I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.

Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
the other ships in his fleet.

The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
scriptwriter's or producer's imagination? And it looks a lot like the
sort of telescope that e.g. Horatio Hornblower would have used, which
would have been achromatic, not invented until the mid-1700s.

It's supposed to be a historical dramatization, but as it has introduced
time travel or alternate time lines, I guess it could also qualify as SF
due to the above.

--
Mike Dworetsky

Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>
> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
> the other ships in his fleet.
>
> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
> years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
> scriptwriter's or producer's imagination?

Improved by Galileo, I heard, from reports of its use by others. So the first telescope was older. But, yeah, the Naissance was renning, I don't think even a military secret would last three generations.
Did the ship have the traditional wheel, too? That was a later innovation to control the rudder.

--
-Jack

On Tuesday, 12 July 2022 at 09:10:50 UTC+1, Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>
> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
> the other ships in his fleet.
>
> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
> years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
> scriptwriter's or producer's imagination? And it looks a lot like the
> sort of telescope that e.g. Horatio Hornblower would have used, which
> would have been achromatic, not invented until the mid-1700s.
>
> It's supposed to be a historical dramatization, but as it has introduced
> time travel or alternate time lines, I guess it could also qualify as SF
> due to the above.

I think the pocket telescope (that you don't have to wear
special trousers for) must date to around Lewis Carroll's
_Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_ (1865), in which
it's described...

Actually, when did they invent pockets (floor length or
regular)?

On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:10:41 +0100, Michael Dworetsky
<platinum198@btinternet.com> wrote:

>I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
>Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
>Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>
>Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
>Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
>produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
>the other ships in his fleet.
>
>The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
>scriptwriter's or producer's imagination? And it looks a lot like the
>sort of telescope that e.g. Horatio Hornblower would have used, which
>would have been achromatic, not invented until the mid-1700s.
>
>It's supposed to be a historical dramatization, but as it has introduced
>time travel or alternate time lines, I guess it could also qualify as SF
>due to the above.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_telescope> gives the
first patent application for it was in 1608 in Holland, the section
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_telescope#Claims_of_prior_invention>
has a nice long run-on sentence dating the invention to 1590. And
several others giving even earlier dates for other possibilities, but
none (except perhaps Da Vinci, who drew something like it but not
arranged as a telescope is arranged) are old enough.

This, of course, pretty much confirms your point that Magellan is most
unlikely to have had one. Well, unless he had access to something Da
Vinci or Frascatoro created. Even so, Hornblower's telescope, no
doubt, represented further developement, as you note.

It is, I suppose, possible that they are following a written source
and got the mistake from there. I am currently reading the second
Marie Antoinette novel by Dumas (in translation, of course) and Joseph
Belsamo is exercising a lot of control over people by means of
"electric currents" -- an early theory of hypnotism (Mesmerism) which,
when the books were written, may have been the current explanation but
which now make the books read as alternate history novels (and so
Science Fiction).

The film /Overlord/ is a very exciting small-unit-behind-the-lines
film which involves evil Nazis creating superhumans who our heroes
must (of course) stop. But it appears to be set in an alternate
history, where the US Army was integrated racially in, say, 1920
rather than 1948. Whether this is deliberate or whether the people in
charge had no idea of the reality of the 1940s Army is unknown.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <m4KdncBYU90fsVD_nZ2dnUU7-ePNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>years or so (by Galileo)...

(Hal Heydt)
Galileo heard about the invention by someone in Holland and then
made his own version. So...not really invented by Galileo.

Per the 1966 edition of _American Practical Navigator_,
originally by Nathaniel Bowdich, p. 50, the telescope was
invented by Hans Lippershey in about 1608.

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 10:02:05 AM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 12 July 2022 at 09:10:50 UTC+1, Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> > I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
> > Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
> > Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
> >
> > Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
> > Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
> > produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
> > the other ships in his fleet.
> >
> > The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
> > years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
> > scriptwriter's or producer's imagination? And it looks a lot like the
> > sort of telescope that e.g. Horatio Hornblower would have used, which
> > would have been achromatic, not invented until the mid-1700s.
> >
> > It's supposed to be a historical dramatization, but as it has introduced
> > time travel or alternate time lines, I guess it could also qualify as SF
> > due to the above.
> I think the pocket telescope (that you don't have to wear
> special trousers for) must date to around Lewis Carroll's
> _Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_ (1865), in which
> it's described...
>
> Actually, when did they invent pockets (floor length or
> regular)?

'Fichets', cloth pouches worn on a belt inside the surcoat or dress, date to the 13th century.
They were accessed by slits sewn into the garment. Modern sewn-in pockets appeared in
mens clothing in the 16th century, but the ladies have still not reached pocket parity.

pt

Paul S Person wrote:

> I am currently reading the second
> Marie Antoinette novel by Dumas (in translation, of course) and Joseph
> Belsamo is exercising a lot of control over people by means of
> "electric currents" -- an early theory of hypnotism (Mesmerism) which,
> when the books were written, may have been the current explanation but
> which now make the books read as alternate history novels (and so
> Science Fiction).

Did not using this theory make them speculative fiction at the time?
Unless, of course it was only the characters' explanation.

I once read some naive sf by someone with a super-explosive.
It was super because... it was super. I had an idea to dismiss
the explanation of is as from an unreliable narrator, and
relate it to some actual explosive. IIRC, I was defeated with
the detail that a layer of water would protect a target.

--
-Jack

On 12/07/2022 14:43, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Michael Dworetsky wrote:
>> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
>> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
>> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>>
>> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
>> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
>> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
>> the other ships in his fleet.
>>
>> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>> years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
>> scriptwriter's or producer's imagination?
>
> Improved by Galileo, I heard, from reports of its use by others. So the first telescope was older. But, yeah, the Naissance was renning, I don't think even a military secret would last three generations.
> Did the ship have the traditional wheel, too? That was a later innovation to control the rudder.
>

No, they had a steering paddle or rudder controlled with a huge lever at
the centre of the main deck near the poop.

--
Mike Dworetsky

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> The film /Overlord/ is a very exciting small-unit-behind-the-lines
> film which involves evil Nazis creating superhumans who our heroes
> must (of course) stop. But it appears to be set in an alternate
> history, where the US Army was integrated racially in, say, 1920
> rather than 1948. Whether this is deliberate or whether the people in
> charge had no idea of the reality of the 1940s Army is unknown.

Well, if it was a movie about creating superhumans, rather than a movie
about D-Day, it's _already_ set in an alternate reality. So it makes sense that
racial integration would be achieved at an earlier time in a world with comic
book-level scientific advances.

John Savard

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 12:23:13 PM UTC-6, Hal Heydt wrote:
> In article <m4KdncBYU90fsVD_...@supernews.com>,
> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
> >The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
> >years or so (by Galileo)...

> (Hal Heydt)
> Galileo heard about the invention by someone in Holland and then
> made his own version. So...not really invented by Galileo.

> Per the 1966 edition of _American Practical Navigator_,
> originally by Nathaniel Bowdich, p. 50, the telescope was
> invented by Hans Lippershey in about 1608.

Yes, and it was the invention by Lippershey that Galileo heard
about. And Galileo invented _opera glasses_ while Lippershey
invented the _real_ telescope, too.

However, *eyeglasses* were invented in the 13th Century, so
it's not *utterly* impossible that people could have made telescopes
without the invention being recorded before that time.

John Savard

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 4:40:06 PM UTC-5, Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> On 12/07/2022 14:43, Jack Bohn wrote:
> > Michael Dworetsky wrote:
> >> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
> >> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
> >> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
> >>
> >> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
> >> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
> >> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
> >> the other ships in his fleet.
> >>
> >> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
> >> years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
> >> scriptwriter's or producer's imagination?
> >
> > Improved by Galileo, I heard, from reports of its use by others. So the first telescope was older. But, yeah, the Naissance was renning, I don't think even a military secret would last three generations.
> > Did the ship have the traditional wheel, too? That was a later innovation to control the rudder.
> >
> No, they had a steering paddle or rudder controlled with a huge lever at
> the center of the main deck near the poop.
>
Was this a tiller lever, rigidly attached to the rudder so that it swung side-to-side on a vertical axis keeping the same height
over the deck? This arrangement was used on the first ships with stern rudders such as the Hansa Cog and of course is
still common. At some point before the invention of the steering wheel larger ships had a compound leverage system
where the helmsman moved a "whipstaff" pivoted below the deck on a horizontal axis parallel to the long axis of the ship,
and was in turn linked to rotate the rudder on its vertical axis.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On 13/07/2022 05:54, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 4:40:06 PM UTC-5, Michael Dworetsky wrote:
>> On 12/07/2022 14:43, Jack Bohn wrote:
>>> Michael Dworetsky wrote:
>>>> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
>>>> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
>>>> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>>>>
>>>> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
>>>> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
>>>> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
>>>> the other ships in his fleet.
>>>>
>>>> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>>>> years or so (by Galileo), so where did he get it, except from the
>>>> scriptwriter's or producer's imagination?
>>>
>>> Improved by Galileo, I heard, from reports of its use by others. So the first telescope was older. But, yeah, the Naissance was renning, I don't think even a military secret would last three generations.
>>> Did the ship have the traditional wheel, too? That was a later innovation to control the rudder.
>>>
>> No, they had a steering paddle or rudder controlled with a huge lever at
>> the center of the main deck near the poop.
>>
> Was this a tiller lever, rigidly attached to the rudder so that it swung side-to-side on a vertical axis keeping the same height
> over the deck? This arrangement was used on the first ships with stern rudders such as the Hansa Cog and of course is
> still common. At some point before the invention of the steering wheel larger ships had a compound leverage system
> where the helmsman moved a "whipstaff" pivoted below the deck on a horizontal axis parallel to the long axis of the ship,
> and was in turn linked to rotate the rudder on its vertical axis.

I couldn't tell from the episodes how the lever actually controlled the
rudder itself. But the lever was moved from side to side (tilted, not
slid) It sounds as it it might have been the latter method you describe.

--
Mike Dworetsky

>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist

On 12/07/2022 19:12, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m4KdncBYU90fsVD_nZ2dnUU7-ePNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
> Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>> The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>> years or so (by Galileo)...
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Galileo heard about the invention by someone in Holland and then
> made his own version. So...not really invented by Galileo.
>
> Per the 1966 edition of _American Practical Navigator_,
> originally by Nathaniel Bowdich, p. 50, the telescope was
> invented by Hans Lippershey in about 1608.

OK, yes, I knew about Lippershey, and there were suggestions that
someone in England invented a reflecting telescope even earlier that the
refracting telescope. But Galileo also tried to sell the telescope to
the commercial traders (AIUI) so they could spot cargoes coming in
before others, and improve their market position before the ship docked.
Not to mention naval commanders.

--
Mike Dworetsky

On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 11:37:54 -0700 (PDT), Jack Bohn
<jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> I am currently reading the second
>> Marie Antoinette novel by Dumas (in translation, of course) and Joseph
>> Belsamo is exercising a lot of control over people by means of
>> "electric currents" -- an early theory of hypnotism (Mesmerism) which,
>> when the books were written, may have been the current explanation but
>> which now make the books read as alternate history novels (and so
>> Science Fiction).
>
>Did not using this theory make them speculative fiction at the time?
>Unless, of course it was only the characters' explanation.

It's pretty clearly the author's explanation. Unlike, say, the
magician (Belsamo, said to be fated to be known to history as
Cagliostro) being able to create gold by melting its components in a
retort in a very hot fire, which the author allows may have been gold
to begin with and his claim to produce it only a claim to impress
another character.

Interestingly, Belsamo (as "Count Fenix") claims to have learned how
to do this a few hundred years earlier, with his then-student Nicolas
Flamel. Who, of course, appears in Rowling.

But as to mesmerism, it apparently is depicted as it was the
explanation in the 18th and into the 19th century:
<https://www.bing.com/search?q=dumas+pere&form=ANNTH1&refig=33ed665170814966a476e405cdecbe5b&sp=1&qs=CT&pq=dumas+pere&sc=8-10&cvid=33ed665170814966a476e405cdecbe5b>.
So it was probably an explanation that people believed was correct
when the novel was written.

So, no, I would not say that this as SF. I would say it is a
19th-century set of romance novels about Marie Antoinette in
18th-century France. With a fair number of other historical persons
mentioned in it.

Although, since it was written in 1846-48, which appears to be before
Verne. I don't think I've ever seen Dumas listed as an SF author, but
Verne certainly is.

It reads to me like alternate-history SF now because we no longer
believe that hypnotism involves "electrical currents" (in the article
cited at occuasionally in the books referred to as "magnetic" instead
of "electrical") which can control a human being from a distance and
also through doors and ceilings. Apparently, it took a while to figure
out what was /really/ going on.

>I once read some naive sf by someone with a super-explosive.
>It was super because... it was super. I had an idea to dismiss
>the explanation of is as from an unreliable narrator, and
>relate it to some actual explosive. IIRC, I was defeated with
>the detail that a layer of water would protect a target.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 20:32:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 12:23:13 PM UTC-6, Hal Heydt wrote:
>> In article <m4KdncBYU90fsVD_...@supernews.com>,
>> Michael Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >The obvious problem is that telescopes were not invented for another 90
>> >years or so (by Galileo)...
>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Galileo heard about the invention by someone in Holland and then
>> made his own version. So...not really invented by Galileo.
>
>> Per the 1966 edition of _American Practical Navigator_,
>> originally by Nathaniel Bowdich, p. 50, the telescope was
>> invented by Hans Lippershey in about 1608.
>
>Yes, and it was the invention by Lippershey that Galileo heard
>about. And Galileo invented _opera glasses_ while Lippershey
>invented the _real_ telescope, too.
>
>However, *eyeglasses* were invented in the 13th Century, so
>it's not *utterly* impossible that people could have made telescopes
>without the invention being recorded before that time.

But not, surely, something that Horatio Hornblower might have used.

Something rather more ... primitive.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 12/07/2022 13.31, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 10:02:05 AM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 12 July 2022 at 09:10:50 UTC+1, Michael Dworetsky wrote:
>>> I just watched the first episode of this series about Ferdinand
>>> Magellan's discovery of the Magellan Straits and the circumnavigation of
>>> Earth. This took place in 1519-1521.
>>>
>>> Near the end of Episode 1, as the small fleet of ships embarks from
>>> Seville, captain (or admiral?) Magellan scans the horizon, and proudly
>>> produces from his pocket a fine naval telescope, with which he inspects
>>> the other ships in his fleet.

>> I think the pocket telescope (that you don't have to wear
>> special trousers for) must date to around Lewis Carroll's
>> _Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_ (1865), in which
>> it's described...
>>
>> Actually, when did they invent pockets (floor length or
>> regular)?
>
> 'Fichets', cloth pouches worn on a belt inside the surcoat or dress, date to the 13th century.
> They were accessed by slits sewn into the garment. Modern sewn-in pockets appeared in
> mens clothing in the 16th century, but the ladies have still not reached pocket parity.

Someplace in _The Fall of the Towers_, a non-society woman is
surreptitiously brought to a society ball. Her sponsor (so to
speak) provides her with a gown.

She's surprised to find that it has pockets, since the impression
is always given that society women are too high-class to have
anything so useful.

Her sponsor points out that the founder of Toron were mostly pirates
and hence extremely pragmatic.

--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.