I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
"Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
(in article<robertaw-566C68.10092618062022@news.individual.net>):

> I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
> have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
> Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
> the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
> student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
> born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.

Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?

On Saturday, 18 June 2022 at 22:52:56 UTC+1, Wolffan wrote:
> On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
> (in article<robertaw-566C68...@news.individual.net>):
> > I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
> > have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
> > Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
> > the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
> > student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> > He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> > a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> > be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> > do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
> > born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.
> Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?

Vast and cool and unsympathetic. :-)

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 7:45:41 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Vast and cool and unsympathetic. :-)

Okay, I get the reference to "The War of the Worlds" by H. G. Wells.

John Savard

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> The name of the company she owns is
> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).

Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.

John Savard

On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > The name of the company she owns is
> > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).

> Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.

Now, if it had been "Perry Mason Enterprises", I wouldn't have needed the help
of Google.

John Savard

On 18/06/2022 12.09, Robert Woodward wrote:

> student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).

I had to say it out loud before I got it. I know what I'm going to listen
to after I mow the lawn.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

On Sat, 18 Jun 2022 10:09:26 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
>have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
>Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
>the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
>student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
>He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
>a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
>be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
>do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
>"Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
>recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
>born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.

As it happens, I am currently reading Earle Stanley Gardner, and I
have started with the Cool & Lam series. On Kindle. I'll get to Perry
Mason ... eventually.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <0001HW.285E80AF007AA7A5700006C9B38F@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
> (in article<robertaw-566C68.10092618062022@news.individual.net>):
>
> > I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
> > have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
> > Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
> > the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
> > student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> > He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> > a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> > be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> > do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
> > born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.
>
> Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?

There is an observation that her waistline indicated that she wasn't
exercising regularly (or had healthy eating habits), so I would say most
likely.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

In article <e084862c-3164-49ee-a854-bb200444abd9n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > The name of the company she owns is
> > > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).
>
> > Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.
>
> Now, if it had been "Perry Mason Enterprises", I wouldn't have needed the help
> of Google.
>

But, would you have searched for the name if you hadn't been clued in
that it was significant?

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 19/06/2022 12.07, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <e084862c-3164-49ee-a854-bb200444abd9n@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>> The name of the company she owns is
>>>> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
>>>> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).
>>
>>> Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.
>>
>> Now, if it had been "Perry Mason Enterprises", I wouldn't have needed the help
>> of Google.
>>
>
> But, would you have searched for the name if you hadn't been clued in
> that it was significant?

So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

On 19 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
(in article<robertaw-2A61FA.09535819062022@news.individual.net>):

> In article<0001HW.285E80AF007AA7A5700006C9B38F@news.supernews.com>,
> Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> > On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
> > (in article<robertaw-566C68.10092618062022@news.individual.net>):
> >
> > > I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
> > > have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
> > > Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
> > > the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
> > > student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> > > He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> > > a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> > > be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> > > do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> > > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
> > > born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.
> >
> > Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?
>
> There is an observation that her waistline indicated that she wasn't
> exercising regularly (or had healthy eating habits), so I would say most
> likely.

I thought so.

On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:07:09 PM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <e084862c-3164-49ee...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > > The name of the company she owns is
> > > > "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> > > > recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).
> >
> > > Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.
> >
> > Now, if it had been "Perry Mason Enterprises", I wouldn't have needed the help
> > of Google.
> >
> But, would you have searched for the name if you hadn't been clued in
> that it was significant?

I thought it was a reference to "Birth of Cool", but I would not have twigged to
this if you hadn't said it was a reference.

I don't get the ESG reference at all.

William Hyde

On 19/06/2022 14.27, William Hyde wrote:
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 1:07:09 PM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <e084862c-3164-49ee...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 6:45:04 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 11:09:30 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>>> The name of the company she owns is
>>>>> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
>>>>> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF).
>>>
>>>> Ah. Erle Stanley Gardner, writing as A. A. Fair.
>>>
>>> Now, if it had been "Perry Mason Enterprises", I wouldn't have needed the help
>>> of Google.
>>>
>> But, would you have searched for the name if you hadn't been clued in
>> that it was significant?
>
> I thought it was a reference to "Birth of Cool",

At least I'm not the only one.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?

Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
given causality, we may take that as read.

John Savard

On 6/18/22 14:52, Wolffan wrote:
> On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
> (in article<robertaw-566C68.10092618062022@news.individual.net>):
>
>> I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
>> have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
>> Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
>> the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
>> student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
>> He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
>> a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
>> be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
>> do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
>> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
>> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
>> born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.
>
> Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?
>
"Her name was Bertha. Bertha Butt. One of the Butt Sisters." - Jimmy
Castor Bunch - Troglodyte

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)

On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>
> > So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
> given causality, we may take that as read.

?

William Hyde

On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>
>>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
>> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
>> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
>> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
>> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
>> given causality, we may take that as read.
>
> ?

Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
from 1957 when there is something from 1939.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

> >>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?

> >> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
> >> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
> >> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
> >> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
> >> given causality, we may take that as read.

> > ?

> Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
> possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
> from 1957 when there is something from 1939.

That... was not my reasoning.

Given that the company owned was "Bertha Cool Enterprises", it is
clear from its *specificity* that it is an allusion to the detective novels.

The possibility that I was eliminating was that, perhaps, Erle Stanley
Gardner chose to name his detective "Bertha Cool" after being inspired
by Miles Davis' album. In that case, even _though_ the allusion was to
the detective novels, it could _still_ also have had something to do with
Miles Davis.

That is what the sequence of events eliminated.

John Savard

On 6/20/2022 2:32 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>
>>>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
>>> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective
>>> novels by
>>> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
>>> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and
>>> it was
>>> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
>>> given causality, we may take that as read.
>>
>> ?
>
> Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
> possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
> from 1957 when there is something from 1939.
>
Given that Quaddie has involved itself in the discussion, it isn't safe
to assume that anything subsequent to that even involves the same reality.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 4:54:25 PM UTC-4, BCFD36 wrote:
> On 6/18/22 14:52, Wolffan wrote:
> > On 18 Jun 2022, Robert Woodward wrote
> > (in article<robertaw-566C68...@news.individual.net>):
> >
> >> I was looking through the newest issue of _Asimov's_ (July/August, I
> >> have an electronic subscription) and I noticed something amusing in
> >> Robert R. Chase's story, "Goblin Market". I believe the story is set in
> >> the last 21st century (perhaps early 22nd) and features an ex-college
> >> student (he dropped out because he lost interest in his field of study).
> >> He is sent by his parents to his Aunt Bertha (I suspect that she wasn't
> >> a sibling of his parents, not certain of her exact relationship, might
> >> be a younger sibling of a grandparent). She hires him and sends out to
> >> do essential (though boring stuff). The name of the company she owns is
> >> "Bertha Cool Enterprises". I wonder how many readers of the story would
> >> recognize the reference (BTW, it isn't SF). I checked and Mr. Chase was
> >> born in 1948 so I am fairly certain that this isn't a coincidence.
> >
> > Hmm. Is Aunt Bertha somewhat overweight?
> >
>
> "Her name was Bertha. Bertha Butt. One of the Butt Sisters." - Jimmy
> Castor Bunch - Troglodyte
>

Ha! I had completely forgotten this song existed, until I heard
it on the radio about 3 weeks ago. Laugh out loud moment upon
recognition. Then I heard it again last week, and now you've
mentioned it here.

Something in the air?
Tony

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 4:44:51 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
> > > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>
> > >>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
>
> > >> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
> > >> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
> > >> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
> > >> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
> > >> given causality, we may take that as read.
>
> > > ?
>
> > Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
> > possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
> > from 1957 when there is something from 1939.
> That... was not my reasoning.
>
> Given that the company owned was "Bertha Cool Enterprises", it is
> clear from its *specificity* that it is an allusion to the detective novels.
>
> The possibility that I was eliminating was that, perhaps, Erle Stanley
> Gardner chose to name his detective "Bertha Cool" after being inspired
> by Miles Davis' album. In that case, even _though_ the allusion was to
> the detective novels, it could _still_ also have had something to do with
> Miles Davis.
>
> That is what the sequence of events eliminated.

And, furthermore, the remark to which I replied, "So it has nothing to do with
Miles Davis?" implied a resigned acceptance that the allusion was to the
aforementioned Erle Stanley Gardner novels, and hence I was not addressing
the question of what the original allusion was to, only the _remaining_ question
of whether or not it might still have something to do with Miles Davis anyways.

John Savard

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 7:59:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 4:44:51 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > > On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >
> > > >>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
> >
> > > >> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
> > > >> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
> > > >> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
> > > >> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
> > > >> given causality, we may take that as read.
> >
> > > > ?
> >
> > > Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
> > > possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
> > > from 1957 when there is something from 1939.
> > That... was not my reasoning.
> >
> > Given that the company owned was "Bertha Cool Enterprises", it is
> > clear from its *specificity* that it is an allusion to the detective novels.
> >
> > The possibility that I was eliminating was that, perhaps, Erle Stanley
> > Gardner chose to name his detective "Bertha Cool" after being inspired
> > by Miles Davis' album. In that case, even _though_ the allusion was to
> > the detective novels, it could _still_ also have had something to do with
> > Miles Davis.
> >
> > That is what the sequence of events eliminated.
> And, furthermore, the remark to which I replied, "So it has nothing to do with
> Miles Davis?" implied a resigned acceptance that the allusion was to the
> aforementioned Erle Stanley Gardner novels, and hence I was not addressing
> the question of what the original allusion was to, only the _remaining_ question
> of whether or not it might still have something to do with Miles Davis anyways.

?

William Hyde

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:38:39 PM UTC-6, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 7:59:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 4:44:51 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > > > On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > > >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
> > >
> > > > >> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
> > > > >> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
> > > > >> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
> > > > >> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
> > > > >> given causality, we may take that as read.
> > >
> > > > > ?
> > >
> > > > Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
> > > > possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
> > > > from 1957 when there is something from 1939.

> > > That... was not my reasoning.
> > >
> > > Given that the company owned was "Bertha Cool Enterprises", it is
> > > clear from its *specificity* that it is an allusion to the detective novels.
> > >
> > > The possibility that I was eliminating was that, perhaps, Erle Stanley
> > > Gardner chose to name his detective "Bertha Cool" after being inspired
> > > by Miles Davis' album. In that case, even _though_ the allusion was to
> > > the detective novels, it could _still_ also have had something to do with
> > > Miles Davis.
> > >
> > > That is what the sequence of events eliminated.

> > And, furthermore, the remark to which I replied, "So it has nothing to do with
> > Miles Davis?" implied a resigned acceptance that the allusion was to the
> > aforementioned Erle Stanley Gardner novels, and hence I was not addressing
> > the question of what the original allusion was to, only the _remaining_ question
> > of whether or not it might still have something to do with Miles Davis anyways.

> ?

Okay, you got me. I can't guess what isn't crystal clear here.

This thread began with a post by Robert Woodward. It talks about a story titled
'Goblin Market'. In that story, a character is sent to work for "Bertha Cool Enterprises"
by his aunt Bertha. Mr. Woodward notes that, since the author was born in 1948,
the reference wasn't a coincidence.

However, he doesn't explain what the reference was.

There were some posts in response in which the idea that the reference was to
the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was expressed.

However, other posts hinted at another possible reference, which I believe is
the correct one. Erle Stanley Gardner, a well-known writer of mystery novels,
is famous for having been the creator of the fictional defense lawyer Perry
Mason, and a television series starring Raymond Burr in that role was very
popular and ran for many years on television.

However, he also wrote two other series of novels. One reversed the Perry
Mason trope; one of the novels in that series was "The D.A. Draws a Circle",
and the titles of the other novels in it followed a similar pattern. Here, it's
a district attorney who solves cases, and battles a corrupt shyster.

Another one was about a fictional team of private investigators - Bertha Cool
and Donald Lam. These were written under the pen name "A. A. Fair"; one of
the novels in that series was "Shills Can't Cash Chips". This is what I believed
to be the true item alluded to, since it was a very close match.

John Savard

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 21:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:38:39 PM UTC-6, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 7:59:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 4:44:51 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> > > > On 20/06/2022 16.03, William Hyde wrote:
>> > > > > On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > > > >> On Sunday, June 19, 2022 at 11:23:35 AM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > >>> So it has nothing to do with Miles Davis?
>> > >
>> > > > >> Given that the first of the Bertha Cool and Donald Lam detective novels by
>> > > > >> Erle Stanley Gardner, "The Bigger They Come", was published in 1939, and
>> > > > >> the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was released in 1957, and it was
>> > > > >> compiled from sessions recorded in 1949 and 1950... I would say that,
>> > > > >> given causality, we may take that as read.
>> > >
>> > > > > ?
>> > >
>> > > > Obviously, a allusion can only be to the earliest of two
>> > > > possibilities. Nobody will ever be able allude to something
>> > > > from 1957 when there is something from 1939.
>
>> > > That... was not my reasoning.
>> > >
>> > > Given that the company owned was "Bertha Cool Enterprises", it is
>> > > clear from its *specificity* that it is an allusion to the detective novels.
>> > >
>> > > The possibility that I was eliminating was that, perhaps, Erle Stanley
>> > > Gardner chose to name his detective "Bertha Cool" after being inspired
>> > > by Miles Davis' album. In that case, even _though_ the allusion was to
>> > > the detective novels, it could _still_ also have had something to do with
>> > > Miles Davis.
>> > >
>> > > That is what the sequence of events eliminated.
>
>> > And, furthermore, the remark to which I replied, "So it has nothing to do with
>> > Miles Davis?" implied a resigned acceptance that the allusion was to the
>> > aforementioned Erle Stanley Gardner novels, and hence I was not addressing
>> > the question of what the original allusion was to, only the _remaining_ question
>> > of whether or not it might still have something to do with Miles Davis anyways.
>
>> ?
>
>Okay, you got me. I can't guess what isn't crystal clear here.
>
>This thread began with a post by Robert Woodward. It talks about a story titled
>'Goblin Market'. In that story, a character is sent to work for "Bertha Cool Enterprises"
>by his aunt Bertha. Mr. Woodward notes that, since the author was born in 1948,
>the reference wasn't a coincidence.
>
>However, he doesn't explain what the reference was.
>
>There were some posts in response in which the idea that the reference was to
>the Miles Davis album "Birth of the Cool" was expressed.
>
>However, other posts hinted at another possible reference, which I believe is
>the correct one. Erle Stanley Gardner, a well-known writer of mystery novels,
>is famous for having been the creator of the fictional defense lawyer Perry
>Mason, and a television series starring Raymond Burr in that role was very
>popular and ran for many years on television.
>
>However, he also wrote two other series of novels. One reversed the Perry
>Mason trope; one of the novels in that series was "The D.A. Draws a Circle",
>and the titles of the other novels in it followed a similar pattern. Here, it's
>a district attorney who solves cases, and battles a corrupt shyster.
>
>Another one was about a fictional team of private investigators - Bertha Cool
>and Donald Lam. These were written under the pen name "A. A. Fair"; one of
>the novels in that series was "Shills Can't Cash Chips". This is what I believed
>to be the true item alluded to, since it was a very close match.

Yes, so simple an identification /does/ appear to have produced a lot
of discussion.

Examination of the data in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erle_Stanley_Gardner_bibliography>
reveals the existence of eight series of novels:
Cool and Lam
Doug Selby
Ed Jenkins
Gramps Wiggins
Perry Mason
Sam Moraine
Sidney Griff
Terry Clane
several of them under (distinct) pseudonyms, plus even more series of
novelettes and short stories (some also using pseudonyms).

There were also several collections, some older and some more recent.
But I won't be looking at those until I get through the novels (well,
the ones on Kindle, anyway).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."