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arts / rec.arts.books.tolkien / that don't scan

SubjectAuthor
* that don't scanRich D
+* Re: that don't scanJeff Urs
|`* Re: that don't scanSteve Morrison
| +- Re: that don't scanGlenn Holliday
| +- Re: that don't scanJulian Bradfield
| `- Re: that don't scanRich D
`- Re: that don't scanJohn W Kennedy

1
that don't scan

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Subject: that don't scan
From: rdelaney...@gmail.com (Rich D)
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 by: Rich D - Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:58 UTC

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring..."

"From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring..."

Which flows smoother?

I always said, old J.R.R. was a fine story teller, but
no ear for the cadences of the English language -

--
Rich

Re: that don't scan

<sdidid$ck8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jeff....@gmail.com (Jeff Urs)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: that don't scan
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:08:29 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Urs - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:08 UTC

Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>
> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>
> Which flows smoother?

Seriously? The first one.
Stresses on 'ash', 'fire', 'wok', 'light', 'shad', 'spring'.

--
Jeff

Re: that don't scan

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From: rima...@toast.net (Steve Morrison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: that don't scan
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:27:40 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Steve Morrison - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:27 UTC

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:08:29 +0000, Jeff Urs wrote:

> Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>
>> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>
>> Which flows smoother?
>
> Seriously? The first one.
> Stresses on 'ash', 'fire', 'wok', 'light', 'shad', 'spring'.

It all depends on whether you pronounce "fire" with one syllable or
two. Most of us use the two-syllable pronunciation in real life, but
the scansion works assuming "fire" is a one-syllable word. It's good
enough for poetry.

Re: that don't scan

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From: holli...@acm.org (Glenn Holliday)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: that don't scan
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:36:10 -0400
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 by: Glenn Holliday - Wed, 28 Jul 2021 01:36 UTC

On 7/27/2021 2:27 PM, Steve Morrison wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:08:29 +0000, Jeff Urs wrote:
>
>> Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> Which flows smoother?
>
> It all depends on whether you pronounce "fire" with one syllable or
> two. Most of us use the two-syllable pronunciation in real life, but
> the scansion works assuming "fire" is a one-syllable word. It's good
> enough for poetry.

I heard an actor once comment "John Wayne is the only person I ever
heard pronounce 'cow' as three syllables."

<Trying it with "fire">

That doesn't work. Never mind.

--
Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org

Re: that don't scan

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From: john.w.k...@gmail.com (John W Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 23:01:07 -0400
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 by: John W Kennedy - Mon, 2 Aug 2021 03:01 UTC

On 7/24/21 7:58 PM, Rich D wrote:
> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>
> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>
> Which flows smoother?
>
> I always said, old J.R.R. was a fine story teller, but
> no ear for the cadences of the English language -
>
> --
> Rich
>

The other responders have observed that Tolkien’s version requires that
“fire” be pronounced with a single syllable, but there’s nothing unusual
about that. Tennyson, for example, does it more often than not, and so
does Shakespeare.

Your version, on the other hand, is hideous, and doesn’t scan at all
unless you pronounce "ashes" as one syllable and “fire” as two. Don’t
quit your day job.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

Re: that don't scan

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:33 UTC

On 2021-07-27, Steve Morrison <rimagen@toast.net> wrote:
>> Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> Which flows smoother?
> It all depends on whether you pronounce "fire" with one syllable or
> two. Most of us use the two-syllable pronunciation in real life, but
> the scansion works assuming "fire" is a one-syllable word. It's good
> enough for poetry.

When Tolkien read his poetry, he was rhotic, and pronounced "fire" as
approximately [faɪr], with the r being a tap or short trill.

Re: that don't scan

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Subject: Re: that don't scan
From: rdelaney...@gmail.com (Rich D)
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 by: Rich D - Mon, 2 Aug 2021 23:35 UTC

On July 27, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>> "From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> "From the ashes shall a fire be woken,
>>> A light from the shadows shall spring..."
>>>
>>> Which flows smoother?
>
> > Seriously? The first one.
> > Stresses on 'ash', 'fire', 'wok', 'light', 'shad', 'spring'.
>
> It all depends on whether you pronounce "fire" with one syllable or
> two. Most of us use the two-syllable pronunciation in real life, but
> the scansion works assuming "fire" is a one-syllable word.

Good point, and subtle.

if 'fire' is stretched out, the book version becomes clumsy. But pronounced
sharply, a single syllable, it works.

--
Rich

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