One way to create an alien or monster for a motion
picture or television program is to build a full sized
model of the desired entity, equip it with electric
or hydraulic motors, pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders,
cables, or other means of performing motions
needed for the script, and operating it by a team of
skilled puppeteers, possibly aided by some type
of automated control system. In this way the entity
can be filmed in real time on set, interacting with
human actors, with no need to combine live action
and special effects in post-production. The puppeteers
can even imbue the entity with personality. Notable films
where this technique was used include the 1954 classic
_Them!_ and Jim Henson's _Dark Crystal_. It is also
suitable for use in live stage productions and has been
used to create the dragon Fafnir in Wagner's _Ring_ cycle.

What is this technique called within the motion picture
industry? I believe it is within the subset of what are
known as "practical" effects, i.e. those done on set in
real time.

My thanks in advance for any replies,

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

peterwezeman wrote:
> One way to create an alien or monster for a motion
> picture or television program is to build a full sized
> model of the desired entity, equip it with electric
> or hydraulic motors, pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders,
> cables, or other means of performing motions
> needed for the script, and operating it by a team of
> skilled puppeteers, possibly aided by some type
> of automated control system.
....
> What is this technique called within the motion picture
> industry? I believe it is within the subset of what are
> known as "practical" effects, i.e. those done on set in
> real time.

"Animatronics" is a word I've heard. The Wikipedia article on it derives it from "audio-animatronics" coined by Walt Disney for features in his theme park, but the timeline notes its use in movies as the singing bird on Mary Poppins' finger.

--
-Jack

Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote in
news:6a24b9fa-b8b1-4eee-b270-fc407a869210n@googlegroups.com:

> peterwezeman wrote:
>> One way to create an alien or monster for a motion
>> picture or television program is to build a full sized
>> model of the desired entity, equip it with electric
>> or hydraulic motors, pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders,
>> cables, or other means of performing motions
>> needed for the script, and operating it by a team of
>> skilled puppeteers, possibly aided by some type
>> of automated control system.
> ...
>> What is this technique called within the motion picture
>> industry? I believe it is within the subset of what are
>> known as "practical" effects, i.e. those done on set in
>> real time.
>
> "Animatronics" is a word I've heard. The Wikipedia article on
> it derives it from "audio-animatronics" coined by Walt Disney
> for features in his theme park, but the timeline notes its use
> in movies as the singing bird on Mary Poppins' finger.
>
Undoubtedly inspired by the 18th century work of Pierre Jaquet-Droz,
though his work was rather more miniaturized.

https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/07/an-amazing-collection-of-
mechanical-singing-bird-automata/

https://tinyurl.com/366emkn7

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:18:02 AM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> peterwezeman wrote:
> > One way to create an alien or monster for a motion
> > picture or television program is to build a full sized
> > model of the desired entity, equip it with electric
> > or hydraulic motors, pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders,
> > cables, or other means of performing motions
> > needed for the script, and operating it by a team of
> > skilled puppeteers, possibly aided by some type
> > of automated control system.
> ...
> > What is this technique called within the motion picture
> > industry? I believe it is within the subset of what are
> > known as "practical" effects, i.e. those done on set in
> > real time.
> "Animatronics" is a word I've heard. The Wikipedia article on it derives it from "audio-animatronics" coined
by Walt Disney for features in his theme park, but the timeline notes its use in movies as the singing bird on
Mary Poppins' finger.
>
Thank you for your reply.

Doing a little searching, i find, from the classic-monsters.com entry on _Them!_: "The ants themselves were
specially constructed puppets, and operated by offscreen technicians under the supervision of Ralph Ayers."

From mentalfloss.com (Gordon Douglas was the film's director):

Them! brought its spineless villains to life using a combination of animatronics and puppetry, courtesy of an effects artist
by the name of Dick Smith. He constructed two fully functional mechanical ants for the production, with the first of these
being a 12-foot monster filled with gears, levers, motors, and pulleys. Operating the big bug was a job that required a small
army of technicians who’d pull sophisticated cables to control the ant’s limbs off-camera. These guys worked in close
proximity and often crashed into each other as a result, prompting Douglas to call them “a comedy team.”

From manapop.com:

"The only issue I have with the ants as depicted in this film is that with only three full-scale puppets to create the army of
giant ants, we never get a true sense of the scale of the threat."

Janne Wass at scifist.net:

"This was one of the first times, if not the first time, in Hollywood that an actual working full-size giant monster puppet
had been built for a movie. I’m trying to think here, but I can’t think of a full-size animatronic on this scale and with this
level of operation that would have been built in the years between this film and Steven Spielberg’s Jaws in 1973. But I may
be forgetting something."

Based on this sample of usage by film critics, it would seem that if I were to use the term full-scale or full-size puppet
in this context, people will know what I mean.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Amal>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>

<https://www.fatboyslim.net/songs/hes-frank-ft-iggy-pop-the-bpa/>

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:38:00 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Amal>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>
>
> <https://www.fatboyslim.net/songs/hes-frank-ft-iggy-pop-the-bpa/>

Thank you for your reply.

I saw something about Little Amal in the news media. Quoting from your
link I note that, "The puppet's eyes are controlled by a small computer; thus she is partly animatronic."

Consistent with this statement, a purely mechanical device would not be described as animatronic, so "puppet"
seems to be the most general term.

Two people met at a party in Hollywood. One mentioned to the other, "I work in animatronics."

The other replied, "I work in animatronics, too."

The first person said, "It's a small world."

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On 25/09/2022 00.11, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:

> _Them!_ and Jim Henson's _Dark Crystal_. It is also
> suitable for use in live stage productions and has been
> used to create the dragon Fafnir in Wagner's _Ring_ cycle.

I have no idea about the terminology. However, I'd like to
point out that Poul Anderson came up with another method
of creating Fafnir.

In "How to Be Ethnic in One Easy Lesson", the Wodenite,
Adzel, played Fafnir.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?58292>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 8:05:25 AM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 25/09/2022 00.11, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > _Them!_ and Jim Henson's _Dark Crystal_. It is also
> > suitable for use in live stage productions and has been
> > used to create the dragon Fafnir in Wagner's _Ring_ cycle.
> I have no idea about the terminology. However, I'd like to
> point out that Poul Anderson came up with another method
> of creating Fafnir.
>
> In "How to Be Ethnic in One Easy Lesson", the Wodenite,
> Adzel, played Fafnir.
>
> <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?58292>
>
I read that story. In Adzel's case I think it would just be called a costume.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Monday, 26 September 2022 at 03:20:36 UTC+1, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:38:00 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Amal>
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>
> >
> > <https://www.fatboyslim.net/songs/hes-frank-ft-iggy-pop-the-bpa/>
> Thank you for your reply.
> I saw something about Little Amal in the news media. Quoting from your
> link I note that, "The puppet's eyes are controlled by a small computer; thus she is partly animatronic."
>
> Consistent with this statement, a purely mechanical device would not be described as animatronic, so "puppet"
> seems to be the most general term.

I take it that you don't mean "purely mechanical"
as having no humans (or trained animals) involved
in the performance. But nothing moving electrically
and/or autonomously.

But - in which category falls a remote-controlled car?

> Two people met at a party in Hollywood. One mentioned to the other, "I work in animatronics."
>
> The other replied, "I work in animatronics, too."
>
> The first person said, "It's a small world."

I mistook the joke - but then I got it, after all.

(In my version, "claymation" would be better.)

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 8:38:00 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.

and as one example:

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>

Thanks. When I heard the movie was based on a novel and stage play, I'd wondered, but only idly.
Now I'm sorry I didn't see it.

Really, though, I'm just taking the opportunity to post news I've been bursting with since I found it researching a post that I never got around to

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 2:01:18 PM UTC-4, Jack Bohn wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 8:38:00 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.
> and as one example:
>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>
>
> Thanks. When I heard the movie was based on a novel and stage play, I'd wondered, but only idly.
> Now I'm sorry I didn't see it.
>
> Really, though, I'm just taking the opportunity to post news I've been bursting with since I found it researching a post that I never got around to making:

The Guinness people keep records of the speed of pantomime horses over 100m. From the numbers, I'm guessing those that get entry in the records come from the track and field more than from the stage.
There's a men's category, and a women's category, but no mention of mixed doubles.

--
-Jack

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 26 September 2022 at 03:20:36 UTC+1, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:38:00 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > > I was going to say that "puppetry" may be an adequate word.
> > >
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Amal>
> > >
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_%28play%29>
> > >
> > > <https://www.fatboyslim.net/songs/hes-frank-ft-iggy-pop-the-bpa/>
> > Thank you for your reply.
> > I saw something about Little Amal in the news media. Quoting from your
> > link I note that, "The puppet's eyes are controlled by a small computer; thus she is partly animatronic."
> >
> > Consistent with this statement, a purely mechanical device would not be described as animatronic, so "puppet"
> > seems to be the most general term.
> I take it that you don't mean "purely mechanical"
> as having no humans (or trained animals) involved
> in the performance. But nothing moving electrically
> and/or autonomously.
>
> But - in which category falls a remote-controlled car?

I was asking about methods used to animate a full-sized model of an alien, a mythical creature,
an extinct animal, or other life-form in real time on set or on stage, where it could interact with
human actors if necessary. This might or might not use animatronics. It could very well use radio
or other types of wireless remote control. "Full size puppet" and "full scale puppet" seem to be terms
used for this in the motion picture community. The most sophisticated work of this type typically
has a team of puppeteers working together, with some controlling limb movement, some controlling
facial expressions, and whatever other movements the puppet is capable of.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist