People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.

Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)

Anybody offer an earlier example?

--
-Jack

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>
> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>
> Anybody offer an earlier example?
>

Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"

October 1961 in GALAXY

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol

....had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.

--
Kevin R

On 7/14/2022 10:34 AM, Jack Bohn wrote:
> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>
> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>
> Anybody offer an earlier example?

A much later story is "Mirror Dance" published in 1995, set partially on
the planet of Jackson's Whole were one of the barons will clone you,
grow your clone for a couple of years using accelerators, and then place
your brain into your clone. The process usually works and the clone
brain is thrown away.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671876465

Lynn

Kevrob wrote:
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> > People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
> >
> > Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement.. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
> >
> > Anybody offer an earlier example?
> >
> Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"
>
> October 1961 in GALAXY
>
> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
>
> ...had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.

No, there the victim is at least a convicted criminal. No matter how unfairly (Larry Niven's 1967 "The Jigsaw Man" had organ harvesting as the sentence for unsafe driving) it is a different level of unfairness to being created for it.

--
-Jack

On 2022-07-14 12:49 p.m., Jack Bohn wrote:
> Kevrob wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>>>
>>> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>>>
>>> Anybody offer an earlier example?
>>>
>> Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"
>>
>> October 1961 in GALAXY
>>
>> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
>>
>> ...had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.
>
> No, there the victim is at least a convicted criminal. No matter how unfairly (Larry Niven's 1967 "The Jigsaw Man" had organ harvesting as the sentence for unsafe driving) it is a different level of unfairness to being created for it.
>

TV tropes has a claim that Known Space had a woman named Jan Corben who
would do brain transplants into her clones. Doesn't ring a bell.

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 5:18:23 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2022-07-14 12:49 p.m., Jack Bohn wrote:
> > Kevrob wrote:
> >> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
> >>>
> >>> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
> >>>
> >>> Anybody offer an earlier example?
> >>>
> >> Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"
> >>
> >> October 1961 in GALAXY
> >>
> >> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
> >>
> >> ...had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.
> >
> > No, there the victim is at least a convicted criminal. No matter how unfairly (Larry Niven's 1967 "The Jigsaw Man" had organ harvesting as the sentence for unsafe driving) it is a different level of unfairness to being created for it.
> >
> TV tropes has a claim that Known Space had a woman named Jan Corben who
> would do brain transplants into her clones. Doesn't ring a bell.

Not sure of the name, but there is a criminal's brain transplant in one of the Gil the ARM stories.
Can't recall if it was a clone.

pt

On 7/14/2022 10:34 AM, Jack Bohn wrote:
> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>
> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>
> Anybody offer an earlier example?

"The Ship Who Sang" by Anne McCaffrey, published in 1969, had a brain
with a severely stunted body in a titanium shell as the pilot for a
space ship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ship_Who_Sang

Lynn

Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>
> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>
> Anybody offer an earlier example?
>

Jack Vance's _To Live Forever_ (1956) is in the same ballpark.

On Thursday, 14 July 2022 at 22:54:19 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 5:18:23 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2022-07-14 12:49 p.m., Jack Bohn wrote:
> > > Kevrob wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
> > >>>
> > >>> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
> > >>>
> > >>> Anybody offer an earlier example?
> > >>>
> > >> Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"
> > >>
> > >> October 1961 in GALAXY
> > >>
> > >> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054
> > >>
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
> > >>
> > >> ...had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.
> > >
> > > No, there the victim is at least a convicted criminal. No matter how unfairly (Larry Niven's 1967 "The Jigsaw Man" had organ harvesting as the sentence for unsafe driving) it is a different level of unfairness to being created for it.
> > >
> > TV tropes has a claim that Known Space had a woman named Jan Corben who
> > would do brain transplants into her clones. Doesn't ring a bell.
> Not sure of the name, but there is a criminal's brain transplant in one of the Gil the ARM stories.
> Can't recall if it was a clone.

Not if it's this one. Gjb evpu grrantref jrer xvqanccrq,
gur xvqanccre genafcynagrq uvf bja oenva vagb bar bs
gur ivpgvzf gb rfpncr whfgvpr.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Equilateral>,
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45650>:

"Identity" (1945).
"350 years after the invention of the matter duplicator,
the technology has been improved to the point where
human beings can be duplicated, and it is common
medical practice for surgeons to test their surgical
procedures on duplicates of their patients before
operating on the originals. As a result, the greatest
insult that can be offered to a person is to claim that
they are a duplicate rather than the original (the slang
expression is "dupe"). This is the reason identical twins
such as Calvin and Benjamin Blair hate each other."

As far as I remember, tissue transplants aren't mentioned.
I say "tissue" because if you duplicate a sick patient,
then you have two patients with the same organ problems,
so no organ donor. I'm curious whether readers' letters
to _Astounding_ did consider possibilities.

I suppose you'd anaesthetise the original patient, duplicate
them, operate, and if they live, good, but you probably don't
let the duplicate wake up... Also, I think surgeons would
say that they /don't need/ to do that most of the time.
Although... If you want to know how much cancer a patient
has, it would be convenient to make a patient copy and cut
them in thin slices. Autopsy first, surgery after, same session?

If the matter duplicator could /record/ a patient at an
earlier healthy state of life, that would work?

At the other end in 2005, spoiler:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Let_Me_Go_(novel)>
And
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_(2005_film)>

Another spoiler:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Families_(1985_TV_series)>
Not clones but blood relatives...

Weren't we recently looking at some zany things that
happened in soap operas... Clones? Or in _Dark Shadows_
it would be a doppelganger.

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>
> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>
> Anybody offer an earlier example?
>
> --
> -Jack

Heinlein's Time Enough for Love (1973) has organ transplants from clones. The clones are force grown and never wake up though. Some of the planets are nasty enough that I expect they could easily be shown to do it the Jackson Hole way and just let the clones grow as people.

Greg

On 7/15/2022 1:54 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Thursday, 14 July 2022 at 22:54:19 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 5:18:23 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2022-07-14 12:49 p.m., Jack Bohn wrote:
>>>> Kevrob wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anybody offer an earlier example?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Cordwainer Smith: "A Planet Called Shayol"
>>>>>
>>>>> October 1961 in GALAXY
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41054
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
>>>>>
>>>>> ...had organ harvesting of mutated convicts.
>>>>
>>>> No, there the victim is at least a convicted criminal. No matter how unfairly (Larry Niven's 1967 "The Jigsaw Man" had organ harvesting as the sentence for unsafe driving) it is a different level of unfairness to being created for it.
>>>>
>>> TV tropes has a claim that Known Space had a woman named Jan Corben who
>>> would do brain transplants into her clones. Doesn't ring a bell.
>> Not sure of the name, but there is a criminal's brain transplant in one of the Gil the ARM stories.
>> Can't recall if it was a clone.
>
> Not if it's this one. Gjb evpu grrantref jrer xvqanccrq,
> gur xvqanccre genafcynagrq uvf bja oenva vagb bar bs
> gur ivpgvzf gb rfpncr whfgvpr.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Equilateral>,
> <http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45650>:
>
> "Identity" (1945).
> "350 years after the invention of the matter duplicator,
> the technology has been improved to the point where
> human beings can be duplicated, and it is common
> medical practice for surgeons to test their surgical
> procedures on duplicates of their patients before
> operating on the originals. As a result, the greatest
> insult that can be offered to a person is to claim that
> they are a duplicate rather than the original (the slang
> expression is "dupe"). This is the reason identical twins
> such as Calvin and Benjamin Blair hate each other."
>

For those who don't care to be considered sub human if they
don't use codes to hide their messages that is from one of
George O. Smith's Venus Equilateral stories. I think the
last one. You can find it in "The Complete Venus Equilateral."

Bill

On Friday, 15 July 2022 at 00:00:32 UTC+1, David Duffy wrote:
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
> >
> > Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement.. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
> >
> > Anybody offer an earlier example?
> >
> Jack Vance's _To Live Forever_ (1956) is in the same ballpark.

It's not transplant surgery though (if I'm told right here)
<https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/468018.To_Live_Forever>

"The fifth level is Amaranth, and if you reach that level
you are put into "seclusion like a caterpillar" where a
metamorphosis takes place and you develop the body
of a 19 year old. This person will remain at that age
forever with all the experience and knowledge he or she
had previously. If a person at Amaranth is killed or the
body destroyed there is a clone with all the updated
cognition, memory and personality traits of the original
that takes its place. Each person at Amaranth has
five back up clones called relics or surrogates."

It may be a secret that the protagonist has
murdered an Amaranth, but now I'm wondering
/how/ they did that. Maybe it was only one of
the set that was murdered.

And are these clones stored somewhere or do
you share an apartment...

In article <f42f4581-d6ab-4a43-bff1-5f7bb2f0fa84n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Friday, 15 July 2022 at 00:00:32 UTC+1, David Duffy wrote:
>> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into
>people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first
>I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the
>April 1977 Galaxy.
>> >
>> > Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight
>Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of
>a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically
>whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be
>started. Only at need?)
>> >
>> > Anybody offer an earlier example?
>> >
>> Jack Vance's _To Live Forever_ (1956) is in the same ballpark.
>
>It's not transplant surgery though (if I'm told right here)
><https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/468018.To_Live_Forever>
>
>"The fifth level is Amaranth, and if you reach that level
>you are put into "seclusion like a caterpillar" where a
>metamorphosis takes place and you develop the body
>of a 19 year old. This person will remain at that age
>forever with all the experience and knowledge he or she
>had previously. If a person at Amaranth is killed or the
>body destroyed there is a clone with all the updated
>cognition, memory and personality traits of the original
>that takes its place. Each person at Amaranth has
>five back up clones called relics or surrogates."
>
>It may be a secret that the protagonist has
>murdered an Amaranth, but now I'm wondering
>/how/ they did that. Maybe it was only one of
>the set that was murdered.
>
>And are these clones stored somewhere or do
>you share an apartment...

That never worked out well for Calvin.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

David Johnston wrote:
> >> On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-4, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> People, cloned from some other person, and allowed to grow into people of their own, but just an organ bank for the original. The first I ever encountered was the story "Night Runners" by Janet Haffley in the April 1977 Galaxy.
> >>>
> >>> Galaxy had by this time published (but I missed) Varley's Eight Worlds stories where recorded memories are played back into the mind of a clone as life insurance. This is a different idea, basically whole-body replacement. (Also, I don't remember when the clone would be started. Only at need?)
> >>>
> >>> Anybody offer an earlier example?
> >
> TV tropes has a claim that Known Space had a woman named Jan Corben who
> would do brain transplants into her clones. Doesn't ring a bell.

I can think of a story where the age of one of the characters is a late revelation. Looking at the last few pages of it, it seems to be purely boosterspice and anonymity. This is well after the era of the ARM, and Earth has several workarounds to transplants and anti-rejection medicines, as sent out in _A Gift from Earth_, but still, it's not like the autodocs would forget any skills, and Earth could do that whole brain-in-a-jar The Ship Who Sang thing while still exploring the Solar System, as in "Becalmed in Hell". (Was it only with _Ringworld_ that he started noticing he'd been collecting impossible technologies?)

--
-Jack