Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/

Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
front of SFF.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2022-08-26, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/

IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
about the only thing I remember from that novel.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

In article <slrntghn8g.1m1q.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-08-26, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>
>IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>

_Kings of the Wyld (The Band)_ by Nicholas Eames is a cracking good book
that uses the Mercenary Band/Rock Band metaphor to great effect.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 8/26/2022 9:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>
> Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
> front of SFF.

Zero for five here. Of course, there is the "Ready Player One"
documentary which mentions many 1980s songs.

Lynn

On Friday, 26 August 2022 at 16:30:08 UTC+1, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-08-26, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> > https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
> about the only thing I remember from that novel.

Or is that the one where the noun for a song
of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
or known in the story? (See also "jeremiad" which
is the same, in real life, but not requiring music.)

On 27/08/22 02:05, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>
> Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
> front of SFF.

I enjoyed The Armageddon Rag but my favourite in this category is Utopia
Avenue but I am biased as David Mitchell is one of my favourite authors
so there is a familiarity as well as frequent references to places and
characters from previous novels with a continuing under theme. I don't
know if I would recommend it to someone without advising them to read
earlier works in publication order.
The (not dysfunctional) band encounters murder, mystery and perhaps
influence from a supernatural power but the emphasis is on the
characters and more ordinary events such as their stardom and money.
Wikipedia has a short interesting article.
I recommend it because I enjoy his writing so much but to really treat
yourself, I think you should read David Mitchell's novels in publication
order.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 16:44:45 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

>
>On 27/08/22 02:05, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>>
>> Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
>> front of SFF.
>
>I enjoyed The Armageddon Rag but my favourite in this category is Utopia
>Avenue but I am biased as David Mitchell is one of my favourite authors
>so there is a familiarity as well as frequent references to places and
>characters from previous novels with a continuing under theme. I don't
>know if I would recommend it to someone without advising them to read
>earlier works in publication order.
>The (not dysfunctional) band encounters murder, mystery and perhaps
>influence from a supernatural power but the emphasis is on the
>characters and more ordinary events such as their stardom and money.
>Wikipedia has a short interesting article.
>I recommend it because I enjoy his writing so much but to really treat
>yourself, I think you should read David Mitchell's novels in publication
>order.

I recently read his complete works over the space of about 2 months in
a fairly random order and I concur, since the main plotlines of some
novels were spoilered by throwaway lines in others.

I enjoyed Utopia Avenue, but still can't get my head round David Bowie
using the phrase "I was like..." (in the late sixties) to describe his
reaction to something during an anecdote. I also could have sworn that
someone else mentions wanting to be "the best version of myself" but
have been unable to find it again, so must have imagined it.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>
> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
> or known in the story?

That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
largely forgotten then.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>
>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>> or known in the story?
>
>That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>largely forgotten then.
>
Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".

(Somehow Wolf 359, despite being recent, manages to sound like it
was written in the 1990s)

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 9:05:42 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>
> Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
> front of SFF.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Also by Bradley Denton is "Buddy Holly is Alive and Well On Ganymede"
There is also "Glimpses" by Lew Shiner

In article <teajvi$9cs$1@reader2.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
>https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/

Of course I immediately thought of Cat Valente's SPACE OPERA, a book
that I bounced off of *twice*. (The first time because it read to me
like a pastiche of Douglas Adams, the second time because I stopped
caring how it turned out.)

>Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
>front of SFF.

Definitely not "vintage", however, although I suppose the Eurovision
Song Contest (b. 1956) is slightly older than what we'd call "classic
rock" (ca. 1970) today.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>
>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>> or known in the story?
>>
>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>> largely forgotten then.
>>
> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".

That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
Wilson was worse.

>
> (Somehow Wolf 359, despite being recent, manages to sound like it
> was written in the 1990s)
>

In article <teeobj$9b7$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> > Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
> >>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
> >>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
> >>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
> >>>
> >>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
> >>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
> >>> or known in the story?
> >>
> >> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
> >> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
> >> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
> >> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
> >> largely forgotten then.
> >>
> > Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
> > thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
> > them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
> > Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
> > the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
> > is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>
> That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
> was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
> Wilson was worse.
>

Which Bush by the way? Assuming the younger Bush is the one in question,
I would think that both McKinley and Harding could be considered worse
(depending on criteria, McKinley as imperialist - Hawaii and
Spanish-American War and aftermath - and Harding as puppet).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <teajvi$9cs$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> >https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/

> >Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
> >front of SFF.
> Definitely not "vintage", however, although I suppose the Eurovision
> Song Contest (b. 1956) is slightly older than what we'd call "classic
> rock" (ca. 1970) today.

"Vintage" can be a synonym for "classic" in meaning "old," but it can also mean "of a particular year." Of course, unlike grapes, a novel has influences and possibly growth beyond one season, so there can be imprecision in the year. I noticed his sample set had a mode vintage or 1987. I'm not going to go back and get the data to calculate the median and the mean, but I suspect mid '80s.

For me, poetry is incompatible with speedreading, and I'd have no idea what an unheard song would sound like from quoting the lyrics. (There's an inner monolog thought from the tone-deaf Horatio Hornblower about songs just having arbitrary pauses or stretched out words. This may apply.) On the other hand, I do remember coming across a quoted song I did know, Tom Leher's "Merry Minuet". The early pages of the book had a not identifying the song by name and writer and saying it was used with permission. At that age, I thought it was personal permission of this Mr. Leher, (maybe it is) now I think that it mainly involves payment to a rights management company. All by way of introducing Howard Waldrop's story "Flying Saucer Rock and Roll" (vintage 1985) set at a local "battle of the bands." He writes that paying for the rights of all the lyrics he wanted to quote would be more that the story would sell for, so he substituted nonsense syllables, but the readers should be able to recognize the songs. Not around here!

--
-Jack

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>
>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>>> or known in the story?
>>>
>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>
>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>
>That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
>was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>Wilson was worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States

Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father. Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford
are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.

Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
in the bottom four.

https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall

Buchanan is consistently last.

I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
loose association with organized crime in Missouri.

In article <robertaw-95F9C8.21501927082022@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <teeobj$9b7$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> > In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> > Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> >> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>> >>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who
>apparently
>> >>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>> >>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>> >>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>> >>> or known in the story?
>> >>
>> >> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>> >> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>> >> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>> >> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>> >> largely forgotten then.
>> >>
>> > Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>> > thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>> > them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>> > Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>> > the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>> > is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>>
>> That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then.
>Buchanan
>> was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>> Wilson was worse.
>>
>
>Which Bush by the way? Assuming the younger Bush is the one in question,
>I would think that both McKinley and Harding could be considered worse
>(depending on criteria, McKinley as imperialist - Hawaii and
>Spanish-American War and aftermath - and Harding as puppet).
>
I am sure there's an elegantly named fallacy involving immediacy,
in which the actions of a dud head of government being currently
experienced loom larger than the worse actions of a HoG whose
adminstration was over before the author was born.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 8/28/2022 9:21 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <robertaw-95F9C8.21501927082022@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> In article <teeobj$9b7$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>>>> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who
>> apparently
>>>>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>>>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>>>>> or known in the story?
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>>>>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>>>> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>>>>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>>>
>>>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>>>> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>>>> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>>>> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>>>> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>>>> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>>>
>>> That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then.
>> Buchanan
>>> was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>>> Wilson was worse.
>>>
>>
>> Which Bush by the way? Assuming the younger Bush is the one in question,
>> I would think that both McKinley and Harding could be considered worse
>> (depending on criteria, McKinley as imperialist - Hawaii and
>> Spanish-American War and aftermath - and Harding as puppet).
>>
> I am sure there's an elegantly named fallacy involving immediacy,
> in which the actions of a dud head of government being currently
> experienced loom larger than the worse actions of a HoG whose
> adminstration was over before the author was born.
>
Magnified by the political partisanship of the times. (There is
_always_ political partisanship. The Opposition is always worse than
the Devil, etc.)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 8:05:42 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/

Classic rock is also celebrated by the webcomic The Challenges of Zona.

However, there is a problem with the site's front page, which will no longer load.

So you have to use this URL, or something similar, to get to it:

http://barbarianprincess.com/comic/

John Savard

On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 15:25:51 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>>On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>, Christian
>>> Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who
>>>>>> apparently was an influential musician around that time. Which I
>>>>>> think is about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song of protest is "a
>>>>> dylan", possibly with no reason given or known in the story?
>>>>
>>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described the
>>>> qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>>> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when I
>>>> read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>>
>>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have thought
>>> about how dated their pop culture references would make them sound"
>>> but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture: Spider Robinson's
>>> jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as the worst American
>>> President _ever_ failed to grasp that there is no limit to bad and the
>>> most you can say is "so far".
>>
>>That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
>>was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>>Wilson was worse.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
>
> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father. Jimmy Carter and
> Gerald Ford are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.
>
> Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
> in the bottom four.
>
> https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
>
>
> Buchanan is consistently last.
>
> I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
> loose association with organized crime in Missouri.

If that was a problem then half the presidents would be in a tie for last
place. And Clinton would have to be in negative numbers. My father
owned a medium to large construction company that worked and bid on jobs
with Arkansas while he was Governor so dad got to see him at work
personally. Which led to one of the few times we voted for the same
presidential candidate. Me because he was a Democrat and dad because he
thought he was an "honest" politician (i.e. he stayed bought) and he
liked him personally.

On 28 Aug 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
(in article <3OLOK.998862$JVi.734423@fx17.iad>):

> David Johnston<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
> > > In article<slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> > > Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > > > On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
> > > > > > on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
> > > > > > was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
> > > > > > about the only thing I remember from that novel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or is that the one where the noun for a song
> > > > > of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
> > > > > or known in the story?
> > > >
> > > > That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
> > > > the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
> > > > connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
> > > > I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
> > > > largely forgotten then.
> > > Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
> > > thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
> > > them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
> > > Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
> > > the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
> > > is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
> >
> > That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
> > was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
> > Wilson was worse.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_
> States
>
> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father. Jimmy Carter and Gerald
> Ford
> are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.

I’d put Carter and Ford slightly higher, Millard and Pierce slightly lower,
and Wilson _much_ lower. GHW Bush higher, GW Bush slightly lower.

Truman would be near the top.
>
>
> Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
> in the bottom four.
>
> https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
>
> Buchanan is consistently last.
>
> I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
> loose association with organized crime in Missouri.

On 8/28/2022 10:25 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>>> Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who apparently
>>>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>>>> or known in the story?
>>>>
>>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>>>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>>> connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>>>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>>
>>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>>> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>>> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>>> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>>> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>>> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>>
>> That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then. Buchanan
>> was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>> Wilson was worse.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
>
> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father. Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford
> are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.
>
> Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
> in the bottom four.
>
> https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
>
>
> Buchanan is consistently last.
>
> I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
> loose association with organized crime in Missouri.

Any survey that does not have George Washington first is worthless in my
opinion. Washington was first asked to be King, he refused, they then
made him our first President. That makes him a solid number one in my book.

Of course, had GW agreed to be King, we would have ended up with Robert
E. Lee as our second King.

Lynn

On 8/28/2022 1:32 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 10:25 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>>>> Christian Weisgerber  <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who
>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>>>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>>>>> or known in the story?
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>>>>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>>>> connection.  Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>>>>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>>>
>>>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>>>> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>>>> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>>>> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>>>> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>>>> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>>>
>>> That's silly.  Bush wasn't even the worst president back then.  Buchanan
>>> was worse without question.  An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>>> Wilson was worse.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
>>
>> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father.  Jimmy Carter and
>> Gerald Ford
>> are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.
>>
>> Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
>> in the bottom four.
>>
>> https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
>>
>>
>> Buchanan is consistently last.
>>
>> I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
>> loose association with organized crime in Missouri.
>
> Any survey that does not have George Washington first is worthless in my
> opinion.  Washington was first asked to be King, he refused, they then
> made him our first President.  That makes him a solid number one in my
> book.
>
> Of course, had GW agreed to be King, we would have ended up with Robert
> E. Lee as our second King.
>
> Lynn

^second King^third King

Lynn

In article <0001HW.28BBEC000084E5DE700007B1738F@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>On 28 Aug 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>(in article <3OLOK.998862$JVi.734423@fx17.iad>):
>
>> David Johnston<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>> > > In article<slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> > > Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> > > > On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey
>keeps droning
>> > > > > > on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob
>Dylan, who apparently
>> > > > > > was an influential musician around that time. Which I
>think is
>> > > > > > about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>> > > > > of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>> > > > > or known in the story?
>> > > >
>> > > > That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>> > > > the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to
>make the
>> > > > connection. Either way, it struck me as extremely of its
>time when
>> > > > I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan
>was already
>> > > > largely forgotten then.
>> > > Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>> > > thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>> > > them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>> > > Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>> > > the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>> > > is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>> >
>> > That's silly. Bush wasn't even the worst president back then.
>Buchanan
>> > was worse without question. An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>> > Wilson was worse.
>>
>>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_
>> States
>>
>> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father. Jimmy
>Carter and Gerald
>> Ford
>> are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.
>
>I’d put Carter and Ford slightly higher, Millard and Pierce
>slightly lower,
>and Wilson _much_ lower. GHW Bush higher, GW Bush slightly lower.

I did like the manner in which GHWB did not bungle the end of the
Cold War into WWIII.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2022-08-28 12:32 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 10:25 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On 2022-08-27 8:18 a.m., James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <slrntgk52e.2hte.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>>>> Christian Weisgerber  <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-08-26, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, in _The Ship Who Sang_ (1969), Anne McCaffrey keeps droning
>>>>>>> on about the brilliance of some dude called Bob Dylan, who
>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>> was an influential musician around that time. Which I think is
>>>>>>> about the only thing I remember from that novel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or is that the one where the noun for a song
>>>>>> of protest is "a dylan", possibly with no reason given
>>>>>> or known in the story?
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds faintly familiar, so yes, she may have only described
>>>>> the qualities of such a song and left it to the reader to make the
>>>>> connection.  Either way, it struck me as extremely of its time when
>>>>> I read it twenty or thirty years ago, because Bob Dylan was already
>>>>> largely forgotten then.
>>>>>
>>>> Pretty sure tor won't take "five works that really should have
>>>> thought about how dated their pop culture references would make
>>>> them sound" but it would be super-easy. Not just pop culture:
>>>> Spider Robinson's jerimiad in Variable Star that posited Bush as
>>>> the worst American President _ever_ failed to grasp that there
>>>> is no limit to bad and the most you can say is "so far".
>>>
>>> That's silly.  Bush wasn't even the worst president back then.  Buchanan
>>> was worse without question.  An argument can be made that even Woodrow
>>> Wilson was worse.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
>>
>>
>> Bush Jr is in the bottom quartile, below his father.  Jimmy Carter and
>> Gerald Ford
>> are ranked (slightly) higher than GWB.
>>
>> Trump is not yet ranked on this page, but on more recent polls, he ranks
>> in the bottom four.
>>
>> https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
>>
>>
>> Buchanan is consistently last.
>>
>> I'm a bit surprised that Truman is ranked as high as he is, given his
>> loose association with organized crime in Missouri.

Presidents are ranked by historians based on what they did as president,
not before they took office.

>
> Any survey that does not have George Washington first is worthless in my
> opinion.  Washington was first asked to be King,

That's almost as much a myth as the cherry tree bit. One disgruntled
military officer suggested that he lead a bunch of people off into the
wilderness to found a kingdom. It's not like he got a realistic offer.

he refused, they then
> made him our first President.  That makes him a solid number one in my
> book.
>
> Of course, had GW agreed to be King, we would have ended up with Robert
> E. Lee as our second King.
>
> Lynn
>

On 27/08/22 20:25, Jerry Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 16:44:45 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 27/08/22 02:05, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Five SFF Books That Celebrate Classic Rock
>>> https://www.tor.com/2022/08/26/five-sff-books-that-celebrate-classic-rock/
>>>
>>> Again, what it says on the tin. Although maybe add "vintage" in
>>> front of SFF.
>>
>> I enjoyed The Armageddon Rag but my favourite in this category is Utopia
>> Avenue but I am biased as David Mitchell is one of my favourite authors
>> so there is a familiarity as well as frequent references to places and
>> characters from previous novels with a continuing under theme. I don't
>> know if I would recommend it to someone without advising them to read
>> earlier works in publication order.
>> The (not dysfunctional) band encounters murder, mystery and perhaps
>> influence from a supernatural power but the emphasis is on the
>> characters and more ordinary events such as their stardom and money.
>> Wikipedia has a short interesting article.
>> I recommend it because I enjoy his writing so much but to really treat
>> yourself, I think you should read David Mitchell's novels in publication
>> order.
>
> I recently read his complete works over the space of about 2 months in
> a fairly random order and I concur, since the main plotlines of some
> novels were spoilered by throwaway lines in others.
>
> I enjoyed Utopia Avenue, but still can't get my head round David Bowie
> using the phrase "I was like..." (in the late sixties) to describe his
> reaction to something during an anecdote. I also could have sworn that
> someone else mentions wanting to be "the best version of myself" but
> have been unable to find it again, so must have imagined it.
>

‘I [David Bowie] was with him when his first episode happened. We were
walking down Shaftesbury Avenue, and he started screaming about the
tarmac cracking and magma oozing up. For a few seconds I thought he was
joking. I was like, “Okay, Terry, it’s gone far enough.” But he meant
it. These two coppers thought he was high so...........'

The only Bowie Album I had was Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars
but I enjoyed other singles and vaguely recall from interviews that he
was very articulate as well as intelligent. Luckily I didn't notice "I
was like .." when I read it but I understand your urge to throw at wall
reaction.