Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie

A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>
> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.

Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
in retrospect.

First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
in the EU.

The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).

And another author who does not get holograms, it is _not_ possible
to projekct a hologram (such as that of a scorpion on a bike handle)
while having nothing in direct line of sight.

At the time, it wasn't bad, though.

In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>
>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>
>Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>in retrospect.
>
>First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>in the EU.

I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
and his answer was that he had not thought of that.

>The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>
And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

>>The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>>corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>>bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>>when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>>phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>
>And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.

Given Putin's stated desire to recreate the Soviet Union, perhaps
that assumption wasn't necessarily false. After all, there are still
978 years left in the 2000s.

James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t8fajm$p50$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> >James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> schrieb:
> >> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
> >>
> >
> >Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
> >in retrospect.
> >
> >First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
> >kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
> >never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
> >in the EU.
> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.

He mentioned once that designers of a Neuromancer computer game kept asking him questions about the world, such as what was happening in Russian, and he kept having to say he didn't know, he hadn't thought about it.

"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." What? A logo bouncing around from edge to edge? Is this a poetic way of saying one of those "Blade Runner" blimps was up there?

--
-Jack

In article <ltHqK.94434$ntj.36855@fx15.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>>>The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>>>corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>>>bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>>>when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>>>phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>>
>>And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>>SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>
>Given Putin's stated desire to recreate the Soviet Union, perhaps
>that assumption wasn't necessarily false. After all, there are still
>978 years left in the 2000s.

More the Russian Empire than the Soviet Union.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2022-06-16, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

>>>And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>>>SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>>
>>Given Putin's stated desire to recreate the Soviet Union, perhaps
>>that assumption wasn't necessarily false. After all, there are still
>>978 years left in the 2000s.
>
> More the Russian Empire than the Soviet Union.

Crucially, those are the same thing in Putin's mind.

I grew up during the Cold War. To me, the Soviet Union was an
ideological enemy that just happened to be centered on Russia. When
the USSR collapsed, any reason for enmity with Russia evaporated.
In recent years, I have been looking with dismay and incomprehension
at Putin's policy of making Russia an enemy of the West (and vice
versa).

Shortly before Putin's War, it finally clicked for me. Putin and
his like-minded Russian nationalists see the Soviet Union as a phase
of the Russian Empire that just happened to be communist. The
USSR's collapse wasn't a liberation, but a huge defeat and they're
motivated by revanchism. I'm as dismayed as ever, but at least I
now understand.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:18:51 PM UTC+1, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> schrieb:
> > Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
> >
> > A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
> in retrospect.
>
> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
> in the EU.
>
(trimmed)
There is almost precedent - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_monkey
I guess such a dangerous interface would in practice have to have correspondingly large military or medical benefits - if my eyesight deteriorated sufficiently that I could not read enjoyably or at all, and there was a Neural Lace that promised to allow me to read and might perhaps be the difference between living independently or not I might accept quite large risks. If rules for weapons release required a "man in the loop" and a Neural Lace provided a noticeable edge in combat, living 2/3rds of the time against an opponent who was prepared to authorise completely AI controlled weapons as opposed to being killed in every encounter might justify equipping some soldiers with a dangerous Neural Lace.

In article <slrntamsol.qta.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-06-16, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>>>And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>>>>SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>>>
>>>Given Putin's stated desire to recreate the Soviet Union, perhaps
>>>that assumption wasn't necessarily false. After all, there are still
>>>978 years left in the 2000s.
>>
>> More the Russian Empire than the Soviet Union.
>
>Crucially, those are the same thing in Putin's mind.
>
>I grew up during the Cold War. To me, the Soviet Union was an
>ideological enemy that just happened to be centered on Russia. When
>the USSR collapsed, any reason for enmity with Russia evaporated.
>In recent years, I have been looking with dismay and incomprehension
>at Putin's policy of making Russia an enemy of the West (and vice
>versa).
>
>Shortly before Putin's War, it finally clicked for me. Putin and
>his like-minded Russian nationalists see the Soviet Union as a phase
>of the Russian Empire that just happened to be communist. The
>USSR's collapse wasn't a liberation, but a huge defeat and they're
>motivated by revanchism. I'm as dismayed as ever, but at least I
>now understand.

Back in 1991, Russians who were on USENET made it very clear they
regarded the breakaway nations as a momentary phenomenon that would
soon be corrected. Their argument regarding the nuclear weapons
some post-soviet states possessed was that they should be abandoned
as soon as possible because their presence might complicate re-conquest.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 14:49:23 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t8fajm$p50$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> >James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> schrieb:
> >> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
> >>
> >> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
> >
> >Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
> >in retrospect.
> >
> >First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
> >kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
> >never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
> >in the EU.
> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.

You could, I suppose people have, done handwaving
that hacking doesn't work in safe mode - or that lethality
can't be prevented, it's anything that just makes your
heart beat faster for instance until... too fast.
Or that lethality is illegal but "rich bastard" or KGB security
software does it to unlucky hackers anyway and the public
feel that the hackers deserve it.

On 6/16/2022 8:49 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>>
>>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>>
>> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>> in retrospect.
>>
>> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>> in the EU.
>
> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.
>
>> The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>> corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>> bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>> when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>> phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>
> And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
> SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.

Don't forget the Paul McCartney song, "Back in the USSR".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbLsYoL3ug

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 6/16/2022 8:49 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>>>
>>>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>>>
>>> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>>> in retrospect.
>>>
>>> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>>> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>>> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>>> in the EU.
>>
>> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
>> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
>> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.
>>
>>> The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>>> corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>>> bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>>> when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>>> phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>>
>> And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>> SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>
>Don't forget the Paul McCartney song, "Back in the USSR".
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbLsYoL3ug

I wasn't aware that song had anything to do with science fiction or
assumptions about the longevity of the soviet union.

"In a November 1968 interview for Radio Luxembourg, McCartney said
the song was inspired by Berry's "Back in the U.S.A." and was
written from the point of view of a Russian spy returning home
to the USSR after an extended mission in the United States"

On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 18:28:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 6/16/2022 8:49 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>>
>Don't forget the Paul McCartney song, "Back in the USSR".
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbLsYoL3ug

As a solo artist he has played that song many times especially as an
encore though mercifully he didn't use it when he did a White House
gala for Obama. (He DID use it as an encore in Moscow.)

If you make the obvious guess as what song he played as an encore in
Washington that night you'd be right. (Hint: it's a one word title
connected to Obama)

On 6/17/2022 10:48 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 6/16/2022 8:49 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>>>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>>>>
>>>>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>>>>
>>>> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>>>> in retrospect.
>>>>
>>>> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>>>> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>>>> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>>>> in the EU.
>>>
>>> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
>>> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
>>> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.
>>>
>>>> The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>>>> corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>>>> bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>>>> when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>>>> phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>>>
>>> And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>>> SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>>
>> Don't forget the Paul McCartney song, "Back in the USSR".
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbLsYoL3ug
>
> I wasn't aware that song had anything to do with science fiction or
> assumptions about the longevity of the soviet union.
>
> "In a November 1968 interview for Radio Luxembourg, McCartney said
> the song was inspired by Berry's "Back in the U.S.A." and was
> written from the point of view of a Russian spy returning home
> to the USSR after an extended mission in the United States"

The excellent SF movie "Yesterday" had the hero playing the song in
Moscow to comments from his bandmates, "Does he know that the USSR no
longer exists?".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UdYBBk9XI

Lynn

On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:48:26 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>>> And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
>>> SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.
>>
>>Don't forget the Paul McCartney song, "Back in the USSR".
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JbLsYoL3ug
>
>I wasn't aware that song had anything to do with science fiction or
>assumptions about the longevity of the soviet union.
>
> "In a November 1968 interview for Radio Luxembourg, McCartney said
> the song was inspired by Berry's "Back in the U.S.A." and was
> written from the point of view of a Russian spy returning home
> to the USSR after an extended mission in the United States"

Sounds plausible though McCartney had other whoppers such as to claim
"Let it Be" was not about the Virgin Mary but his mother. Though most
people accept his claim "When I'm 64" was written in honor of his
father who had recently turned 64.

On 2022-06-16 7:49 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <t8fajm$p50$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> schrieb:
>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>>
>>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>>
>> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>> in retrospect.
>>
>> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>> in the EU.
>
> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.
>
>> The background is also strangely 1980s - centric. Japanese
>> corporations more or less ruling the world (before the asset price
>> bubble burst), no mobile phones (although there is a nice scene
>> when the AI wants to contact the protagonist by letting each
>> phone in a row of phone booths ring once as he walks by).
>>
> And this is par for the course for SF. See, for example, all those
> SF books that assumed the Soviet Union would be around in the 2000s.

To be fair, the fall of the Soviet Union seems to have only made a
transient difference in the relevant geopolitics.

On 2022-06-16 2:28 p.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 14:49:23 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <t8fajm$p50$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> schrieb:
>>>> Neuromancer (Sprawl, volume 1) by William Gibson
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/real-tough-cookie
>>>>
>>>> A down and out crook gets hired to help an AI get its act together.
>>>
>>> Cyberpunk really does not age well - the technology seems quaint
>>> in retrospect.
>>>
>>> First, why anybody would create a computer interface that could
>>> kill the user is beyond me (only as a plot device). It would
>>> never get a CE marking, for starters, so it could not be sold
>>> in the EU.
>> I think someone once asked Gibson why the hackers didn't take
>> some elementary precaution to keep black ice from killing users
>> and his answer was that he had not thought of that.
>
> You could, I suppose people have, done handwaving
> that hacking doesn't work in safe mode - or that lethality
> can't be prevented, it's anything that just makes your
> heart beat faster for instance until... too fast.
> Or that lethality is illegal but "rich bastard" or KGB security
> software does it to unlucky hackers anyway and the public
> feel that the hackers deserve it.

The only version of cyberpunk netrunning that ever worked for me, used a
magic spell to transport the characters in and out. You were actually
physically there, so it could kill you.