I am slightly surprised that I haven't seen more reviews of this. Possibly this is because it unveils events that happen early in the timeline only towards the end of the book, so there is a risk of spoilers. I will not go into details, but this reminds me of very early Science Fiction. Its strength is that it shows people actually doing science, and the bulk of the action is from events that we think about in terms of science. Its weakness, at least for me, is that I didn't feel that I enjoyed being in the company of the characters, although the main character does make some humourous observations. I felt myself worrying a lot about what would go wrong next. I suppose that counts as being involved in the story, although not a very enjoyable form of involvement.

As a side issue, one aspect of the aftermath of the book reminds me of the aftermath of "Who goes there?" The world has acquired a previously undreamt of resource, not through directed or undirected research, but as a by-product of a completely unexpected intrusion. This says to me that there can be no "end of history" moment in science. Even if, a century from now, we had become certain that we could no longer perform experiments that would allow us to expand our theories, there would still be the possibility of learning from the arrival of something undreamt of by our philosophies.

On 10/8/2022 11:21 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> I am slightly surprised that I haven't seen more reviews of this. Possibly this is because it unveils events that happen early in the timeline only towards the end of the book, so there is a risk of spoilers. I will not go into details, but this reminds me of very early Science Fiction. Its strength is that it shows people actually doing science, and the bulk of the action is from events that we think about in terms of science. Its weakness, at least for me, is that I didn't feel that I enjoyed being in the company of the characters, although the main character does make some humourous observations. I felt myself worrying a lot about what would go wrong next. I suppose that counts as being involved in the story, although not a very enjoyable form of involvement.
>
> As a side issue, one aspect of the aftermath of the book reminds me of the aftermath of "Who goes there?" The world has acquired a previously undreamt of resource, not through directed or undirected research, but as a by-product of a completely unexpected intrusion. This says to me that there can be no "end of history" moment in science. Even if, a century from now, we had become certain that we could no longer perform experiments that would allow us to expand our theories, there would still be the possibility of learning from the arrival of something undreamt of by our philosophies.

Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
and is creating new knowledge of his own.

I am surprised, I thought that I had this book in my SBR. I will order
it now.
https://www.amazon.com/Project-Hail-Mary-Andy-Weir/dp/0593135229/

Lynn

On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>

And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...

On 10/8/2022 11:21 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> I am slightly surprised that I haven't seen more reviews of this. Possibly this is because it unveils events that happen early in the timeline only towards the end of the book, so there is a risk of spoilers. I will not go into details, but this reminds me of very early Science Fiction. Its strength is that it shows people actually doing science, and the bulk of the action is from events that we think about in terms of science. Its weakness, at least for me, is that I didn't feel that I enjoyed being in the company of the characters, although the main character does make some humourous observations. I felt myself worrying a lot about what would go wrong next. I suppose that counts as being involved in the story, although not a very enjoyable form of involvement.
>
> As a side issue, one aspect of the aftermath of the book reminds me of the aftermath of "Who goes there?" The world has acquired a previously undreamt of resource, not through directed or undirected research, but as a by-product of a completely unexpected intrusion. This says to me that there can be no "end of history" moment in science. Even if, a century from now, we had become certain that we could no longer perform experiments that would allow us to expand our theories, there would still be the possibility of learning from the arrival of something undreamt of by our philosophies.

I think there aren't more reviews because people don't
really know what to think of it. I read it, but I'm not
sure if I will ever read it again. I'm not really sure
whether I enjoyed it. Weir's first book, "The Martian" was
very good, and I have reread it, and will probably reread it
again some time in the future.

For me "Project Hail Mary" requires a huge suspension of disbelief.
For many people this would be no problem, but I do have a
bit of a problem with it. A microbial life form living in the Sun
seems to be way beyond even science fictions famous ability
to postulate impossible things.

Bill

In article <C6v0L.575168$iiS8.493788@fx17.iad>,
Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>
>
>And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...

Tell that to Roscoe Arbuckle.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 12:21:23 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> I am slightly surprised that I haven't seen more reviews of this. Possibly
> this is because it unveils events that happen early in the timeline only
> towards the end of the book, so there is a risk of spoilers. I will not go
> into details, but this reminds me of very early Science Fiction. Its strength
> is that it shows people actually doing science, and the bulk of the action
> is from events that we think about in terms of science. Its weakness, at
> least for me, is that I didn't feel that I enjoyed being in the company of the
> characters, although the main character does make some humourous
> observations. I felt myself worrying a lot about what would go wrong
> next. I suppose that counts as being involved in the story, although not
> a very enjoyable form of involvement. [snip]

This novel was similar to _The Martian_ in a number of ways. A human
is stranded millions of miles away from Earth and needs to use science
and engineering in order to accomplish his goal. Various disasters
occur and he has to figure out ways to survive them. We also see
Earth-based humans working toward the same goal.

The main differences are:

1. There are aliens.

2. The stakes are much higher – the fate of at least 2 sapient species is
on the line.

3. Unlike _The Martian_, the protagonist of PHM has a prominent
character arc and becomes a better person.

4. The amount of time spent on describing the events back on Earth
is much greater.

Of these 4 differences, I liked the aliens the most. Fun stuff.

The higher stakes were OK, although the author apparently had to
introduce a number of semi-magical elements to make them work.
The protagonist’s character arc was a mixed bag. In theory, it was
an improvement compared to the somewhat bland protagonist of
_The Martian_. However, the implementation left me irritated most
of the time.

Finally, the addition of more humans was a significant minus. If
_The Martian_’s human politics felt like a soap opera, PHM’s politics
and inter-human relationships felt like a bad sitcom. Here is the
protagonist meeting a vodka-swilling Russian engineer in Chapter 16:

> “Hello!” Ilyukhina lunged forward and hugged Stratt. “I’m here to
> die for Earth! Pretty awesome, yes?!”
> I leaned to Dimitri. “Are all Russians crazy?”
> “Yes,” he said with a smile. “It is the only way to be Russian and
> happy at the same time.”
> “That’s…dark.”
> “That’s *Russian*!”

It would make early 20th century pulp authors, who perfected
the art of “characterization by stereotyping”, cringe.

These issues dragged my final score down to 7/10.
(For the record, I gave _The Martian_ 9/10.)

On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>
>
> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...

Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian

Lynn

On Sun, 09 Oct 2022 13:53:17 +0000, James Nicoll wrote:

> In article <C6v0L.575168$iiS8.493788@fx17.iad>,
> Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of
>>> others and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>
>>>
>>And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for the
>>campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>
> Tell that to Roscoe Arbuckle.

I was thinking of the electric car campaign, not of Musk
personally. No matter how bad anything is for Musk, the
attention will in the long run benefit electric cars.
My argument for this is longish and would take the thread
in a direction away from the OP's intent. Separate thread, anyone?

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
> > On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
> >> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
> >> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
> >>
> >
> > And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
> > the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>
> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian

Lets see.

It's Fox "News".
No numbers given.
Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
Pro tobacco
Pro coal
Climate denialism
Opposing fuel efficiency.
Supporting big pharma
Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

You call this article "fair and balanced"?

Pt

On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>>
>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
>
> Lets see.
>
> It's Fox "News".
> No numbers given.
> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
> Pro tobacco
> Pro coal
> Climate denialism
> Opposing fuel efficiency.
> Supporting big pharma
> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
>
> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
>
> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
>
Yes, _Lynn_ does.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> schrieb:
> I am slightly surprised that I haven't seen more reviews of this.

So, here's one.

I a way, it is classic Weir - we do get the familiar series of "how
does he get out of that one" situations, and it's science-driven,
even though the science is dodgy (see below). I did like it though;
it even offered a positive view on the universe, which is rare by
now in SF.

Also (by now) classic Weir is that he misses points in the science
that driver major plot events.

(Minor spoilers follow).

In _Artemis_, it was an extremely high selectivity of a uncontrolled
chemical reaction, plus assumptions about air exchange rates which
were patently ridiculous. The selectivity alone would have won
the protagonist a Nobel Prize in chemistry.

In _Project Hail Mary_, the basic tenet violated the Second Law
of Thermodynamics (in the energy density of the radiation).

On 2022-10-10, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
>>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>>>
>>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
>>
>> Lets see.
>>
>> It's Fox "News".
>> No numbers given.
>> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
>> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
>> Pro tobacco
>> Pro coal
>> Climate denialism
>> Opposing fuel efficiency.
>> Supporting big pharma
>> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
>>
>> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
>>
>> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
>>
> Yes, _Lynn_ does.

Hmmm... Who exactly is showing their bias and prejudice here?

https://nbc-2.com/news/environment/2022/10/08/electric-vehicle-fires-spark-in-southwest-florida-following-hurricane-ian/

According to North Collier Fire Rescue District, there have been
10 EV fires in all of Collier County since Hurricane Ian.
“If you have one of these vehicles, and it was submerged in
saltwater storm surge, be sure to move it out of your garage and
call the manufacturer for the next steps,” the Cape Coral Fire
Department shared on their Facebook page.

I fail to see how this is not a problem that people in Florida need
to be aware of.

Chris

Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>On 2022-10-10, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>>>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>>>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>>>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
>>>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>>>>
>>>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
>>>
>>> Lets see.
>>>
>>> It's Fox "News".
>>> No numbers given.
>>> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
>>> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
>>> Pro tobacco
>>> Pro coal
>>> Climate denialism
>>> Opposing fuel efficiency.
>>> Supporting big pharma
>>> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
>>>
>>> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
>>>
>>> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
>>>
>> Yes, _Lynn_ does.
>
>Hmmm... Who exactly is showing their bias and prejudice here?
>
>https://nbc-2.com/news/environment/2022/10/08/electric-vehicle-fires-spark-in-southwest-florida-following-hurricane-ian/
>
> According to North Collier Fire Rescue District, there have been
> 10 EV fires in all of Collier County since Hurricane Ian.
> “If you have one of these vehicles, and it was submerged in
> saltwater storm surge, be sure to move it out of your garage and
> call the manufacturer for the next steps,” the Cape Coral Fire
> Department shared on their Facebook page.
>
>I fail to see how this is not a problem that people in Florida need
>to be aware of.

Along with the thousands and thousands of ruined vehicles? I think
Floridians are aware of the problems related to flooding.

On the other hand, there is no need for alarmism or goofy right-wing
think tanks to weigh in.

On 2022-10-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>>On 2022-10-10, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>>>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>>>>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>>>>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>>>>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
>>>>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
>>>>
>>>> Lets see.
>>>>
>>>> It's Fox "News".
>>>> No numbers given.
>>>> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
>>>> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
>>>> Pro tobacco
>>>> Pro coal
>>>> Climate denialism
>>>> Opposing fuel efficiency.
>>>> Supporting big pharma
>>>> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
>>>>
>>>> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
>>>>
>>> Yes, _Lynn_ does.
>>
>>Hmmm... Who exactly is showing their bias and prejudice here?
>>
>>https://nbc-2.com/news/environment/2022/10/08/electric-vehicle-fires-spark-in-southwest-florida-following-hurricane-ian/
>>
>> According to North Collier Fire Rescue District, there have been
>> 10 EV fires in all of Collier County since Hurricane Ian.
>> “If you have one of these vehicles, and it was submerged in
>> saltwater storm surge, be sure to move it out of your garage and
>> call the manufacturer for the next steps,” the Cape Coral Fire
>> Department shared on their Facebook page.
>>
>>I fail to see how this is not a problem that people in Florida need
>>to be aware of.
>
> Along with the thousands and thousands of ruined vehicles? I think
> Floridians are aware of the problems related to flooding.
>
> On the other hand, there is no need for alarmism or goofy right-wing
> think tanks to weigh in.

Perhpas you didn't read the articles or even my quote above. The
danger is not loss of car (I agree, that's minor), it's that your
flooded car in your garage may spontaneously catch on fire and burn
down your house.

I do not think Floridians were aware of *that* problem related to flooding.
Evidently, you disagree.

Chris

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) on Mon, 10 Oct 2022 14:21:45 GMT
typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>>On 2022-10-10, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
>>>>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
>>>>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
>>>>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
>>>>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
>>>>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
>>>>
>>>> Lets see.
>>>>
>>>> It's Fox "News".
>>>> No numbers given.
>>>> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
>>>> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
>>>> Pro tobacco
>>>> Pro coal
>>>> Climate denialism
>>>> Opposing fuel efficiency.
>>>> Supporting big pharma
>>>> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
>>>>
>>>> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
>>>>
>>> Yes, _Lynn_ does.
>>
>>Hmmm... Who exactly is showing their bias and prejudice here?
>>
>>https://nbc-2.com/news/environment/2022/10/08/electric-vehicle-fires-spark-in-southwest-florida-following-hurricane-ian/
>>
>> According to North Collier Fire Rescue District, there have been
>> 10 EV fires in all of Collier County since Hurricane Ian.
>> “If you have one of these vehicles, and it was submerged in
>> saltwater storm surge, be sure to move it out of your garage and
>> call the manufacturer for the next steps,” the Cape Coral Fire
>> Department shared on their Facebook page.
>>
>>I fail to see how this is not a problem that people in Florida need
>>to be aware of.
>
>Along with the thousands and thousands of ruined vehicles? I think
>Floridians are aware of the problems related to flooding.
>
>On the other hand, there is no need for alarmism or goofy right-wing
>think tanks to weigh in.

The issues is that batteries are "energy dense". At some point,
the density reaches a point where it is not a "battery" so much as a
"bomb".

Batteries have always had issues with water. It is just that
currently, electric vehicles have so much in the way of batteries
onboard, that what is a problem in a cell phone / laptop has scaled up
to catastrophic levels in electric bikes / cars.

Basically, until the battery spontaneous combustion issues are
resolved, you are best to park your EV outside, and away from anything
flammable. Houses, trees, cars, other electric vehicles.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 10:00:01 AM UTC-4, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2022-10-10, Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > On 10/9/2022 5:50 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 4:15:02 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>> On 10/9/2022 2:54 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 15:46:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the review. We do have a tremendous visionary in today's
> >>>>> society, Elon Musk. He has managed to build on the knowledge of others
> >>>>> and is creating new knowledge of his own.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And as the saying goes, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" for
> >>>> the campaign to get people to switch to electric cars...
> >>> Uh, not so fast there. “Electric vehicles are exploding from water
> >>> damage after Hurricane Ian, Florida official warns”
> >>>
> >>> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/electric-vehicles-are-exploding-from-water-damage-after-hurricane-ian
> >>
> >> Lets see.
> >>
> >> It's Fox "News".
> >> No numbers given.
> >> Aside from a single video clip, nothing confirmable or checkable.
> >> Opinions from CEI, which is about as regressive an advocate as possible.
> >> Pro tobacco
> >> Pro coal
> >> Climate denialism
> >> Opposing fuel efficiency.
> >> Supporting big pharma
> >> Funded Koch Bros and Tabacco industry, among others.
> >>
> >> https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
> >>
> >> You call this article "fair and balanced"?
> >>
> > Yes, _Lynn_ does.
> Hmmm... Who exactly is showing their bias and prejudice here?
>
> https://nbc-2.com/news/environment/2022/10/08/electric-vehicle-fires-spark-in-southwest-florida-following-hurricane-ian/
>
> According to North Collier Fire Rescue District, there have been
> 10 EV fires in all of Collier County since Hurricane Ian.
> “If you have one of these vehicles, and it was submerged in
> saltwater storm surge, be sure to move it out of your garage and
> call the manufacturer for the next steps,” the Cape Coral Fire
> Department shared on their Facebook page.
>
> I fail to see how this is not a problem that people in Florida need
> to be aware of.

That's a much better article, and yes, it sounds like there's a problem.

Lynn's article was much more of a hit piece, and going to CEI, and
only CEI, for commentary was a very red flag.

It's still a bit over the top - the affected cars aren't 'exploding'. They're
catching fire, which is bad enough, and it certainly sounds like you
don't want to keep an EV that's been flooded inside a garage.

To get geeky, Tesla is moving to a 'Structural battery pack', in which the
batter is hermetically sealed (and essentially unmaintainable once sealed).
This will probably reduce the chance of water incursion

In normal use, Teslas catch fire at about 1/10th the rate per mile
driven as ICE cars.

pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f941f393-73de-47a2-9a53-81a79460e19bn@googlegroups.com:

> In normal use, Teslas catch fire at about 1/10th the rate per
> mile driven as ICE cars.
>
They are, however, much more challenging to *put* *out*, because once
ignited, the batteries will keep reigniting until they are completley
drained (and they hold a *lot* of energy). Bigger fire despartmetns
have taken to having giant dumpsters they can fill with water and
dump the car into, and junkyards have reported EVs reignting as much
as two weeks after arriving.

(I will note that once the "solid state" batteries - the ones with
non-liquid electrolyte - are commonly available, fire will largely
cease to be an issue with EVs. That's probably still a couple of
years out, though.)

(All that aside from the still developing standards on how to run the
wiring, and how to mark where it is, so that first responders don't
electrocute themselves trying to extract someone from a crashed
vehicles. That's a rapdily disappearing problem, though it was a
seriousy one for a while.)

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <XnsAF2C86393473taustingmail@85.12.62.245>,
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:f941f393-73de-47a2-9a53-81a79460e19bn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> In normal use, Teslas catch fire at about 1/10th the rate per
>> mile driven as ICE cars.
>>
>They are, however, much more challenging to *put* *out*, because once
>ignited, the batteries will keep reigniting until they are completley
>drained (and they hold a *lot* of energy). Bigger fire despartmetns
>have taken to having giant dumpsters they can fill with water and
>dump the car into, and junkyards have reported EVs reignting as much
>as two weeks after arriving.
>
>(I will note that once the "solid state" batteries - the ones with
>non-liquid electrolyte - are commonly available, fire will largely
>cease to be an issue with EVs. That's probably still a couple of
>years out, though.)
>
>(All that aside from the still developing standards on how to run the
>wiring, and how to mark where it is, so that first responders don't
>electrocute themselves trying to extract someone from a crashed
>vehicles. That's a rapdily disappearing problem, though it was a
>seriousy one for a while.)

So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
hard...

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:rJK53G.1H2D@kithrup.com:

> In article <XnsAF2C86393473taustingmail@85.12.62.245>,
> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:f941f393-73de-47a2-9a53-81a79460e19bn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> In normal use, Teslas catch fire at about 1/10th the rate per
>>> mile driven as ICE cars.
>>>
>>They are, however, much more challenging to *put* *out*, because
>>once ignited, the batteries will keep reigniting until they are
>>completley drained (and they hold a *lot* of energy). Bigger
>>fire despartmetns have taken to having giant dumpsters they can
>>fill with water and dump the car into, and junkyards have
>>reported EVs reignting as much as two weeks after arriving.
>>
>>(I will note that once the "solid state" batteries - the ones
>>with non-liquid electrolyte - are commonly available, fire will
>>largely cease to be an issue with EVs. That's probably still a
>>couple of years out, though.)
>>
>>(All that aside from the still developing standards on how to
>>run the wiring, and how to mark where it is, so that first
>>responders don't electrocute themselves trying to extract
>>someone from a crashed vehicles. That's a rapdily disappearing
>>problem, though it was a seriousy one for a while.)
>
> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light
> Titanium on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery
> fires is hard...
>
The guy who came up with the first working "lithium metal" battery
- with a solid electrolite - has an interesting demo of it. He'll
put a lithium ion batter in a hydraulic press, and it will catch on
fire explosively. Then he will had you an iPad, with an external
battery (of the usual size), and a pair of scissors, and tell you
to cut pices off the battery. No fire, no smoke, no danger at all,
down to a postage size - and the iPad is still running. (They are
also supposed to store twice as much energy as lithium ion.)

Those are, I believe, just now on the verge of getting on the
market.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
> on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
> hard...

Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
used in flash bulbs.
But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
catch fire.
But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when magnesium
was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was discovered
that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy that
will not catch fire.
Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not pose
a fire hazard?

John Savard

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 5:04:54 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Hal Heydt wrote:
>
> > So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
> > High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
> > on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
> > hard...
> Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
> used in flash bulbs.
> But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
> alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
> catch fire.
> But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when magnesium
> was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was discovered
> that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy that
> will not catch fire.
> Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not pose
> a fire hazard?

I have just checked on this. While Titanium alloys involving copper and
aluminum are used in aviation, these alloys, which are considered fire-resistant
only burn much slower than other alloys or pure titanum; it is not the case that
they do not burn at all.

John Savard

In article <21b43580-c001-4c26-87d3-1cc2c1ad0ee3n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
>> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
>> on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
>> hard...
>
>Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
>used in flash bulbs.
>But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
>alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
>catch fire.
>But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when magnesium
>was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was discovered
>that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy that
>will not catch fire.
>Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not pose
>a fire hazard?

(Hal Heydt)
Possibly... I don't know if anyone has tried and what effect
alloying the Titanium has on its other properties. Magnesium is
fairly easy to ignite so there is a real incentive--if you want
to use it at all--to find safer alloys. Titanium is hard to
ignite, though if you manage to do it, it's all but impossible to
put out.

In article <rJKInL.96p@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <21b43580-c001-4c26-87d3-1cc2c1ad0ee3n@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
> >> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
> >> on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
> >> hard...
> >
> >Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
> >used in flash bulbs.
> >But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
> >alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
> >catch fire.
> >But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when magnesium
> >was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was discovered
> >that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy that
> >will not catch fire.
> >Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not pose
> >a fire hazard?
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Possibly... I don't know if anyone has tried and what effect
> alloying the Titanium has on its other properties. Magnesium is
> fairly easy to ignite so there is a real incentive--if you want
> to use it at all--to find safer alloys. Titanium is hard to
> ignite, though if you manage to do it, it's all but impossible to
> put out.

There are not very many substances that can burn in an atmosphere of
pure nitrogen.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 10/10/2022 11:44 PM, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <rJKInL.96p@kithrup.com>,
> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> In article <21b43580-c001-4c26-87d3-1cc2c1ad0ee3n@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>>> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
>>>> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
>>>> on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
>>>> hard...
>>>
>>> Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
>>> used in flash bulbs.
>>> But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
>>> alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
>>> catch fire.
>>> But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when magnesium
>>> was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was discovered
>>> that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy that
>>> will not catch fire.
>>> Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not pose
>>> a fire hazard?
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Possibly... I don't know if anyone has tried and what effect
>> alloying the Titanium has on its other properties. Magnesium is
>> fairly easy to ignite so there is a real incentive--if you want
>> to use it at all--to find safer alloys. Titanium is hard to
>> ignite, though if you manage to do it, it's all but impossible to
>> put out.
>
> There are not very many substances that can burn in an atmosphere of
> pure nitrogen.

How about five pounds of liquid plutonium in a bucket ?

Lynn

On 10/10/2022 9:47 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/10/2022 11:44 PM, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <rJKInL.96p@kithrup.com>,
>>   djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <21b43580-c001-4c26-87d3-1cc2c1ad0ee3n@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Quadibloc  <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So long as they don't start using Titanium structural members.
>>>>> High current DC arc is one of the few ways you can light Titanium
>>>>> on fire and if you think putting out Lithium battery fires is
>>>>> hard...
>>>>
>>>> Magnesium, of course, catches fire quite easily. That's why it was
>>>> used in flash bulbs.
>>>> But when it is used to make light-weight metal items, it is usually
>>>> alloyed with aluminum. This considerably reduces its tendency to
>>>> catch fire.
>>>> But it doesn't eleminate it completely, as was discovered when
>>>> magnesium
>>>> was first used to make racing cars. Shortly after, though, it was
>>>> discovered
>>>> that if you alloy magnesium with _calcium_, you can produce an alloy
>>>> that
>>>> will not catch fire.
>>>> Surely it would also be possible to make Titanum alloys that do not
>>>> pose
>>>> a fire hazard?
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Possibly...  I don't know if anyone has tried and what effect
>>> alloying the Titanium has on its other properties.  Magnesium is
>>> fairly easy to ignite so there is a real incentive--if you want
>>> to use it at all--to find safer alloys.  Titanium is hard to
>>> ignite, though if you manage to do it, it's all but impossible to
>>> put out.
>>
>> There are not very many substances that can burn in an atmosphere of
>> pure nitrogen.
>
> How about five pounds of liquid plutonium in a bucket ?
>
I don't think "burning" is the appropriate word to describe what that does.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.