re: Looking at the other guys puzzles at ICs!

I was never a fan of this practice, but it didn't bug me
enough to ever mention it (I think), however now it's out of
proportion ...

This method, if you will, doesn't really pay of in the long
run, to just copy all the time, because that way you'll always
be one step behind and you'll focus too much on the opposition
and not develop confidence in whatever it is that should
happen that _you_ should be doing.

But that's in the real world, in Survivor it's enough it
happens in one IC to have one player unfairly booted for that
and only that reason. It's not fair to that player so
shouldn't be allowed.

Life isn't fair and even Survivor cannot be 100% fair - and
everyone knows that - but then all the more reason to make it
as fair as possible.

Especially when that's so easy to do! Just put up a shield or
draw a line - "don't cross this to watch, that'll
disqualify you."

--
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 7:39:53 PM UTC-6, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> re: Looking at the other guys puzzles at ICs!
>
> I was never a fan of this practice, but it didn't bug me
> enough to ever mention it (I think), however now it's out of
> proportion ...
>
> This method, if you will, doesn't really pay of in the long
> run, to just copy all the time, because that way you'll always
> be one step behind and you'll focus too much on the opposition
> and not develop confidence in whatever it is that should
> happen that _you_ should be doing.
>
> But that's in the real world, in Survivor it's enough it
> happens in one IC to have one player unfairly booted for that
> and only that reason. It's not fair to that player so
> shouldn't be allowed.
>
> Life isn't fair and even Survivor cannot be 100% fair - and
> everyone knows that - but then all the more reason to make it
> as fair as possible.
>
> Especially when that's so easy to do! Just put up a shield or
> draw a line - "don't cross this to watch, that'll
> disqualify you."
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

We've seen tribes/players destroy their puzzles after finishing to prevent others from cheating so that's an easy solution. We've also seen tribes help another tribe to hurt the third tribe. It's good strategy and incentivizes all tribes to do their best to win.

--
Brian

Brian Smith wrote:

> We've seen tribes/players destroy their puzzles after
> finishing to prevent others from cheating so that's an
> easy solution.

But that's not possible for all puzzles and also don't prevent
one tribe from looking at the other tribe while the puzzle is
being made, often the initial step with puzzles is the most
difficult one and if one tribe gets that right the other can
easily copy that and eventually win since the rest is, or can
be, just a matter of piling blocks the fastest ...

If it's unallowed to begin with, you cancel all of that out
and the challenge remains what it should be, namely solve the
task in front of you with whatever muscles and brains you, and
not the other guys, think you have.

Make it as fair as possible! IMO

--
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 07:52:40 +0100, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
wrote:

>Brian Smith wrote:
>
>> We've seen tribes/players destroy their puzzles after
>> finishing to prevent others from cheating so that's an
>> easy solution.
>
>But that's not possible for all puzzles and also don't prevent
>one tribe from looking at the other tribe while the puzzle is
>being made, often the initial step with puzzles is the most
>difficult one and if one tribe gets that right the other can
>easily copy that and eventually win since the rest is, or can
>be, just a matter of piling blocks the fastest ...
>
>If it's unallowed to begin with, you cancel all of that out
>and the challenge remains what it should be, namely solve the
>task in front of you with whatever muscles and brains you, and
>not the other guys, think you have.
>
>Make it as fair as possible! IMO

I do agree that I would rather see the tribes succeed or fail on their
own and not copy another tribe's winning answer. That said, it's the
production teams show and if they think allowing tribes to copy or
work together makes for a better show then that's their choice even if
I disagree with it.

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 7:21:26 AM UTC-6, shawn wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 07:52:40 +0100, Emanuel Berg <in...@dataswamp.org>
> wrote:
> >Brian Smith wrote:
> >
> >> We've seen tribes/players destroy their puzzles after
> >> finishing to prevent others from cheating so that's an
> >> easy solution.
> >
> >But that's not possible for all puzzles and also don't prevent
> >one tribe from looking at the other tribe while the puzzle is
> >being made, often the initial step with puzzles is the most
> >difficult one and if one tribe gets that right the other can
> >easily copy that and eventually win since the rest is, or can
> >be, just a matter of piling blocks the fastest ...
> >
> >If it's unallowed to begin with, you cancel all of that out
> >and the challenge remains what it should be, namely solve the
> >task in front of you with whatever muscles and brains you, and
> >not the other guys, think you have.
> >
> >Make it as fair as possible! IMO
> I do agree that I would rather see the tribes succeed or fail on their
> own and not copy another tribe's winning answer. That said, it's the
> production teams show and if they think allowing tribes to copy or
> work together makes for a better show then that's their choice even if
> I disagree with it.

As long as everyone knows copying and working together is allowed I'm okay with it. You still have to beat the third tribe to be safe so it's not like copying, etc. alone will guarantee a "win." I'm pretty sure we've seen tribes copy the winner and still not figure out a puzzle faster than the tribe that didn't copy. The running back and forth between stations can also make for good TV.

--
Brian

Brian Smith wrote:

> As long as everyone knows copying and working together is
> allowed I'm okay with it. You still have to beat the third
> tribe to be safe so it's not like copying, etc. alone will
> guarantee a "win." I'm pretty sure we've seen tribes copy
> the winner and still not figure out a puzzle faster than the
> tribe that didn't copy.

But it can happen and if it can it either has happened already
(in 44 seasons, US alone!) or it will happen. And that's
unfair so it shouldn't be allowed.

It also sends the wrong message to the kids watching, if
anyone is concerned with such aspects.

> The running back and forth between stations can also make
> for good TV.

Running back and forth is good TV?

Hardly. The reason they allow it is so people will be
angry/frustrated - the same reason they take the flint from
the loosing tribe nowadays - to insert more bad blood and have
people more vicious in their gameplay because of that.

I'm not against vicious gameplay but I consider the game
vicious enough, and above all, I'm against everything that
makes the game less fair.

--
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:24:03 +0100, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
wrote:

>Brian Smith wrote:
>
>> The running back and forth between stations can also make
>> for good TV.
>
>Running back and forth is good TV?
>
>Hardly. The reason they allow it is so people will be
>angry/frustrated - the same reason they take the flint from
>the loosing tribe nowadays - to insert more bad blood and have
>people more vicious in their gameplay because of that.

Big Brother does that all the time though with BB it's usually along a
board or other wooden path about a foot off the ground where they have
to go back to the beginning if they fall.

And I agree with you that taking the flint is more about raising
frustration and bad blood rather than bad attitude with respect to
food.

>I'm not against vicious gameplay but I consider the game
>vicious enough, and above all, I'm against everything that
>makes the game less fair.

+1