")
>> > > > What does 'he "preoccupied" forms' mean? What forms are you talking about? Are you just saying the same thing I told Zod (that he chose 4-syllable words deliberately for those two end-rhymes) in words of your own, or are you trying to say something else?
>> > > > > "These are the emblems of pure pleasures flown,
>> > > > > I scarce can think of pleasure without these.
>> > >
>> > > > I'm happy to say that I have always been able to think of pleasure without having to have buttercups either present or foremost in my thoughts..
>> > > > > Even to dream of them is to disown
>> > > > > The cold forlorn midwinter reveries,
>> > > > Too many adjectives. If Mr. Lampman needed filler, this would have been the perfect spot in which to introduce a metaphor. Pity.
>> > > Once again, neither adjective is reduncant "filler".
>> > This is the second time you've denied that the filler is "redundant," when I have not implied that they are. Defending the lines against imaginary charges is another of your "strawman" arguments -- and further proof that you are desperately grasping at proverbial straws.
>> > > Midwinter implies cold, but cold implies a lot of things -- unfeeling, uncompassionate, indifferent, depressing, gloomy -- that midwinter doesn't. Forlorn implies even more. That says enough about his midwinter thoughts; making them more important by giving them a metaphor doesn't seem like a good idea, when his goal is to not think about them.
>> > >
>> > You've unwittingly argued that "cold" and "forlorn" are redundant. Had that been my point, a "thank you" would be in order.
>> >
>> > However, my point is that one should *never* string three adjectives together under any circumstances. Of course each additional adjective will add a new shade of meaning to the thought -- that's why Jordy throws in upwards of 6 adjectives per thought. But an additional shade of meaning is hardly an excuse for atrocious writing.
>> > > > > Lulled with the perfume of old hopes new-blown,
>> > > > > No longer dreams, but dear realities."
>> > > > But since the poem represents a "winter-thought," the buttercup blossomed hopes and dreams are not a reality ... or has a season passed between the penultimate and the closing line?
>> > >
>> > > I don't think so, Michael. It looks to me as if it's still "midwinter", and there are no daisies and buttercups in sight. That doesn't mean that daisies and buttercups aren't real.
>> > >
>> > That's exactly what it means, George.
>> >
>> > Lampman is saying that the "perfume of old hopes new-blown" have made his daydreams of buttercups *real.*
>> >
>> > What he *intends* to say is that his daydreams about the buttercups have reawakened his past hopes, and that the memories have affected him as powerfully as the real buttercups would have done.
>> >
>> > That, however, is not what he actually says. One can surmise that from the context of the poem, but should not have to guess at what a poet *intended* to write.
>> >
>> > A poet is a wordsmith -- a master craftsman who uses words to express thoughts, feelings, images, ideas, moods, stories, etc.
>> >
>> > Lampman lacks the mastery to bring his poem off.
>> Says Michael Pendragon, the delusional little monkey who thinks he's a better poet than T.S. Eliot.

> I've listed and discussed numerous examples in support of my claim

So, that just underscores your delusional state, Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

W-Dockery wrote:

> George Dance wrote:

>> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:45:10 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:00:24 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>> > George Dance wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:29:13 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> > >> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:50:07 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>>> > >> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 4:55:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> > >> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:18:19 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> > > > "Winter-Thought"
>>> > >> > > > by Archibald Lampman
>>> > >> > > >
>>> > >> > > > "The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side
>>> > >> > > Experienced readers would stop at the awkward inversion.
>>> > >> > There is no "awkward" inversion in that line.
>>> > >> Of course there is. The proper way to state said thought would be as follows:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The wind-swayed daises throng every side of the wide fields in whispering companies.
>>> >
>>> > > LOL! Your 'experienced reader' would have no way of knowing that, as he stopped after Line 1.
>>> >
>>> > >> However, even when placed in its proper position, "every side" reveals itself as unnecessary filler. The line reads much better without it:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The wind-swayed daises throng the wide fields in whispering companies.
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,
>>> >
>>> > > That clause reads, in full:
>>> > > ""The wind-swayed daisies, that on every side / Throng the wide fields in whispering companies,"
>>> >
>>> > > You can call that an inversion, but there's nothing awkward about it.
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > Serene and gently smiling like the eyes
>>> > >> > > > Of tender children long beatified,
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > > Windswept and whispering doesn't bring serenity to mind.
>>> > >> > "Whispering" does, for me; it makes me think of libraries and churches, places for thought and contemplation rather than yakking. "Windswept" doesn't, but that's probably why Lampman didn't use that word.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> Are pretending to have forgotten that Mr. Lampman described the daisies as "wind-swayed."
>>> >
>>> > > No, I'm pointing out that he wrote "wind-swayed" (swayed by the wind), not "windswept".
>>> >
>>> > > Since "wind-swayed" isn't actually a word, I referred to it with the real world it was created as a stand-in for "windswept."
>>> >
>>> > > I see: you just 'figured out' on your own that Lampman meant "windswept".
>>> >
>>> > >> Pointless nit-picking over trivialities such as the above only reveals that you're grasping at straws.
>>> >
>>> > > It's hardly a triviality when you change words in a poem just so you'll have something to criticize. It's on par with your Chimp changing punctuation in other people's poems just so you could criticize that. Once again: when you're criticizing poetry, stick with what the poem says, not what you'd like it to say.
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > > Mr. Lampman is one step away from becoming another Jordy in his overuse of adjectives.
>>> > >> > Neither adjective is redundant.
>>> > >> I said that he was "one step away" from becoming another Jordy -- not that he was another Jordy.
>>> >
>>> > > Who are you arguing with? You're the only one who mentioned Jordy.
>>> >
>>> > >> Your reading comprehension skills are one step away from those of your Donkey.
>>> >
>>> > > Perhaps, Michael Monkey; but the above example does not suggest that yours are any better, or even as good.
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass,
>>> > >> > > > And swing and toss with all the airs that pass,
>>> > >> > > > Yet seem so peaceful, so preoccupied;"
>>> > >> > > Not only do swinging tossing buttercups not seem peaceful, but Mr. Lampman fails to even hint at what they might be preoccupied with.
>>> > >> > I've always found flowers swaying in the breeze to be a peaceful image. As for what they're preoccupied with, that would be their own thoughts; they're "thought-wrapped", remember. What would flowers think about? Right now, I'm imaging the buttercups as buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant, which just makes them even more peaceful to my mind.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> There you are! Calling the buttercups "Buddhist monks in saffron robes, swaying back and forth in unison, in time to a silent chant" is poetry. Had Lampman incorporated a simile of that caliber, his poem might have been a worthwhile read.
>>> >
>>> > > I was actually quite impressed with Lampman's simile: "The delicate thought-wrapped buttercups that glide / Like sparks of fire above the wavering grass". So were you, I'd suggest, as you split it up just to take yet another swipe at one of your many "adversaries".
>>> >
>>> > >> > > (Of course we, as critical readers, know that he "preoccupied" forms as a four-syllable rhyme to match "beatified.")
>>> > >> > > What does 'he "preoccupied" forms' mean? What forms are you talking about? Are you just saying the same thing I told Zod (that he chose 4-syllable words deliberately for those two end-rhymes) in words of your own, or are you trying to say something else?
>>> >
>>> > > No answer. Maybe NastyGoon can help out instead. O, please, NastyGoon, please help me out with your superior "reading comprehension". Just how does one "preoccupy" a form?
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > "These are the emblems of pure pleasures flown,
>>> > >> > > > I scarce can think of pleasure without these.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > > I'm happy to say that I have always been able to think of pleasure without having to have buttercups either present or foremost in my thoughts.
>>> > >> > > > Even to dream of them is to disown
>>> > >> > > > The cold forlorn midwinter reveries,
>>> > >> > > Too many adjectives. If Mr. Lampman needed filler, this would have been the perfect spot in which to introduce a metaphor. Pity.
>>> > >> > Once again, neither adjective is redundant "filler".
>>> > >> This is the second time you've denied that the filler is "redundant," when I have not implied that they are.
>>> >
>>> > > If they're not "redundant," then why are you calling them "filler"? "Filler" means adding words that serve no purpose (due to redundancy) other than to pad out the meter.
>>> >
>>> > >> Defending the lines against imaginary charges is another of your "strawman" arguments -- and further proof that you are desperately grasping at proverbial straws.
>>> >
>>> > > Either the adjectives are redundant, or they serve a purpose beyond that padding the meter. If they serve a purpose beyond meter-padding, they're not "filler." Call that a "strawman argument" all you want; it is not.
>>> >
>>> > > If you're conceding that none of the adjectives is "redundant," while continuing to insist that they're "filler," then you're using some other definition of "filler" of your own. Do not smuggle in your own definitions.
>>> >
>>> > >> > Midwinter implies cold, but cold implies a lot of things -- unfeeling, uncompassionate, indifferent, depressing, gloomy -- that midwinter doesn't. Forlorn implies even more. That says enough about his midwinter thoughts; making them more important by giving them a metaphor doesn't seem like a good idea, when his goal is to not think about them.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> You've unwittingly argued that "cold" and "forlorn" are redundant. Had that been my point, a "thank you" would be in order.
>>> >
>>> > > No, I argued the opposite. "Cold" is not redundant, as it implies things that "midwinter" doesn't. Neither is "forlorn" as it implies even more -- depressed and despondent. And neither FTM is "midwinter," as it's the only word in the sonnet (as opposed to the title) that tells the reader when the described events are happening.
>>> >
>>> > >> However, my point is that one should *never* string three adjectives together under any circumstances.
>>> >
>>> > > That's a strange rule. What if I wanted to write about "19th-century Canadian English-language poetry"? Are you saying I can't even use that phrase?
>>> > >> Of course each additional adjective will add a new shade of meaning to the thought -- that's why Jordy throws in upwards of 6 adjectives per thought..
>>> > > No, Michael, you're wrong there, too. Jordy often uses redundant adjectives in his prose. He does so for rhetorical or propaganda effect, to reinforce one meaning -- not to add "new shade[s] of meaning," for fuck sake. Now, can you please stop thinking about your "adversaries" and concentrate on the poem?
>>> >
>>> > >> But an additional shade of meaning is hardly an excuse for atrocious writing.
>>> >
>>> > > "The cold forlorn midwinter reveries" may not be Lampman's best line in the sonnet, but there's nothing "atrocious" about it.
>>> >
>>> > >> > > > Lulled with the perfume of old hopes new-blown,
>>> > >> > > > No longer dreams, but dear realities."
>>> > >> > > But since the poem represents a "winter-thought," the buttercup blossomed hopes and dreams are not a reality ... or has a season passed between the penultimate and the closing line?
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > I don't think so, Michael. It looks to me as if it's still "midwinter", and there are no daisies and buttercups in sight. That doesn't mean that daisies and buttercups aren't real.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> That's exactly what it means, George.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Lampman is saying that the "perfume of old hopes new-blown" have made his daydreams of buttercups *real.*
>>> >
>>> > >> What he *intends* to say is that his daydreams about the buttercups have reawakened his past hopes, and that the memories have affected him as powerfully as the real buttercups would have done.
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>> > > No, I don't think so. I think he intends to say what he does say: that being able to see (and even smell) the fields of flowers in his mind reminds him that they are real; as real as the fields of snow that his senses tell him currently obtain.
>>> >
>>> > > I don't expect you to understand that -- you've got your 'interpretation' and you'll stick with it -- but others may be reading, so I'll try to explain with an analogy. Often, when I worked as a head packer, I'd be asked to work a double shift. I did not like working 16 hours straight, but I'd think of the extra money on my paycheque. That extra money on my paycheque was not currently happening, but it was as real as the work I was currently doing. In the same way, the fields of flowers that Lampman's remembering are not currently happening, but are as real as the fields of snow that are currently happening.
>>> >
>>> > >> That, however, is not what he actually says. One can surmise that from the context of the poem, but should not have to guess at what a poet *intended* to write.
>>> >
>>> > > LOL again! As I wrote to NastyGoon on Jan. 26:
>>> > > "As I've said before: one can't discuss the poem a poet "intended" to write.."
>>> > > - to which you replied -
>>> > > "That isn't true, George."
>>> >
>>> > > I'm glad you now agree with me, but please stop pretending you're explaining something to me that I've already explained to you. It's an annoying habit of yours, one that makes you look like a smug little monkey.
>>> >
>>> > >> A poet is a wordsmith -- a master craftsman who uses words to express thoughts, feelings, images, ideas, moods, stories, etc.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Lampman lacks the mastery to bring his poem off.
>>> >
>>> > > If necessary, I'd argue that Lampman died too early (at 33) to achieve full mastery of his craft. But I don't think I have to in this case; Lampman's sonnet is well done.
>>> > Again, well put, George.
>>> >
>>> > :)
>>> Yep... and note the crickets... ha ha.