I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.

I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
but they were spiked and welded shut.

Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
beach.
https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06

Lynn

On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>>
>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>
>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>> beach.
>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>>
>> Lynn
>
> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.

Works for me !

Lynn

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:40:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

r>I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine
what
>bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>
>I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>but they were spiked and welded shut.
>
>Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>beach.
> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>
>Lynn

Amen to that. And I knew a man (a former employee of ours) who was
even braver - he was an MP of the Canadian Sherbrooke Regiment whose
job on D-Day was to STAY on Juno Beach until nightfall to hustle newly
landed troops OFF the beach and into the relative safety of the trees
beyond. (He didn't get to move off the beach until nightfall all the
while with the Germans doing their best to keep him on the sand of the
beaches FOREVER) And then across France through Belgium and Holland
into Germany before ending his war east of the Rhine.

(And forever embarassed by how his war ended - getting a stray piece
of shrapnel in his buttock near Hamburg less than 10 days before the
ceasefire...)

And then nearly 45 years later keeping me sane the day my second born
was being born after a very long labor when I had to stay at work
until the call came from the hospital to get there quick.

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:40:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>
>I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>but they were spiked and welded shut.
>
>Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>beach.
> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06

This is one of the reasons the original Star Trek was good. Many of
those involved had first-hand experience of military service and of
war.

The Great Bird himself flew 89 combat missions in B-17s. James Doohan
lost a finger on that beach in France.

On 6/7/2022 1:40 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:40:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>>
>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>
>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>> beach.
>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>
> This is one of the reasons the original Star Trek was good. Many of
> those involved had first-hand experience of military service and of
> war.
>
> The Great Bird himself flew 89 combat missions in B-17s. James Doohan
> lost a finger on that beach in France.

The Great Bird ?

That is a lot of B-17 missions. One of my engineering mentors was shot
down on his second mission over Germany from London, England. He spent
18 months in a POW camp, weighing 118 lbs when he was freed (he was
6'4"). When I knew him in the early 1980s, he weighed 350 lbs. I never
had enough guts to ask if his crew made it out of the plane, he was the
pilot.

Lynn

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 17:32:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 6/7/2022 1:40 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:40:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>>>
>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>>
>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>>> beach.
>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>>
>> This is one of the reasons the original Star Trek was good. Many of
>> those involved had first-hand experience of military service and of
>> war.
>>
>> The Great Bird himself flew 89 combat missions in B-17s. James Doohan
>> lost a finger on that beach in France.
>
>The Great Bird ?

Gene Roddenberry, the Great Bird of the Galaxy.
>
>That is a lot of B-17 missions. One of my engineering mentors was shot
>down on his second mission over Germany from London, England. He spent
>18 months in a POW camp, weighing 118 lbs when he was freed (he was
>6'4"). When I knew him in the early 1980s, he weighed 350 lbs. I never
>had enough guts to ask if his crew made it out of the plane, he was the
>pilot.
>
>Lynn

On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
> > On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
> >> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
> >> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
> >> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
> >>
> >> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
> >> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
> >> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
> >> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
> >> but they were spiked and welded shut.
> >>
> >> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
> >> beach.
> >> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
>
> Works for me !
>
> Lynn

Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
with fewer cartoon dogs in it?

I'm developing the impression that the sea being
filled with crosses represents real defensive
infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
Not dead soldiers as I thought first.

> I'm developing the impression that the sea being
> filled with crosses represents real defensive
> infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
> Not dead soldiers as I thought first.
Yes, I beam tripods make it hard for landers to get In, leaving a dangerous swim for troops. Some have a landmine on top. Afterwards there is some guilt and recrimination about boatsmen not coming as far as possible, especially floating Sherman “DD” tanks that were very vulnerable.

On 6/7/2022 4:12 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>>>
>>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>>>> beach.
>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
>>
>> Works for me !
>>
>> Lynn
>
> Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
> with fewer cartoon dogs in it?
>
> I'm developing the impression that the sea being
> filled with crosses represents real defensive
> infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
> Not dead soldiers as I thought first.

Obstacles for landing craft. If they attempted to land at high tide
those would rip apart the bottom of any landing craft that went over
them. Barbed wire would have been a little ways inland from the high
tide mark to keep infantry pinned in the open.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/7/2022 3:32 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/7/2022 1:40 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:40:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year.  I cannot imagine what
>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>>> craft and assault the beach.  I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled.  Simply amazing.
>>>
>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>>> beaches.  And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>>> the Germans back.  The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>>
>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>>> beach.
>>>     https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>>
>> This is one of the reasons the original Star Trek was good.  Many of
>> those involved had first-hand experience of military service and of
>> war.
>>
>> The Great Bird himself flew 89 combat missions in B-17s.  James Doohan
>> lost a finger on that beach in France.
>
> The Great Bird ?
>
Nickname for Gene Roddenberry.

> That is a lot of B-17 missions.  One of my engineering mentors was shot
> down on his second mission over Germany from London, England.  He spent
> 18 months in a POW camp, weighing 118 lbs when he was freed (he was
> 6'4").  When I knew him in the early 1980s, he weighed 350 lbs.  I never
> had enough guts to ask if his crew made it out of the plane, he was the
> pilot.
>

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 8:46:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/7/2022 4:12 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
> >>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
> >>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
> >>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
> >>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
> >>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
> >>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
> >>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
> >>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
> >>>>
> >>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
> >>>> beach.
> >>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
> >>>>
> >>>> Lynn
> >>>
> >>> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
> >>
> >> Works for me !
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
> > with fewer cartoon dogs in it?
> >
> > I'm developing the impression that the sea being
> > filled with crosses represents real defensive
> > infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
> > Not dead soldiers as I thought first.
> Obstacles for landing craft. If they attempted to land at high tide
> those would rip apart the bottom of any landing craft that went over
> them. Barbed wire would have been a little ways inland from the high
> tide mark to keep infantry pinned in the open.
>
> --
Ukraine is using a lot of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog

...to stave off Russian tanks. Spring mud helps, too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/21/how-ukraines-mud-became-a-secret-weapon-in-its-defense-against-russia.html

It's known in parts of New England as "Mud Season."

[quote]

A similar concept, under the name of rasputitsa in Russia or bezdorizhzhia in Ukraine,
appears in Eastern European regions dominated by clay-based soils

[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_season

You'd think Russian officers would have known better!
--
Kevin R

On 6/7/2022 6:43 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 8:46:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/7/2022 4:12 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>>>>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>>>>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>>>>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>>>>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>>>>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>>>>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>>>>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>>>>>> beach.
>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
>>>>
>>>> Works for me !
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
>>> with fewer cartoon dogs in it?
>>>
>>> I'm developing the impression that the sea being
>>> filled with crosses represents real defensive
>>> infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
>>> Not dead soldiers as I thought first.
>> Obstacles for landing craft. If they attempted to land at high tide
>> those would rip apart the bottom of any landing craft that went over
>> them. Barbed wire would have been a little ways inland from the high
>> tide mark to keep infantry pinned in the open.
>>
>> --
> Ukraine is using a lot of these:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog
>
> ..to stave off Russian tanks. Spring mud helps, too.
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/21/how-ukraines-mud-became-a-secret-weapon-in-its-defense-against-russia.html
>
> It's known in parts of New England as "Mud Season."
>
> [quote]
>
> A similar concept, under the name of rasputitsa in Russia or bezdorizhzhia in Ukraine,
> appears in Eastern European regions dominated by clay-based soils
>
>
> [/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_season
>
> You'd think Russian officers would have known better!

There is an irony to Russian forces falling victim to the same thing
that helped save them 80 years ago. Karma is a female dog. :)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 18:43:25 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 8:46:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/7/2022 4:12 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
>> >>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
>> >>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
>> >>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
>> >>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
>> >>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
>> >>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
>> >>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
>> >>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
>> >>>> beach.
>> >>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Lynn
>> >>>
>> >>> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
>> >>
>> >> Works for me !
>> >>
>> >> Lynn
>> >
>> > Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
>> > with fewer cartoon dogs in it?
>> >
>> > I'm developing the impression that the sea being
>> > filled with crosses represents real defensive
>> > infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
>> > Not dead soldiers as I thought first.
>> Obstacles for landing craft. If they attempted to land at high tide
>> those would rip apart the bottom of any landing craft that went over
>> them. Barbed wire would have been a little ways inland from the high
>> tide mark to keep infantry pinned in the open.
>>
>> --
>Ukraine is using a lot of these:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog
>
>..to stave off Russian tanks. Spring mud helps, too.
>
>https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/21/how-ukraines-mud-became-a-secret-weapon-in-its-defense-against-russia.html
>
>It's known in parts of New England as "Mud Season."
>
>[quote]
>
>A similar concept, under the name of rasputitsa in Russia or bezdorizhzhia in Ukraine,
>appears in Eastern European regions dominated by clay-based soils
>
>
>[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_season
>
>You'd think Russian officers would have known better!

Well, they didn't expect to be fighting so long the ground would thaw.
They /really believe/ that Great Russians are the Master Race and the
Ukrainians are God's joke.

A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
the earlier reports of frostbite.

One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
quite quite warm. And moist.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 6/6/22 12:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year.  I cannot imagine what
> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
> craft and assault the beach.  I have been all over the Gold Normandy
> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled.  Simply amazing.
>
> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
> beaches.  And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
> the Germans back.  The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
> but they were spiked and welded shut.
>
> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
> beach.
>    https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
>
> Lynn

I put this on FB back in 2013. I think it apropos for today.

We just ran a call with a 91 y.o. gentleman. I wonder where he was 69
years ago today. Was he coming ashore in the 4th or 5th wave at Omaha
Beach, or maybe pushing toward in toward the hedgerow country? Maybe he
was slogging it out in Marshalls, the Gilberts, or the Marianas. He
could have even been in the Aleutians fighting the Japanese and the
mosquitos. 200000 men went ashore at Normandy. I wish he could talk so
we could say thank you.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 12:56:29 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 18:43:25 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 8:46:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> >> On 6/7/2022 4:12 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> > On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 23:36:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >> On 6/6/2022 4:37 PM, Darryl H wrote:
> >> >>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:40:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> >>>> I watched “Saving Private Ryan” again last year. I cannot imagine what
> >> >>>> bravery it took to be the first men to get in those junk beach landing
> >> >>>> craft and assault the beach. I have been all over the Gold Normandy
> >> >>>> beach and the cliffs that Rudder’s Rangers scaled. Simply amazing.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I was wondering why there were these huge holes in the ground above the
> >> >>>> beaches. And then I realized those were the 16 inch guns on the Iowa
> >> >>>> and the Missouri shooting Volkswagen sized shells at the beach to force
> >> >>>> the Germans back. The German 6 inch and 8 inch guns are still there,
> >> >>>> but they were spiked and welded shut.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Charles Schultz did a great job of tribute to those men assaulting the
> >> >>>> beach.
> >> >>>> https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2022/06/06
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Lynn
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This strip was first done in 1996 and was previous repeated every D-Day anniversary replacing a current year cycle strip from 2014-2019.
> >> >>
> >> >> Works for me !
> >> >>
> >> >> Lynn
> >> >
> >> > Is the panel based on an existing image of "D Day"
> >> > with fewer cartoon dogs in it?
> >> >
> >> > I'm developing the impression that the sea being
> >> > filled with crosses represents real defensive
> >> > infrastructure. Something to do with barbed wire.
> >> > Not dead soldiers as I thought first.
> >> Obstacles for landing craft. If they attempted to land at high tide
> >> those would rip apart the bottom of any landing craft that went over
> >> them. Barbed wire would have been a little ways inland from the high
> >> tide mark to keep infantry pinned in the open.
> >>
> >> --
> >Ukraine is using a lot of these:
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog
> >
> >..to stave off Russian tanks. Spring mud helps, too.
> >
> >https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/21/how-ukraines-mud-became-a-secret-weapon-in-its-defense-against-russia.html
> >
> >It's known in parts of New England as "Mud Season."
> >
> >[quote]
> >
> >A similar concept, under the name of rasputitsa in Russia or bezdorizhzhia in Ukraine,
> >appears in Eastern European regions dominated by clay-based soils
> >
> >
> >[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_season
> >
> >You'd think Russian officers would have known better!
> Well, they didn't expect to be fighting so long the ground would thaw.
> They /really believe/ that Great Russians are the Master Race and the
> Ukrainians are God's joke.
>
> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
> the earlier reports of frostbite.
>
> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
> quite quite warm. And moist.

Today I heard an intercepted cell call between a Russian soldier
and his mother. Among many other things, he bitched that they still had
only their 'fall uniforms', and everyone was boiling hot. Drinking water
was also in short supply.

Pt

Hi all

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:56:29 PM UTC+2, Paul S Person wrote:

> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
> the earlier reports of frostbite.

One of the news websites (I think it was CNN but I might be wrong) published a piece about what Ukrainian forces had found in Russian camps that they had overrun and in abandoned Russian vehicles.

Top of the list was the junk left over from truly crappy rations, the kind of stuff that would make US troops of the 1980s glad to have their MREs.

The second item was dress uniforms. The Russians were expecting the war to be over so quickly that they'd be having a victory parade sooner than the lack of proper clothing would become a problem.

I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.

You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.
> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
> quite quite warm. And moist.

> --
> "I begin to envy Petronius."
> "I have envied him long since."

Regards
Frank

On 6/9/2022 12:06 AM, Frank Scrooby wrote:
> Hi all
>
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:56:29 PM UTC+2, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
>> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
>> the earlier reports of frostbite.
>
> One of the news websites (I think it was CNN but I might be wrong) published a piece about what Ukrainian forces had found in Russian camps that they had overrun and in abandoned Russian vehicles.
>
> Top of the list was the junk left over from truly crappy rations, the kind of stuff that would make US troops of the 1980s glad to have their MREs.
>
> The second item was dress uniforms. The Russians were expecting the war to be over so quickly that they'd be having a victory parade sooner than the lack of proper clothing would become a problem.
>
> I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.
>
> You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.
>
Those with obese egos refuse to listen to History.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
<frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi all
>
>On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:56:29 PM UTC+2, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
>> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
>> the earlier reports of frostbite.
>
>One of the news websites (I think it was CNN but I might be wrong) published a piece about what Ukrainian forces had found in Russian camps that they had overrun and in abandoned Russian vehicles.
>
>Top of the list was the junk left over from truly crappy rations, the kind of stuff that would make US troops of the 1980s glad to have their MREs.
>
>The second item was dress uniforms. The Russians were expecting the war to be over so quickly that they'd be having a victory parade sooner than the lack of proper clothing would become a problem.
>
>I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.

Not to defend the Nazis, but they /did/ attack in the Summer and
expected to take Leningrad and Moscow before the mud arrived in the
Fall. Giving them plenty of time to supply the garrison with winter
clothing and other items. By the time supplying such things arrived,
the supply system was (I suspect) too busy sending food and
ammunition. Or the troops too dispersed to be issued winter clothing.

Putin doesn't have that excuse. It was winter when he attacked.

As to the exposure -- apparently, some units took to sleeping
/outside/ their vehicles, not wishing to be inside when a drone took
the vehicles out in the night. If they were intended to be inside,
this might explain the lack of proper clothing.

As to the Germans, it wasn't just clothing. The game /War in Europe/
has an interesting rule: if the Russian Player, in the first Winter
after the German attack, gets a bad combat result (one which would
destroy most or all of his units), he can /cancel the combat and
return to the start-off point without penalty/.

The reason for this appears to be that, during that first winter, the
German artillery (and related equipment) did not have lubricants which
would work in weather that cold and so could not fire. There were, it
appears, several instances where the Russians successfully pulled out
of an attack once they realized that it wasn't going to go their way.

>You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.

One problem is that situations change. Artillery evolves to the point
where anything that can be seen can be killed. Machine-guns make
moving in nice, even lines an invitation to slaughter. Communications
improve so that the troops can be spread out and move irregularly
while still being coordinated.

But some things don't change -- like the climate in the Ukraine. Putin
definitely failed there. And not just because of 1941; Napoleon made
the same mistake -- and /he/ managed to take Moscow. A fair number of
strategic and operational principles work as well today as they ever
did -- a false retreat to sucker the enemy into a trap, for example,
probably still works -- as long as the units forming the trap are
well-concealed and so cannot be detected from, say, orbit.
>> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
>> quite quite warm. And moist.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 5:40:42 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
> <frank....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi all
> >
> >On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:56:29 PM UTC+2, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> >> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
> >> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
> >> the earlier reports of frostbite.
> >
> >One of the news websites (I think it was CNN but I might be wrong) published a piece about what Ukrainian forces had found in Russian camps that they had overrun and in abandoned Russian vehicles.
> >
> >Top of the list was the junk left over from truly crappy rations, the kind of stuff that would make US troops of the 1980s glad to have their MREs.
> >
> >The second item was dress uniforms. The Russians were expecting the war to be over so quickly that they'd be having a victory parade sooner than the lack of proper clothing would become a problem.
> >
> >I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.
> Not to defend the Nazis, but they /did/ attack in the Summer and
> expected to take Leningrad and Moscow before the mud arrived in the
> Fall. Giving them plenty of time to supply the garrison with winter
> clothing and other items. By the time supplying such things arrived,
> the supply system was (I suspect) too busy sending food and
> ammunition. Or the troops too dispersed to be issued winter clothing.
>
> Putin doesn't have that excuse. It was winter when he attacked.
>
> As to the exposure -- apparently, some units took to sleeping
> /outside/ their vehicles, not wishing to be inside when a drone took
> the vehicles out in the night. If they were intended to be inside,
> this might explain the lack of proper clothing.
>
> As to the Germans, it wasn't just clothing. The game /War in Europe/
> has an interesting rule: if the Russian Player, in the first Winter
> after the German attack, gets a bad combat result (one which would
> destroy most or all of his units), he can /cancel the combat and
> return to the start-off point without penalty/.
>
> The reason for this appears to be that, during that first winter, the
> German artillery (and related equipment) did not have lubricants which
> would work in weather that cold and so could not fire. There were, it
> appears, several instances where the Russians successfully pulled out
> of an attack once they realized that it wasn't going to go their way.
> >You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.
> One problem is that situations change. Artillery evolves to the point
> where anything that can be seen can be killed. Machine-guns make
> moving in nice, even lines an invitation to slaughter. Communications
> improve so that the troops can be spread out and move irregularly
> while still being coordinated.
>
> But some things don't change -- like the climate in the Ukraine. Putin
> definitely failed there. And not just because of 1941; Napoleon made
> the same mistake -- and /he/ managed to take Moscow. A fair number of
> strategic and operational principles work as well today as they ever
> did -- a false retreat to sucker the enemy into a trap, for example,
> probably still works -- as long as the units forming the trap are
> well-concealed and so cannot be detected from, say, orbit.
> >> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
> >> quite quite warm. And moist.
> --
> "I begin to envy Petronius."
> "I have envied him long since."
The thing that struck me about June 6 1944 is that not long ago I saw in a documentary present day Royal Marines being trained for beach landings (at night, and I think opposed, but I am not sure). I believe the US Marines have similar training. With modern weapons it seems highly unlikely that anybody would survive to fight their way up from the beach, but if the powers that be want to try it, they have people ready, trained, and raring to go. (About the only stupid thing the Russians haven't done so far in Ukraine is an opposed amphibious landing, though at one point it looked as if they might be getting ready. Possibly they already have already taken all of the beaches from the land).

On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 11:18:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 5:40:42 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
>> <frank....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi all
>> >
>> >On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:56:29 PM UTC+2, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >
>> >> A better question is, /knowing/ what Ukrainian winter is, they didn't
>> >> issue their troops with the proper clothing to withstand it -- hence
>> >> the earlier reports of frostbite.
>> >
>> >One of the news websites (I think it was CNN but I might be wrong) published a piece about what Ukrainian forces had found in Russian camps that they had overrun and in abandoned Russian vehicles.
>> >
>> >Top of the list was the junk left over from truly crappy rations, the kind of stuff that would make US troops of the 1980s glad to have their MREs.
>> >
>> >The second item was dress uniforms. The Russians were expecting the war to be over so quickly that they'd be having a victory parade sooner than the lack of proper clothing would become a problem.
>> >
>> >I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.
>> Not to defend the Nazis, but they /did/ attack in the Summer and
>> expected to take Leningrad and Moscow before the mud arrived in the
>> Fall. Giving them plenty of time to supply the garrison with winter
>> clothing and other items. By the time supplying such things arrived,
>> the supply system was (I suspect) too busy sending food and
>> ammunition. Or the troops too dispersed to be issued winter clothing.
>>
>> Putin doesn't have that excuse. It was winter when he attacked.
>>
>> As to the exposure -- apparently, some units took to sleeping
>> /outside/ their vehicles, not wishing to be inside when a drone took
>> the vehicles out in the night. If they were intended to be inside,
>> this might explain the lack of proper clothing.
>>
>> As to the Germans, it wasn't just clothing. The game /War in Europe/
>> has an interesting rule: if the Russian Player, in the first Winter
>> after the German attack, gets a bad combat result (one which would
>> destroy most or all of his units), he can /cancel the combat and
>> return to the start-off point without penalty/.
>>
>> The reason for this appears to be that, during that first winter, the
>> German artillery (and related equipment) did not have lubricants which
>> would work in weather that cold and so could not fire. There were, it
>> appears, several instances where the Russians successfully pulled out
>> of an attack once they realized that it wasn't going to go their way.
>> >You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.
>> One problem is that situations change. Artillery evolves to the point
>> where anything that can be seen can be killed. Machine-guns make
>> moving in nice, even lines an invitation to slaughter. Communications
>> improve so that the troops can be spread out and move irregularly
>> while still being coordinated.
>>
>> But some things don't change -- like the climate in the Ukraine. Putin
>> definitely failed there. And not just because of 1941; Napoleon made
>> the same mistake -- and /he/ managed to take Moscow. A fair number of
>> strategic and operational principles work as well today as they ever
>> did -- a false retreat to sucker the enemy into a trap, for example,
>> probably still works -- as long as the units forming the trap are
>> well-concealed and so cannot be detected from, say, orbit.

>The thing that struck me about June 6 1944 is that not long ago I saw in a documentary present day Royal Marines being trained for beach landings (at night, and I think opposed, but I am not sure). I believe the US Marines have similar training. With modern weapons it seems highly unlikely that anybody would survive to fight their way up from the beach, but if the powers that be want to try it, they have people ready, trained, and raring to go. (About the only stupid thing the Russians haven't done so far in Ukraine is an opposed amphibious landing, though at one point it looked as if they might be getting ready. Possibly they already have already taken all of the beaches from the land).

There are plenty of beaches whose owners don't have modern weapons
which might need to be stormed under hard-to-imagine reasons. So
training for it probably makes some sense.

And, anyway, it's in the budget, and it you don't spend it, you lose
it.

As to more advanced defenders -- modern weapons might prove effective
at suppressing them enough to make it work. Hard to tell unless
someone tries it -- which I don't recommend, as you are most likely
correct.

Now that Putin knows that the Ukrainians can /sink his fleet/ if he
gets it close enough to their coast, I don't think we'll be seeing
much activity there. Fleets work best by just /existing/, as they
/really/ take a long long time to replace. [1]

[1] OK, the USA turned them out relatively quickly in WW2, but the
ships turned out really quickly were merchant cargo ships, not
warships.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:40:35 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
><frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.
>
>Not to defend the Nazis, but they /did/ attack in the Summer and
>expected to take Leningrad and Moscow before the mud arrived in the
>Fall. Giving them plenty of time to supply the garrison with winter
>clothing and other items. By the time supplying such things arrived,
>the supply system was (I suspect) too busy sending food and
>ammunition. Or the troops too dispersed to be issued winter clothing.

While 22 June 1941 was definitely summer it was not EARLY summer.

I remain mystified about what might have been in Yugoslavia or Greece
(much less Crete which was 7 weeks after the attack on Greece) that
was of such immense value to the Third Reich.

>Putin doesn't have that excuse. It was winter when he attacked.
>
>As to the exposure -- apparently, some units took to sleeping
>/outside/ their vehicles, not wishing to be inside when a drone took
>the vehicles out in the night. If they were intended to be inside,
>this might explain the lack of proper clothing.

During WW2 it was common for Soviet tankers to sleep UNDER their
parked tanks at night.

>As to the Germans, it wasn't just clothing. The game /War in Europe/
>has an interesting rule: if the Russian Player, in the first Winter
>after the German attack, gets a bad combat result (one which would
>destroy most or all of his units), he can /cancel the combat and
>return to the start-off point without penalty/.

I don't remember that rule and I'm sure I spent 1000+ hours on that
game in the day. My copy of WiE now lives in a plastic tub in my
basement after the kids got into it and the counters went all over.
I'm sure I recovered almost all of them. Haven't played it in years
but remember having the whole 50 sq ft of the map for that spread out
on my bedroom floor in my undergraduate days though very much remember
the time when thanks to our cat 2 SS panzer divisions ended up in the
English channel! (Good times!)
>
>The reason for this appears to be that, during that first winter, the
>German artillery (and related equipment) did not have lubricants which
>would work in weather that cold and so could not fire. There were, it
>appears, several instances where the Russians successfully pulled out
>of an attack once they realized that it wasn't going to go their way.

What >I< remember from WiE was that they had separate winter rules for
1941 vs all other winters of the war (since 1941 was a minimum 10
degrees colder than the other winters - particularly in the campaign
around Moscow)

>>You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.

I had the good fortune of having a high school history teacher who
being a Canadian was seconded to British military intelligence then
following VE Day being a major was given command of a battalion on the
Elbe who was relieved to be eventually relieved since he had 3 Soviet
DIVISIONS on the other side of the river and was unsure whether they
were friendly or not and knew with that balance of forces that if the
balloon went up his role would be "speed bump"

(And a math teacher in the adjoining classroom who 35 years earlier
had been an International Brigader so their students knew those two
had often had political squabbles!)

>But some things don't change -- like the climate in the Ukraine. Putin
>definitely failed there. And not just because of 1941; Napoleon made
>the same mistake -- and /he/ managed to take Moscow. A fair number of
>strategic and operational principles work as well today as they ever
>did -- a false retreat to sucker the enemy into a trap, for example,
>probably still works -- as long as the units forming the trap are
>well-concealed and so cannot be detected from, say, orbit.

The French also attacked Ukraine in 1812 but didn't go east of Kiev.
As you say their main army was the one which went to Moscow.
>>> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
>>> quite quite warm. And moist.

One would think by the second week of June we'd be there by now no?

As for Napoleon, he invaded Russia June 23, 1812, Hitler invaded June
22, 1941 - climatically surely about the same? In 1812 the Russians
withdrew from Moscow, in 1941 they fought extremely hard for it. Of
course in 1812 the French never pushed beyond Riga therefore St
Petersburg was never seriously threatened which is definitely not
Leningrad 1941!

(Ironically St Petersburg is why my family adopted Facebook since in
2008 my eldest took a Russian language course there and sent her
pictures home via an Internet cafe and Facebook so the whole family
signed up to see them)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:22:48 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>[1] OK, the USA turned them out relatively quickly in WW2, but the
>ships turned out really quickly were merchant cargo ships, not
>warships.

Not true - if you look at US production of warships in WW2 you would
find that US production in 1943-44 was larger than the entire Pacific
fleet as of Dec 7, 1941.

Over in soc.history.what-if we once had a debate when I proposed that
even if the Japanese in December 41 / January 42 had destroyed EVERY
US ship it the Pacific (and that includes the North American west
coast and Panama) with zero losses to themselves that historical
levels of production in 1943-44 would have still resulted in US
victory no later than VJ Day + 1 year. (I assumed the Japanese fleet
would also expand at the historical rate)

Logistically Japan was not capable of taking either Australia or New
Zealand with a force large enough to retain them. (And why would they?
There's no oil there)

On the other hand Percival (at Singapore) was even less prepared than
Kimmel at Pearl Harbor. (I find it interesting that the Google search
"Who was US commander at Pearl Harbor" knew I meant 7 Dec 1941 rather
than any day before or since)

On 6/10/2022 11:40 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:22:48 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> [1] OK, the USA turned them out relatively quickly in WW2, but the
>> ships turned out really quickly were merchant cargo ships, not
>> warships.
>
> Not true - if you look at US production of warships in WW2 you would
> find that US production in 1943-44 was larger than the entire Pacific
> fleet as of Dec 7, 1941.
>
> Over in soc.history.what-if we once had a debate when I proposed that
> even if the Japanese in December 41 / January 42 had destroyed EVERY
> US ship it the Pacific (and that includes the North American west
> coast and Panama) with zero losses to themselves that historical
> levels of production in 1943-44 would have still resulted in US
> victory no later than VJ Day + 1 year. (I assumed the Japanese fleet
> would also expand at the historical rate)
>
> Logistically Japan was not capable of taking either Australia or New
> Zealand with a force large enough to retain them. (And why would they?
> There's no oil there)
>
> On the other hand Percival (at Singapore) was even less prepared than
> Kimmel at Pearl Harbor. (I find it interesting that the Google search
> "Who was US commander at Pearl Harbor" knew I meant 7 Dec 1941 rather
> than any day before or since)

Weren't most of the capital ships already under construction (or least
planned) prior to 7 Dec 1941?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/10/2022 1:30 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:40:35 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
>> <frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've read reports (again can't remember the provider) of Russians dying of exposure, literally freezing to death during the nights. If true it would seem that Putin is prepared to commit ever single mistake that the Nazis did when they invaded the USSR in WW2.
>>
>> Not to defend the Nazis, but they /did/ attack in the Summer and
>> expected to take Leningrad and Moscow before the mud arrived in the
>> Fall. Giving them plenty of time to supply the garrison with winter
>> clothing and other items. By the time supplying such things arrived,
>> the supply system was (I suspect) too busy sending food and
>> ammunition. Or the troops too dispersed to be issued winter clothing.
>
> While 22 June 1941 was definitely summer it was not EARLY summer.
>
> I remain mystified about what might have been in Yugoslavia or Greece
> (much less Crete which was 7 weeks after the attack on Greece) that
> was of such immense value to the Third Reich.
>
>> Putin doesn't have that excuse. It was winter when he attacked.
>>
>> As to the exposure -- apparently, some units took to sleeping
>> /outside/ their vehicles, not wishing to be inside when a drone took
>> the vehicles out in the night. If they were intended to be inside,
>> this might explain the lack of proper clothing.
>
> During WW2 it was common for Soviet tankers to sleep UNDER their
> parked tanks at night.
>
>> As to the Germans, it wasn't just clothing. The game /War in Europe/
>> has an interesting rule: if the Russian Player, in the first Winter
>> after the German attack, gets a bad combat result (one which would
>> destroy most or all of his units), he can /cancel the combat and
>> return to the start-off point without penalty/.
>
> I don't remember that rule and I'm sure I spent 1000+ hours on that
> game in the day. My copy of WiE now lives in a plastic tub in my
> basement after the kids got into it and the counters went all over.
> I'm sure I recovered almost all of them. Haven't played it in years
> but remember having the whole 50 sq ft of the map for that spread out
> on my bedroom floor in my undergraduate days though very much remember
> the time when thanks to our cat 2 SS panzer divisions ended up in the
> English channel! (Good times!)
>>
>> The reason for this appears to be that, during that first winter, the
>> German artillery (and related equipment) did not have lubricants which
>> would work in weather that cold and so could not fire. There were, it
>> appears, several instances where the Russians successfully pulled out
>> of an attack once they realized that it wasn't going to go their way.
>
> What >I< remember from WiE was that they had separate winter rules for
> 1941 vs all other winters of the war (since 1941 was a minimum 10
> degrees colder than the other winters - particularly in the campaign
> around Moscow)
>
>>> You'd think people would learn from history. Maybe History is just not a very good teacher.
>
> I had the good fortune of having a high school history teacher who
> being a Canadian was seconded to British military intelligence then
> following VE Day being a major was given command of a battalion on the
> Elbe who was relieved to be eventually relieved since he had 3 Soviet
> DIVISIONS on the other side of the river and was unsure whether they
> were friendly or not and knew with that balance of forces that if the
> balloon went up his role would be "speed bump"
>
> (And a math teacher in the adjoining classroom who 35 years earlier
> had been an International Brigader so their students knew those two
> had often had political squabbles!)
>
>> But some things don't change -- like the climate in the Ukraine. Putin
>> definitely failed there. And not just because of 1941; Napoleon made
>> the same mistake -- and /he/ managed to take Moscow. A fair number of
>> strategic and operational principles work as well today as they ever
>> did -- a false retreat to sucker the enemy into a trap, for example,
>> probably still works -- as long as the units forming the trap are
>> well-concealed and so cannot be detected from, say, orbit.
>
> The French also attacked Ukraine in 1812 but didn't go east of Kiev.
> As you say their main army was the one which went to Moscow.
>
>>>> One wonders what will happen when the ground dries out and it gets ...
>>>> quite quite warm. And moist.
>
> One would think by the second week of June we'd be there by now no?
>
> As for Napoleon, he invaded Russia June 23, 1812, Hitler invaded June
> 22, 1941 - climatically surely about the same? In 1812 the Russians
> withdrew from Moscow, in 1941 they fought extremely hard for it. Of
> course in 1812 the French never pushed beyond Riga therefore St
> Petersburg was never seriously threatened which is definitely not
> Leningrad 1941!
>
> (Ironically St Petersburg is why my family adopted Facebook since in
> 2008 my eldest took a Russian language course there and sent her
> pictures home via an Internet cafe and Facebook so the whole family
> signed up to see them)

Arnold Schwarzenegger talks about being a tank driver in the Austrian
Army in the 1960s in his autobiography. He always slept under his tank
when they were on maneuvers. One morning he woke up with the sun in his
face and realized that something was terribly wrong. He looked and his
tank had rolled downhill into the lake they were next to. He had
forgotten to set the parking brake. He got sentenced to a week in the
brig. Since the tank barrel was in the mud, they had to send the tank
off for barrel recalibration. BTW, he bought the tank a few years ago
and had it shipped to California where he drives it around his ranch.

Lynn

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 13:37:47 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 6/10/2022 11:40 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:22:48 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> [1] OK, the USA turned them out relatively quickly in WW2, but the
>>> ships turned out really quickly were merchant cargo ships, not
>>> warships.
>>
>> Not true - if you look at US production of warships in WW2 you would
>> find that US production in 1943-44 was larger than the entire Pacific
>> fleet as of Dec 7, 1941.
>>
>> Over in soc.history.what-if we once had a debate when I proposed that
>> even if the Japanese in December 41 / January 42 had destroyed EVERY
>> US ship it the Pacific (and that includes the North American west
>> coast and Panama) with zero losses to themselves that historical
>> levels of production in 1943-44 would have still resulted in US
>> victory no later than VJ Day + 1 year. (I assumed the Japanese fleet
>> would also expand at the historical rate)
>>
>> Logistically Japan was not capable of taking either Australia or New
>> Zealand with a force large enough to retain them. (And why would they?
>> There's no oil there)
>>
>> On the other hand Percival (at Singapore) was even less prepared than
>> Kimmel at Pearl Harbor. (I find it interesting that the Google search
>> "Who was US commander at Pearl Harbor" knew I meant 7 Dec 1941 rather
>> than any day before or since)
>
>Weren't most of the capital ships already under construction (or least
>planned) prior to 7 Dec 1941?

Nope. When the war started the US had 8 carriers in commission and
two more under construction. When the war ended the US had more than
100 carriers in commission.