Recent headlines show the Russian forces losing badly in Ukraine.
News stories from a little while back discussed how fighting around the
Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was creating a dangerous situation.
As it happens, I recently read about how the Wisent, the European bison, was
very near extinction, but found some breathing space as the exclusion zone
around Chernobyl created a wilderness area in which they thrived.

One view of the conflict, which makes sense to me, is that the Putin regime
finds the prospect of a peaceful and prosperous Ukraine aligned with the West
as simply intolerable, and thus it will search for some other way of preventing
it, if the kind of military victory they had been seeking proves unattainable.
According to Wikipedia, in addition to the one at Zaporizhzhia, there are
three other active nuclear power plants in Ukraine; at Rivne, Khmelnytskyi,
and South Ukraine.
So, one possible thing the Russian forces might do as a parting shot is
to try to attack these four nuclear power plants so as to cause messy
radiation leaks from all of them.
Of course, the world would disapprove, but they don't seem to care.

John Savard

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:20:12 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> Recent headlines show the Russian forces losing badly in Ukraine.
> News stories from a little while back discussed how fighting around the
> Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was creating a dangerous situation.
> As it happens, I recently read about how the Wisent, the European bison, was
> very near extinction, but found some breathing space as the exclusion zone
> around Chernobyl created a wilderness area in which they thrived.
>
> One view of the conflict, which makes sense to me, is that the Putin regime
> finds the prospect of a peaceful and prosperous Ukraine aligned with the West
> as simply intolerable, and thus it will search for some other way of preventing
> it, if the kind of military victory they had been seeking proves unattainable.
> According to Wikipedia, in addition to the one at Zaporizhzhia, there are
> three other active nuclear power plants in Ukraine; at Rivne, Khmelnytskyi,
> and South Ukraine.
> So, one possible thing the Russian forces might do as a parting shot is
> to try to attack these four nuclear power plants so as to cause messy
> radiation leaks from all of them.
> Of course, the world would disapprove, but they don't seem to care.
>
> John Savard
Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be a Russian attack on NATO.

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> schrieb:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:20:12 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>> Recent headlines show the Russian forces losing badly in Ukraine.
>> News stories from a little while back discussed how fighting around the
>> Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was creating a dangerous situation.
>> As it happens, I recently read about how the Wisent, the European bison, was
>> very near extinction, but found some breathing space as the exclusion zone
>> around Chernobyl created a wilderness area in which they thrived.
>>
>> One view of the conflict, which makes sense to me, is that the Putin regime
>> finds the prospect of a peaceful and prosperous Ukraine aligned with the West
>> as simply intolerable, and thus it will search for some other way of preventing
>> it, if the kind of military victory they had been seeking proves unattainable.
>> According to Wikipedia, in addition to the one at Zaporizhzhia, there are
>> three other active nuclear power plants in Ukraine; at Rivne, Khmelnytskyi,
>> and South Ukraine.
>> So, one possible thing the Russian forces might do as a parting shot is
>> to try to attack these four nuclear power plants so as to cause messy
>> radiation leaks from all of them.
>> Of course, the world would disapprove, but they don't seem to care.
>>
>> John Savard

> Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately
> causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be
> a Russian attack on NATO.

The additional radiation dose for Chernobyl in Western Europe
was rather low. The most severe effect were in the immediate
neighborhood.

Causing a nuclear release in one of those plants would harm Ukraine
and Russia, depending on which way the wind is blowing - looking
at the wind map right now, it would be blowing East, towards Russia.

That would be a bit like the "Nerobefehl", or Nero Decree, where
Hitler ordered the destruction of all infrastructure in Germany,
saying, according to Speer, "If the war is lost, the [German]
people will also be lost. [...] It would not be necessary to take
into account the foundations that the people need for their most
primitive survival. On the contrary, it would be better to destroy
even these things. For the people would have proved to be the
weaker and the future would belong exclusively to the stronger
Eastern people. What would be left after the struggle would be
only the inferiors anyway, because the good ones had fallen."

(That order alone should be enough to reduce the number of Hitler
fans in Germany to zero, but strangely it is not taught in schools;
I first read about it in Haffner).

On 9/13/2022 10:10 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> schrieb:
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:20:12 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> Recent headlines show the Russian forces losing badly in Ukraine.
>>> News stories from a little while back discussed how fighting around the
>>> Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was creating a dangerous situation.
>>> As it happens, I recently read about how the Wisent, the European bison, was
>>> very near extinction, but found some breathing space as the exclusion zone
>>> around Chernobyl created a wilderness area in which they thrived.
>>>
>>> One view of the conflict, which makes sense to me, is that the Putin regime
>>> finds the prospect of a peaceful and prosperous Ukraine aligned with the West
>>> as simply intolerable, and thus it will search for some other way of preventing
>>> it, if the kind of military victory they had been seeking proves unattainable.
>>> According to Wikipedia, in addition to the one at Zaporizhzhia, there are
>>> three other active nuclear power plants in Ukraine; at Rivne, Khmelnytskyi,
>>> and South Ukraine.
>>> So, one possible thing the Russian forces might do as a parting shot is
>>> to try to attack these four nuclear power plants so as to cause messy
>>> radiation leaks from all of them.
>>> Of course, the world would disapprove, but they don't seem to care.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>
>> Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately
>> causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be
>> a Russian attack on NATO.
>
> The additional radiation dose for Chernobyl in Western Europe
> was rather low. The most severe effect were in the immediate
> neighborhood.
>
Yes it was worst around Chernobyl itself but Finnish reindeer herders to
this day check their animals for radiation because of it. Radioactive
particles get into the lichen they eat and concentrated in the reindeer,
making them radioactive and causing health issues in the animals and the
humans.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:11:01 AM UTC-4, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> schrieb:
> > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:20:12 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> Recent headlines show the Russian forces losing badly in Ukraine.
> >> News stories from a little while back discussed how fighting around the
> >> Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was creating a dangerous situation.
> >> As it happens, I recently read about how the Wisent, the European bison, was
> >> very near extinction, but found some breathing space as the exclusion zone
> >> around Chernobyl created a wilderness area in which they thrived.
> >>
> >> One view of the conflict, which makes sense to me, is that the Putin regime
> >> finds the prospect of a peaceful and prosperous Ukraine aligned with the West
> >> as simply intolerable, and thus it will search for some other way of preventing
> >> it, if the kind of military victory they had been seeking proves unattainable.
> >> According to Wikipedia, in addition to the one at Zaporizhzhia, there are
> >> three other active nuclear power plants in Ukraine; at Rivne, Khmelnytskyi,
> >> and South Ukraine.
> >> So, one possible thing the Russian forces might do as a parting shot is
> >> to try to attack these four nuclear power plants so as to cause messy
> >> radiation leaks from all of them.
> >> Of course, the world would disapprove, but they don't seem to care.
> >>
> >> John Savard
>
> > Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately
> > causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be
> > a Russian attack on NATO.
> The additional radiation dose for Chernobyl in Western Europe
> was rather low. The most severe effect were in the immediate
> neighborhood.
>
> Causing a nuclear release in one of those plants would harm Ukraine
> and Russia, depending on which way the wind is blowing - looking
> at the wind map right now, it would be blowing East, towards Russia.
>
> That would be a bit like the "Nerobefehl", or Nero Decree, where
> Hitler ordered the destruction of all infrastructure in Germany,
> saying, according to Speer, "If the war is lost, the [German]
> people will also be lost. [...] It would not be necessary to take
> into account the foundations that the people need for their most
> primitive survival. On the contrary, it would be better to destroy
> even these things. For the people would have proved to be the
> weaker and the future would belong exclusively to the stronger
> Eastern people. What would be left after the struggle would be
> only the inferiors anyway, because the good ones had fallen."
>
> (That order alone should be enough to reduce the number of Hitler
> fans in Germany to zero, but strangely it is not taught in schools;
> I first read about it in Haffner).

Putin has said 'Why would we want a world without Russia?'. Some have
tried to spin this similar to the Nerobefehl, but when I read it in context
he's actually talking about avoiding the use of nukes outside an existential
threat to the Russian state.

I don't think he'd target the reactors deliberately. However, I do worry about
accidental damage.

The reactors are in cold shutdown, so we won't have a Chernobyl situation.
However, the much less known 197 Kyshtym disaster could be a model, in which
high level waste was spread over 20,000 square miles after cooling failed. A lot
of the recent concern has been over power failures to keep waste cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster

pt

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 7:35:25 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Putin has said 'Why would we want a world without Russia?'. Some have
> tried to spin this similar to the Nerobefehl, but when I read it in context
> he's actually talking about avoiding the use of nukes outside an existential
> threat to the Russian state.

This makes more sense, but given Putin's track record of lying, I wouldn't take much
encouragement from this. However, I am willing to concede that he isn't likely to be
_that_ crazy, since he could have started World War III any time he wanted to if he
was.

The trouble is, though, that by invading Ukraine, he has *created* an existential
threat to his regime, at least, if not the Russian nation and people. So, depending on
how one defines the "Russian State"...

John Savard

On Wednesday, 14 September 2022 at 08:26:17 UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 9/13/2022 10:10 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> schrieb:
> >> Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately
> >> causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be
> >> a Russian attack on NATO.
> >
> > The additional radiation dose for Chernobyl in Western Europe
> > was rather low. The most severe effect were in the immediate
> > neighborhood.
> >
> Yes it was worst around Chernobyl itself but Finnish reindeer herders to
> this day check their animals for radiation because of it. Radioactive
> particles get into the lichen they eat and concentrated in the reindeer,
> making them radioactive and causing health issues in the animals and the
> humans.

I'll assume they are immensely tired of jokes about
how Santa Claus employs the ones with mutant
superpowers.

On 9/15/2022 2:53 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 14 September 2022 at 08:26:17 UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 9/13/2022 10:10 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> schrieb:
>>>> Chernobyl leaked as far as Wales. There is talk that deliberately
>>>> causing a radiation leak that extended outside Ukraine would be
>>>> a Russian attack on NATO.
>>>
>>> The additional radiation dose for Chernobyl in Western Europe
>>> was rather low. The most severe effect were in the immediate
>>> neighborhood.
>>>
>> Yes it was worst around Chernobyl itself but Finnish reindeer herders to
>> this day check their animals for radiation because of it. Radioactive
>> particles get into the lichen they eat and concentrated in the reindeer,
>> making them radioactive and causing health issues in the animals and the
>> humans.
>
> I'll assume they are immensely tired of jokes about
> how Santa Claus employs the ones with mutant
> superpowers.

I suspect they haven't gotten many for two reasons. One, few people are
aware of the situation and two, it is deadly serious for them. They may
skip past "tired of them" straight to "glares and cold silence".

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:e719883e-691c-4fcb-963d-4cbd895b57f1n@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 7:35:25 AM UTC-6,
> pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Putin has said 'Why would we want a world without Russia?'.
>> Some have tried to spin this similar to the Nerobefehl, but
>> when I read it in context he's actually talking about avoiding
>> the use of nukes outside an existential threat to the Russian
>> state.
>
> This makes more sense, but given Putin's track record of lying,
> I wouldn't take much encouragement from this. However, I am
> willing to concede that he isn't likely to be _that_ crazy,
> since he could have started World War III any time he wanted to
> if he was.

He believes he already has, and is brilliantly managing the pace at
which future slave states welcome his jack boots with open arms.
>
> The trouble is, though, that by invading Ukraine, he has
> *created* an existential threat to his regime, at least, if not
> the Russian nation and people. So, depending on how one defines
> the "Russian State"...
>
Their current state is "in deep shit." The assassination attempts
have started, and once one succeeds, the power struggle will get far,
far uglier.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:e719883e-691c-4fcb...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 7:35:25 AM UTC-6,
> > pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Putin has said 'Why would we want a world without Russia?'.
> >> Some have tried to spin this similar to the Nerobefehl, but
> >> when I read it in context he's actually talking about avoiding
> >> the use of nukes outside an existential threat to the Russian
> >> state.
> >
> > This makes more sense, but given Putin's track record of lying,
> > I wouldn't take much encouragement from this. However, I am
> > willing to concede that he isn't likely to be _that_ crazy,
> > since he could have started World War III any time he wanted to
> > if he was.
> He believes he already has, and is brilliantly managing the pace at
> which future slave states welcome his jack boots with open arms.
> >
> > The trouble is, though, that by invading Ukraine, he has
> > *created* an existential threat to his regime, at least, if not
> > the Russian nation and people. So, depending on how one defines
> > the "Russian State"...
> >
> Their current state is "in deep shit." The assassination attempts
> have started, and once one succeeds, the power struggle will get far,
> far uglier.
>
Iuliia Mendel was press secretary and spokesperson for President Volodymyr Zelenskyy
from 2019 to 2021. The following is from her September 13 interview with Mary Louise Kelly
on NPR's _All Things Considered_ about Mendel's new book _The Fight of Our Lives:
My Time with Zelenskyy, Ukraine's Battle for Democracy and What it Means for the World_.
The transcript is available on the NPR website.

KELLY: What stands out to you as someone who has been a journalist, who has briefed journalists,
as a press secretary who knows how to craft a message? What has stood out to you about how
both Zelenskyy and Vladimir Putin have messaged, have used the media - social media, traditional
media - during these months of war?

MENDEL: Russia is fully isolated information. Russian media tells only the Kremlin message and
propaganda and lies and manipulates. It even doesn't have any logic in the messages. Ukraine fully
collaborates with international media and with American media, and we are very grateful for this
because American media did an amazing job to help us spread the word and to stand for Ukraine
to unite the world around this battle for democracy.

But if you ask me about Zelenskyy and Putin, they are really from different age, and they have
different worldview. Putin is from old age. And what I mean when I say this, I don't mean age.
I mean they have - they are outdated. He and his team, they have very outdated worldview.

KELLY: And you've met him, we should mention.

MENDEL: Yeah, we met. We met during the Normandy meeting in December 2019. And, you know,
he surprised me for the reason that everybody considers that he's such a strong man because he
developed this narrative. But in fact, when I saw him negotiating the peace, he was not strong at all.
He was really a very weak negotiator for the reason that for the last 23 years, he has never negotiated
anything. He just orders something and waits that people deliver the result.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist