“X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?”
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/

Hat tip to:
https://www.drudgereport.com/

Lynn

I'm still hoping for a manned version. I want the Dyna-Soar back!

John Savard

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?”
>
> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>
> Hat tip to:
> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>
> Lynn
The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize "Experimental"

On 9/2/2022 11:44 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?”
>>
>> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>>
>> Hat tip to:
>> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>>
>> Lynn
> The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize "Experimental"

There are two X-37Bs. Six more are reputedly being built.
https://www.space.com/x-37b-military-space-plane-surprising-facts

Lynn

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> writes:
>On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> =E2=80=9CX-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?=
>=E2=80=9D=20
>>=20
>> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/

>The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize "Expe=
>rimental"

There are two of them. That we know of, anyway.

The URL tagline is very misleading. It's not a nuclear bomber, nor can
it be effectively used as such regardless of what the Russians believe.

On 9/3/2022 1:12 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 11:44 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?”
>>>
>>> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>>>
>>>
>>> Hat tip to:
>>> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>>>
>>> Lynn
>> The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize
>> "Experimental"
>
> There are two X-37Bs.  Six more are reputedly being built.
>    https://www.space.com/x-37b-military-space-plane-surprising-facts
>
For military equipment that is still in the "experimental" range. They
expect to lose a number of them in testing.

Of course everyone seems to be forgetting that any aircraft who's
designation starts with "X" is by definition Experimental. When they
change it to something that doesn't start with "X" is when it is no
longer experimental.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 9/2/2022 11:44 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?”
>>>
>https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>>>
>>> Hat tip to:
>>> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>>>
>>> Lynn
>> The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize
>"Experimental"
>
>There are two X-37Bs. Six more are reputedly being built.
> https://www.space.com/x-37b-military-space-plane-surprising-facts

There's nothing about six more in your reference that I can find.

AFAIk the source for that "reputedly" is the Russian/China's "it's a
nuclear bomber and they'll have 8 by 20xx" - they can't agree even
with themselves which year though. And sometimes the claim is that the
US already HAVE 8 which seems incredibly unlikely.

Now, it's possible they have real intel that they're willing to "burn"
this way, but given that the first part is almost guaranteed to be
FLAT OUT WRONG for a multitude of reasons I see no reason to read that
much into the rest of the statement.

Parts of what the X-37B was doing was rather experimental early on
(including it's re-entry) so having two made sense, I suspect the main
question was likely "will two be enough".

OTOH the AF/SF seems to be very happy with them it's not unreasonable
to expect that they might want to get more, or more likely get an
upgraded version (X-37C?), it's long enough since the original two
were built that getting original-spec would probably cost almost as
much or MORE anyway (just look at SLS to see how expensive it can
get).

So if we're being generous and interpret their "X-37B" as "any
spaceplanes" it's not an unreasonable extrapolation, even if not
presented as such.

The current size is limited by the fairings on the current and
conventional next generation rockets (IE ~5.2m outside) but it could
likely be heavier than the current ~5000 kg, the maximum weight
probably depends on how much they can upgrade the re-entry system.

If they're willing to bet that EITHER New Glenn (7m) or Starship (9m)
comes online they could make a bigger spaceplane, or if they were
willing to build their own shroud and fly with part of the wings
outside - this seems unlikely but if they did an expendable Falcon
Heavy have the performance to launch something with more than twice
the wing-span (IE >8x volume/weight, bigger than even the "inside
Starship" model).

Now 9m or "external wing" models if built really COULD be equipped
with some of the things they claim the smaller one have, but it would
also be easier to detect/track and even amateurs can track the current
X-37B... If the Russians and Chinese doesn't it's due to gross
incompetence. Which wouldn't surprise me for Russia.

On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 13:58:18 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
<tl@none.invalid> wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 9/2/2022 11:44 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?â€?
>>>>
>>https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>>>>
>>>> Hat tip to:
>>>> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>> The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize
>>"Experimental"
>>
>>There are two X-37Bs. Six more are reputedly being built.
>> https://www.space.com/x-37b-military-space-plane-surprising-facts
>
>There's nothing about six more in your reference that I can find.
>
>AFAIk the source for that "reputedly" is the Russian/China's "it's a
>nuclear bomber and they'll have 8 by 20xx" - they can't agree even
>with themselves which year though. And sometimes the claim is that the
>US already HAVE 8 which seems incredibly unlikely.

So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.

The only question is, did it come via Trump?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 13:58:18 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
><tl@none.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 9/2/2022 11:44 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 9:50:10 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> “X-37B: Space Plane or Bomber Designed to Nuclear Attack Russia?�?
>>>>>
>>>https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/09/x-37b-space-plane-or-bomber-designed-to-nuclear-attack-russia/
>>>>>
>>>>> Hat tip to:
>>>>> https://www.drudgereport.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>> The fact that there is only one of them was always going to emphasize
>>>"Experimental"
>>>
>>>There are two X-37Bs. Six more are reputedly being built.
>>> https://www.space.com/x-37b-military-space-plane-surprising-facts
>>
>>There's nothing about six more in your reference that I can find.
>>
>>AFAIk the source for that "reputedly" is the Russian/China's "it's a
>>nuclear bomber and they'll have 8 by 20xx" - they can't agree even
>>with themselves which year though. And sometimes the claim is that the
>>US already HAVE 8 which seems incredibly unlikely.
>
>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>
>The only question is, did it come via Trump?

That information was in the empty folders....

On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>
>The only question is, did it come via Trump?

Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
last 10 years.

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 4:21:40 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
> >
> >The only question is, did it come via Trump?
> Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
> quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
> last 10 years.

Satisfied? Heck, he feeds it, for example through social media.
A lot has moved alt right sites. For example, odysee.com carries
a 24/7 feed of Russia Today. RT is one of Putin's propaganda
channels.

Pt

On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>
>>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>
>Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>last 10 years.

Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).

The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
traded for two American prisoners of Russia.

Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> wrote:
> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
> >>
> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
> >
> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
> >last 10 years.
> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>
> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>
> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.

When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.

Pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>> >>
>> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>> >
>> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>> >last 10 years.
>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>
>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>
>When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
>Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.

Although, apparently, his personal passport is expired. I'm not sure if
his Diplomatic passport is valid once he's no longer king.

In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe-90fc-3120454829a4n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>> >>
>> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>> >
>> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>> >last 10 years.
>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>
>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>
>When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
>Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.

(Hal Heydt)
Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
may have been a bad idea.

In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
which may be tough to find.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
> >> >>
> >> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
> >> >
> >> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
> >> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
> >> >last 10 years.
> >> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
> >> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
> >> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
> >> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
> >>
> >> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
> >> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
> >> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
> >
> >When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
> >Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
> (Hal Heydt)
> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
> may have been a bad idea.
>
> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
> which may be tough to find.

About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
fraction of those also have SCI.

I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
close to it.

The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
tactic.

Pt

In article <b8ccf0c6-a87a-4881-8ff3-8e92635ee6c9n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>> >> >
>> >> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>> >> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>> >> >last 10 years.
>> >> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>> >> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>> >> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>> >> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>> >>
>> >> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>> >> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>> >> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>> >
>> >When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to
>flee, either to
>> >Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>> may have been a bad idea.
>>
>> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
>> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
>> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
>> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
>> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
>> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
>> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
>> which may be tough to find.
>
>About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
>fraction of those also have SCI.
>
>I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
>classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
>close to it.
>
>The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
>tactic.

(Hal Heydt)
My personal assumption would be that anything classified is,
almost by definition, not "attorney-client privileged" and that
the "executive privilege" claims are completely bogus (that'd be
up to Biden, who shows no sign of attempting to help or cover for
Trump). A judge might see it differently, though.

As an aside... I did, at one time, have a security clearance.
It was "Confidential", the lowest one there is. I had it because
I spent a couple of summers working in the Naval Supply Center DP
shop in San Diego pushing cards through tabulating machines.
(Ever pick up 600 to 800 punch cards knowing that each and every
one was a US Goverment check? I have.) It was part of the
Federal Summer Employment program, over 50 years ago.

I did kind of wonder what the reaction was, when they did my
background check, when they came across my father. In the 1950s,
his clearance was good enough to be allowed--as a civilian--to
wander around inside nuclear armed B-52 bombers that were ready
to go on the flight line of SAC bases. He had sockets welded to
the rear bumper of personal car (civilian!) to hold the flight
line flags he kept in the trunk, should he need to drive his own
car onto said flight line.

On 9/5/2022 1:39 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <b8ccf0c6-a87a-4881-8ff3-8e92635ee6c9n@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>>>>>> quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>>>>>> last 10 years.
>>>>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>>>>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>>>>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>>>>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>>>>
>>>>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>>>>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>>>>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>>>>
>>>> When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to
>> flee, either to
>>>> Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>>> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>>> may have been a bad idea.
>>>
>>> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
>>> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
>>> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
>>> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
>>> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
>>> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
>>> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
>>> which may be tough to find.
>>
>> About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
>> fraction of those also have SCI.
>>
>> I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
>> classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
>> close to it.
>>
>> The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
>> tactic.

It is a deliberate stalling tactic by Trump's lawyers.

>
> (Hal Heydt)
> My personal assumption would be that anything classified is,
> almost by definition, not "attorney-client privileged" and that
> the "executive privilege" claims are completely bogus (that'd be
> up to Biden, who shows no sign of attempting to help or cover for
> Trump). A judge might see it differently, though.
>
Earlier hearings this judge has made it clear she is following the
precedent the Supreme Court set when they overturned RvW of ignoring
prior precedents. Admonishing the DOJ for "overreading the laws about
executive privilege" (or something like that). Its all a distraction by
Trumpville. Executive privilege has nothing to do with why the
documents were seized.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 4:51:18 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <b8ccf0c6-a87a-4881...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
> >> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
> >> >> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
> >> >> >last 10 years.
> >> >> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
> >> >> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
> >> >> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
> >> >> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
> >> >>
> >> >> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
> >> >> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
> >> >> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
> >> >
> >> >When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to
> >flee, either to
> >> >Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
> >> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
> >> may have been a bad idea.
> >>
> >> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
> >> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
> >> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
> >> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
> >> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
> >> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
> >> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
> >> which may be tough to find.
> >
> >About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
> >fraction of those also have SCI.
> >
> >I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
> >classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
> >close to it.
> >
> >The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
> >tactic.
> (Hal Heydt)
> My personal assumption would be that anything classified is,
> almost by definition, not "attorney-client privileged" and that
> the "executive privilege" claims are completely bogus (that'd be
> up to Biden, who shows no sign of attempting to help or cover for
> Trump). A judge might see it differently, though.
>
> As an aside... I did, at one time, have a security clearance.
> It was "Confidential", the lowest one there is. I had it because
> I spent a couple of summers working in the Naval Supply Center DP
> shop in San Diego pushing cards through tabulating machines.
> (Ever pick up 600 to 800 punch cards knowing that each and every
> one was a US Goverment check? I have.) It was part of the
> Federal Summer Employment program, over 50 years ago.
>
> I did kind of wonder what the reaction was, when they did my
> background check, when they came across my father. In the 1950s,
> his clearance was good enough to be allowed--as a civilian--to
> wander around inside nuclear armed B-52 bombers that were ready
> to go on the flight line of SAC bases. He had sockets welded to
> the rear bumper of personal car (civilian!) to hold the flight
> line flags he kept in the trunk, should he need to drive his own
> car onto said flight line.

I currently have an active Secret clearance, and have held as high
as Top Secret.

When I first got my Secret clearance, it took about a year, mainly
because my sister was working in the Soviet Union, as a reporter
for the WSJ in Estonia. Until the fall of the USSR, I had to get lectures
every 6 months not to talk about my work with her.

Pt

On Mon, 05 Sep 2022 16:41:30 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>> >>
>>> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>>> >
>>> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>>> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>>> >last 10 years.
>>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>>
>>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>>
>>When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
>>Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>
>Although, apparently, his personal passport is expired. I'm not sure if
>his Diplomatic passport is valid once he's no longer king.

As long as his assets, particulary his money, are sequestered and
seized to pay down the National Debt the $1T he approved using to give
tax breaks to 1%-ers, he can go wherever he wants to, so far as I am
concerned. And good riddance!
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 19:12:15 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe-90fc-3120454829a4n@googlegroups.com>,
>pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>> >>
>>> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>>> >
>>> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>>> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>>> >last 10 years.
>>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>>
>>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>>
>>When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
>>Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>may have been a bad idea.

I imagine the items already identified as not relevant will be going
back (or to the National Archives, as appropriate).

The passports were only seized because he had them stashed in the same
drawer he had stashed classified documents in. They took the entire
contents of the drawer, which is apparently the normal procedure.
(Grab it now, sort it later, I suppose.)
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 12:46:58 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>> >> >
>> >> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>> >> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>> >> >last 10 years.
>> >> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>> >> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>> >> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>> >> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>> >>
>> >> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>> >> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>> >> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>> >
>> >When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to flee, either to
>> >Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>> may have been a bad idea.
>>
>> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
>> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
>> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
>> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
>> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
>> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
>> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
>> which may be tough to find.
>
>About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
>fraction of those also have SCI.

IIRC from what I have read, Special Masters are usually retired judges
or similarly related to the judicial system. Great at attorney-client
privilege, not (perhaps) so hot at anything else.

>I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
>classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
>close to it.

In terms of official USA classifications, very likely so.

But nothing stops a business/law office from labeling things
"confidential", for example, for their own purposes.

>The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
>tactic.

Oh, it is, it is -- on Trump's side.

But it might have its advantages from the DOJ side -- anything that is
allowed to be seen by them by a Special Master (or automatically
theirs per the Judge if classified) is something Trump can't whine
about later. Or, at least, he would have to whine, not about the DOJ,
but rather about the Special Master (which he asked for) and the Judge
(whom he appointed) -- and, as he has found out in different case in
New York, pissing off the Judge can produce fines large enough to
compel even Trump into compliance.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 20:39:27 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <b8ccf0c6-a87a-4881-8ff3-8e92635ee6c9n@googlegroups.com>,
>pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> >> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> >> ><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>>> >> >quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>>> >> >last 10 years.
>>> >> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>>> >> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>>> >> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>>> >> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>> >>
>>> >> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>>> >> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>>> >> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>>> >
>>> >When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to
>>flee, either to
>>> >Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>>> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>>> may have been a bad idea.
>>>
>>> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
>>> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
>>> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
>>> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
>>> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
>>> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
>>> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
>>> which may be tough to find.
>>
>>About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
>>fraction of those also have SCI.
>>
>>I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
>>classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
>>close to it.
>>
>>The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
>>tactic.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>My personal assumption would be that anything classified is,
>almost by definition, not "attorney-client privileged" and that
>the "executive privilege" claims are completely bogus (that'd be
>up to Biden, who shows no sign of attempting to help or cover for
>Trump). A judge might see it differently, though.

There appears to be a theory in Trumpland that ex-Presidents retain
their Executive Privilege abilities independent of the current
President, but that does not appear to be how the laws are written.

As always with Trump and his idiocies, the judicial system is at least
being forced to deal with hitherto undealt-with legal issues. This is
because they have never had to deal with a President who actually /is/
a crook before.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 14:50:38 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 9/5/2022 1:39 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <b8ccf0c6-a87a-4881-8ff3-8e92635ee6c9n@googlegroups.com>,
>> pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 3:21:17 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <ca8d717c-9abe-43fe...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 12:16:53 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 13:21:34 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 09:13:47 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>>>> <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, once again we are dealing with Russian propaganda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only question is, did it come via Trump?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Putin doesn't need Trump to create anti-American propaganda and I'm
>>>>>>> quite sure he's well satisfied with the polarization in America these
>>>>>>> last 10 years.
>>>>>> Who said anything about Trump /creating/ it? If this ever happens,
>>>>>> Trump is just the middle-man. As the Russian propaganda machine, BTW,
>>>>>> apparently wants us to believe ("Our man Trump" "Any classified docs
>>>>>> he has we have seen" have been seen cited as quotes).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Win10 News thingy has started shown slide shows of political
>>>>>> cartoons from time to time. One recent such showed Donald Trump being
>>>>>> traded for two American prisoners of Russia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a good idea to me. They like him, they can have him.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he's indicted, I suspect there's a fair chance he'll try to
>>> flee, either to
>>>>> Russia, or more likely to Saudi Arabia.
>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>> Depending on whether you think him fleeing the country is a good
>>>> or bad idea, it argues that giving his (siezed) passports back
>>>> may have been a bad idea.
>>>>
>>>> In current news, the judge he appointed (one might well wonder
>>>> why she didn't recuse herself...stooping to tie ones shoes in the
>>>> melon patch and all that) has approved appointing a special
>>>> master to review the siezed documents. This raises an
>>>> interesting point... Will the special master review *all* the
>>>> documents, or just the unclassified ones? If it's to be all,
>>>> then they'll need someone with a quite high security clearance,
>>>> which may be tough to find.
>>>
>>> About 1.3 million Americans have Top Secret clearances. A large
>>> fraction of those also have SCI.
>>>
>>> I imagine the fraction of documents Trump took that are both
>>> classified AND subject to client/attorney privilege is zero, or
>>> close to it.
>>>
>>> The sorting should go quickly, unless it's a deliberate staling
>>> tactic.
>
>It is a deliberate stalling tactic by Trump's lawyers.
>
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> My personal assumption would be that anything classified is,
>> almost by definition, not "attorney-client privileged" and that
>> the "executive privilege" claims are completely bogus (that'd be
>> up to Biden, who shows no sign of attempting to help or cover for
>> Trump). A judge might see it differently, though.
>>
>Earlier hearings this judge has made it clear she is following the
>precedent the Supreme Court set when they overturned RvW of ignoring
>prior precedents. Admonishing the DOJ for "overreading the laws about
>executive privilege" (or something like that). Its all a distraction by
>Trumpville. Executive privilege has nothing to do with why the
>documents were seized.

I've read several attacks on the Judge via the Win10 News thingy, and
(unlike yours) they had a decidedly ... hysterical ... tone.

The judicial system can, to a point, police itself. An appeals court,
backed by the Supremes, can ... clarify ... her honor's thinking on an
issue or two if it is clear she has wandered into the toolies. And, of
course, Congress can impeach and convict (and so remove) her, if her
behavior demands it.

So letting her go on and waiting to see what she does is probably the
best way to determine whether or not a problem actually exists. Right
now we are living an example of the Flanders version of Boyle's Law:

"The greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot
air."

and I don't expect the volume of hot air on this issue from either
side to go down any time soon.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <2stehh1av586j6bscdp9lfj5vjivl7ortk@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>issue or two if it is clear she has wandered into the toolies.

(Hal Heydt)
Tules?