I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
Empires, Neil Clarke editor.

As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
from the library.

This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
but find out it's stuff you liked.

Brian

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 06:29:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
<defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
>Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>
>As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
>the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
>Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
>evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
>from the library.
>
>This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
>Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
>disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
>but find out it's stuff you liked.

Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
and check it before getting another.

But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
become more trouble than it is worth.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 05/10/2022 11.24, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 06:29:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
> <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
>> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>>
>> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
>> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
>> Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
>> evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
>>from the library.
>>
>> This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
>> Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
>> disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
>> but find out it's stuff you liked.
>
> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
> and check it before getting another.
>
> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
> become more trouble than it is worth.

I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.

Paul S Person wrote:

>On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 06:29:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
><defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I
>>didn't see any evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably
>>read it in hardcover from the library.

>Theoretically, you could keep a list of every book you ever read,
>and check it before getting another.

I did that for a while, but stopped updating the list in 2013. These
days, I am almost exclusively reading e-books, so I will have a record
of that. Even library books I leave the file in the Adobe or Kindle
folder.

Brian

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:15:57 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 05/10/2022 11.24, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 06:29:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
> > <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
> >> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
> >>
> >> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
> >> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
> >> Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
> >> evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
> >>from the library.
> >>
> >> This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
> >> Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
> >> disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
> >> but find out it's stuff you liked.
> >
> > Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
> > and check it before getting another.
> >
> > But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
> > become more trouble than it is worth.
> I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
> haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?

It depends on what kind of log you keep. If it's one sentence per book,
it's unlikely to cause an issue. If it's one paragraph per book (the
way Don D'Ammassa does it -- see
https://www.dondammassa.com/R2C2022.htm), it shouldn't be a
big deal either. However, if you tend to write longer reviews, it can
become a chore. For example, my file of read Worm fan fics
covers 1,698 entries and is over 500K words or 250 words per
fic. And that's Worm fics, which include quite a few one shots.

On Wednesday, 5 October 2022 at 07:30:04 UTC+1, Default User wrote:
> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>
> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
> Apparently I read this at some time in the past.

That wouldn't necessarily make it familiar, if it was me.

Of course there's the whole sneaky "old book with a
new title" trick, too. Maybe you met it as, let's suppose,
_World of the Imperiums_. Or _The Empires Strike Back_.

On 05/10/2022 20.21, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:15:57 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 05/10/2022 11.24, Paul S Person wrote:

>>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>>> and check it before getting another.
>>>
>>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>> I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>> haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?
>
> It depends on what kind of log you keep. If it's one sentence per book,
> it's unlikely to cause an issue. If it's one paragraph per book (the
> way Don D'Ammassa does it -- see
> https://www.dondammassa.com/R2C2022.htm), it shouldn't be a
> big deal either.

It's much simpler, along the lines of what Paul said, "a list of every
book you ever read."

One three-field entry per book. The fields are: author, title, date finished.

$ tail -3 Read2022
Bova, Ben The Many Worlds of Science Fiction 09/11/22
Moore, C.L. Judgment Night 09/19/22
Nourse, Alan E. Tiger by the Tail 09/21/22
$

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

In article <thmk0e$3ckrm$1@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 05/10/2022 20.21, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:15:57 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> On 05/10/2022 11.24, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>>>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>>>> and check it before getting another.
>>>>
>>>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>>>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>>> I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>>> haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?
>>
>> It depends on what kind of log you keep. If it's one sentence per book,
>> it's unlikely to cause an issue. If it's one paragraph per book (the
>> way Don D'Ammassa does it -- see
>> https://www.dondammassa.com/R2C2022.htm), it shouldn't be a
>> big deal either.
>
>It's much simpler, along the lines of what Paul said, "a list of every
>book you ever read."
>
>One three-field entry per book. The fields are: author, title, date finished.
>
>$ tail -3 Read2022
>Bova, Ben The Many Worlds of Science Fiction 09/11/22
>Moore, C.L. Judgment Night 09/19/22
>Nourse, Alan E. Tiger by the Tail 09/21/22
>$
>

Nice to see Nourse still being read. I probably checked out _Raiders From
The Rings_ 50+ times from my school & public libraries. _The Universe
Between_ & _Scavengers In Space_ were up there too.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Default User wrote:
> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>
> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
> Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
> evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
> from the library.

There was a previous _Galactic Empires_ edited by Brian W. Aldiss, that would have given me pause, but a look at the contents of this shows no overlap..

(ISFDB shows a third _Galactic Empires_ between these two, it looks to be original fiction edited by Gardner Dozois, it shares only "The Man with the Golden Balloon" with the other. Someone or sometwo ought to collect an anthology or two on galactic empire stories between the 1950s and the 2000s. I know just the title for it.)

--
-Jack

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 15:15:53 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 05/10/2022 11.24, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 06:29:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
>> <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
>>> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>>>
>>> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
>>> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
>>> Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
>>> evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
>>>from the library.
>>>
>>> This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
>>> Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
>>> disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
>>> but find out it's stuff you liked.
>>
>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>> and check it before getting another.
>>
>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>
>I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?

Depends on how fanatical you are about it.

When I rent an older film for streaming now, I have to check both a
three-sheet ODS file /and/ Quicken to be certain I never saw it
before.

And if you buy anthologies then you have to have a record of what's
/in/ the anthology, particularly novels and short novels, but also to
see if the "new" anthology actually has any stories you don't already
have, so it's no longer a simple list but has sub-lists. Or a separate
Sheet if using a spreadsheet that has those.

If you want to categorize your books, then non-fiction (in particular)
can get rough: a book on, say, the Battle of the Bulge can be
categorized by the battle itself, books about battles, books about
WWII (which themselves can be about the whole shebang, the Western
Allies, Western Europe after D-Day, the German Army ... etc), books
about the USA Army, books about the German Army, not to mention books
about the various commanders ... it can get very nasty.

IOW, the normal crud that appears whenever I (at least) try to catalog
reality. It's /never/ as simple as it seems it ought to be.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 06/10/2022 09.02, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <thmk0e$3ckrm$1@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>> It's much simpler, along the lines of what Paul said, "a list of every
>> book you ever read."
>>
>> One three-field entry per book. The fields are: author, title, date finished.
>>
>> $ tail -3 Read2022
>> Bova, Ben The Many Worlds of Science Fiction 09/11/22
>> Moore, C.L. Judgment Night 09/19/22
>> Nourse, Alan E. Tiger by the Tail 09/21/22
>> $
>
> Nice to see Nourse still being read. I probably checked out _Raiders From
> The Rings_ 50+ times from my school & public libraries. _The Universe
> Between_ & _Scavengers In Space_ were up there too.

It was my first Nourse, picked up at age ten from the wire rack at
a sleazy gas station. The stories are pretty quirky, except for the
lead story, "Brightside Crossing", which is pretty straightforward
action-adventure.

At thirteen, I found _The Universe Between_ and _Psi High and Others_
in my junior high library. It was the first time that I encountered
the idea of otherwise unrelated stories having a common background,
in this case, The Hoffman Medical Center.

All of these are now on my shelves, as is Raiders. However, my book
log shows that I read it once -- in 1996 -- and haven't picked it up
since then.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 15:15:53 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>> and check it before getting another.
>>
>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>
>I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?

Years ago when I had an Apple II I created an Appleworks database of
books I owned (which obviously was a subset of books I'd read since my
mother got me my library card when I was 10 and took me there once or
twice a month until I got my drivers' licence)

Then Apple discontinued the Apple II and tried to get people like me
to buy Macs but didn't provide a way to port your datafiles from
Appleworks (Apple II) to Appleworks (Mac) and I said to myself "if I
have to trash all my software and files including this database why
should I spent my money with those who made me do so?"

The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....

On 10/10/2022 03.04, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 15:15:53 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>>> and check it before getting another.
>>>
>>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>>
>> I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>> haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?
>
> Years ago when I had an Apple II I created an Appleworks database of
> books I owned (which obviously was a subset of books I'd read since my
> mother got me my library card when I was 10 and took me there once or
> twice a month until I got my drivers' licence)
>
> Then Apple discontinued the Apple II and tried to get people like me
> to buy Macs but didn't provide a way to port your datafiles from
> Appleworks (Apple II) to Appleworks (Mac) and I said to myself "if I
> have to trash all my software and files including this database why
> should I spent my money with those who made me do so?"
>
> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....

Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
for any future inter-OS transfers.

--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at
<http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm>
Please read it before posting.

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/10/2022 03.04, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 15:15:53 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Theoretically, you /could/ keep a list of every book you ever read,
>>>> and check it before getting another.
>>>>
>>>> But I wouldn't recommend it, as it is the sort of thing that tends to
>>>> become more trouble than it is worth.
>>>
>>> I've kept a reading log since 1992, when I got my first PC. I
>>> haven't noticed any trouble. What types of problem do you envision?
>>
>> Years ago when I had an Apple II I created an Appleworks database of
>> books I owned (which obviously was a subset of books I'd read since my
>> mother got me my library card when I was 10 and took me there once or
>> twice a month until I got my drivers' licence)
>>
>> Then Apple discontinued the Apple II and tried to get people like me
>> to buy Macs but didn't provide a way to port your datafiles from
>> Appleworks (Apple II) to Appleworks (Mac) and I said to myself "if I
>> have to trash all my software and files including this database why
>> should I spent my money with those who made me do so?"
>>
>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>
>Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>for any future inter-OS transfers.

I've kept my inventory in a mysql database for the last two decades;
simple to export into a set of SQL inserts for portability and easly
scripted:

testt (which without arguments lists all entries; with argument restricts
to those matching the first argument to testt).

$ testt | wc -l
Enter password:
2453

function testt
{ echo "select artist, title from media where title like '%${1}%' order by artist, title;" | \
mysql -p ${DATABASE}
}

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 07:59:54 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>
>Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>for any future inter-OS transfers.
>
These days I'd just e-mail it to myself with the Appleworks
spreadsheet as an attachment to see if it worked and if not try again
as a CSV. I don't think Appleworks supported that in the late 80s
early 90s but I could be wrong.

Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
anything of the sort.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:28:47 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 07:59:54 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
><michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>>
>>Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>>from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>>for any future inter-OS transfers.
>>
>These days I'd just e-mail it to myself with the Appleworks
>spreadsheet as an attachment to see if it worked and if not try again
>as a CSV. I don't think Appleworks supported that in the late 80s
>early 90s but I could be wrong.

I was going to ask if something like that was possible, but you beat
me to it.

I have no idea what Appleworks did, BTW, never having experienced it.

I do have experience using CSV to move data from a database I wrote in
Clarion to a low-cost home inventory program. It turned out to be less
simple than I had hoped: apparently, there is no clear standard
definition of "CSV", just some general ideas.

>Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>anything of the sort.

At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
pioneer.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 10/11/2022 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:28:47 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 07:59:54 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>>>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>>>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>>>
>>> Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>> >from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>>> for any future inter-OS transfers.
>>>
>> These days I'd just e-mail it to myself with the Appleworks
>> spreadsheet as an attachment to see if it worked and if not try again
>> as a CSV. I don't think Appleworks supported that in the late 80s
>> early 90s but I could be wrong.
>
> I was going to ask if something like that was possible, but you beat
> me to it.
>
> I have no idea what Appleworks did, BTW, never having experienced it.
>
> I do have experience using CSV to move data from a database I wrote in
> Clarion to a low-cost home inventory program. It turned out to be less
> simple than I had hoped: apparently, there is no clear standard
> definition of "CSV", just some general ideas.
>
>> Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>> anything of the sort.
>
> At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
> one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
> only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
> pioneer.

Huh, we lived to port our engineering software on the big iron before
PCs became usable. At one point in the late 1970s we were supporting
the Univac 1108 (36 bit), CDC 7600 (60 bit), IBM 370 (32 bit) MVS and
CMS, the Prime 750 (32 bit), and something else that I cannot remember.
We dropped the Univac 1108 in 1982 and took on the first DEC VMS (32
bit) machine in 1984 ???. We briefly added the IBM AT/370 in 1985 and
outgrew it in a hurry (there was a 6 MB hard limit on code and data).
And we brought out our first 80386 / 80387 version on MSDOS in 1986
using the Pharlap memory extender.

Lynn

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:46:56 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:28:47 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 07:59:54 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>><michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>>>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>>>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>>>
>>>Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>>>from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>>>for any future inter-OS transfers.
>>>
>>These days I'd just e-mail it to myself with the Appleworks
>>spreadsheet as an attachment to see if it worked and if not try again
>>as a CSV. I don't think Appleworks supported that in the late 80s
>>early 90s but I could be wrong.
>
>I was going to ask if something like that was possible, but you beat
>me to it.
>
>I have no idea what Appleworks did, BTW, never having experienced it.
>
>I do have experience using CSV to move data from a database I wrote in
>Clarion to a low-cost home inventory program. It turned out to be less
>simple than I had hoped: apparently, there is no clear standard
>definition of "CSV", just some general ideas.
>
>>Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>>anything of the sort.
>
>At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
>one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
>only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
>pioneer.

I can't recall whether I made a CSV off the Apple II or not - though I
>did< have first a 1200 then a 2400 baud modem on my II.

Obviously 25 years later my broadband file transfer speed is at what
would have been unimaginable levels then and that's true of nearly all
of us.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:46:56 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>>anything of the sort.
>
>At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
>one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
>only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
>pioneer.

A big part of the problem as I recall was that the II used 5.25"
floppies while the Mac never used anything but 3.5" floppies.

Because hard drives were not yet common while there were BBSes at that
time (which I certainly used having had a 1200 baud modem on a card
that went into an Apple II slot) I didn't get my first hard drive till
the MS-DOS machine that ended up replacing the II.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:53:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/11/2022 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:28:47 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 07:59:54 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
>>> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The fact that I can list (as I demonstrated to my son earlier this
>>>>> year) all the version numbers of MS-DOS and Windows in order from
>>>>> beginning to end should tell you the choice I made.....
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, my log was a simple text file, which easily transferred
>>> >from DR-DOS to MS-DOS and thence to linux. I can't foresee any need
>>>> for any future inter-OS transfers.
>>>>
>>> These days I'd just e-mail it to myself with the Appleworks
>>> spreadsheet as an attachment to see if it worked and if not try again
>>> as a CSV. I don't think Appleworks supported that in the late 80s
>>> early 90s but I could be wrong.
>>
>> I was going to ask if something like that was possible, but you beat
>> me to it.
>>
>> I have no idea what Appleworks did, BTW, never having experienced it.
>>
>> I do have experience using CSV to move data from a database I wrote in
>> Clarion to a low-cost home inventory program. It turned out to be less
>> simple than I had hoped: apparently, there is no clear standard
>> definition of "CSV", just some general ideas.
>>
>>> Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>>> anything of the sort.
>>
>> At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
>> one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
>> only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
>> pioneer.
>
>Huh, we lived to port our engineering software on the big iron before
>PCs became usable. At one point in the late 1970s we were supporting
>the Univac 1108 (36 bit), CDC 7600 (60 bit), IBM 370 (32 bit) MVS and
>CMS, the Prime 750 (32 bit), and something else that I cannot remember.
>We dropped the Univac 1108 in 1982 and took on the first DEC VMS (32
>bit) machine in 1984 ???. We briefly added the IBM AT/370 in 1985 and
>outgrew it in a hurry (there was a 6 MB hard limit on code and data).
>And we brought out our first 80386 / 80387 version on MSDOS in 1986
>using the Pharlap memory extender.

I remember most of those in my undergraduate days though my grad
school was big on DEC VAX machines and their ilk scattered around
campus. They saved the "big iron" for the university's own
administrative needs (payroll, scheduling etc)

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:18:15 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:46:56 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>Certainly no salesman who was trying to sell me a Mac suggested
>>>anything of the sort.
>>
>>At that time, the concept of porting from one computer to a different
>>one was probably not all that well known. And I think Apple was the
>>only replacing one of its computers with another, and so was a
>>pioneer.
>
>A big part of the problem as I recall was that the II used 5.25"
>floppies while the Mac never used anything but 3.5" floppies.
>
>Because hard drives were not yet common while there were BBSes at that
>time (which I certainly used having had a 1200 baud modem on a card
>that went into an Apple II slot) I didn't get my first hard drive till
>the MS-DOS machine that ended up replacing the II.

And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 11:06:55 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
> Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
> had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).

Oh, indeed. Apple II disks had two formats, the original one, and a denser
improved one. The original one encoded four data bits into eight bits on the
disk. The improved one encoded five data bits into eight bits on the disk.

Everybody else, who used fancy custom silicon for their floppy disk controllers,
encoded _eight_ data bits at a time, into ten (or eleven or twelve) bits on the
disk - but Apple had Steve Wozniak working for them.

So the Apple II went beyond just having an Apple-specific disk format, like
many other computers out there with floppy disk drives. It had a fundamentally
unique disk format at the lowest level.

John Savard

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 10:06:50 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>A big part of the problem as I recall was that the II used 5.25"
>>floppies while the Mac never used anything but 3.5" floppies.
>>
>>Because hard drives were not yet common while there were BBSes at that
>>time (which I certainly used having had a 1200 baud modem on a card
>>that went into an Apple II slot) I didn't get my first hard drive till
>>the MS-DOS machine that ended up replacing the II.
>
>And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
>Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
>had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).

Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.

If my memory seems fuzzy - it was 1985-90 approximately after all

On 2022-10-05 12:29 a.m., Default User wrote:
> I've been reading SF anthologies of late. The most recent is Galactic
> Empires, Neil Clarke editor.
>
> As it's not an original anthology, I wasn't too surprised when some of
> the first stories were familiar. Problem was, they all seemed familiar.
> Apparently I read this at some time in the past. I didn't see any
> evidence of it in Adobe or Kindle, so I probably read it in hardcover
> from the library.
>
> This is an e-book from the library, so it's not like it cost any money.
> Still, I haven't had this happen in quite some time and it's a bit
> disappointing when you think you've good a book full of stuff you like,
> but find out it's stuff you liked.
>

It's a very generic anthology title. Such things that can lead to
confusion.

On Friday, October 14, 2022 at 2:34:52 PM UTC-6, The Horny Goat wrote:

> >And the 5.25" format would, no doubt, have turned out to be
> >Apple-specific. Which isn't unusual; my first computer (a NS Horizon)
> >had its own format (well, two of them if you added CP/M).

> Didn't know that about the North Star but the Apple II and CP/M used
> different formats though Apple made a CP/M add on card that made the
> II a "CP/M box". So far as I know I only used one CP/M application and
> trashed it when Appleworks 1.0 came out.

It's interesting that you mention the Apple _and_ North Star when discussing
disk format incompatibilities. Because, while in those days, nearly every
computer's disk format was incompatible with every other computer's disk
format, *those* two were extreme outliers.

Let's take the Apple II first. Most 5 1/4" floppies used a specialized integrated
circuit that translated eight bits of data from the computer into ten bits which
satisfied certain conditions to directly record on the disk.
The Apple, having been made in the early days of microcomputers, didn't
use that circuit - it was too expensive or hard to get. Instead, Wozniak's
genius let them use standard TTL. Software split the data up into units
of five or six bits (there were two distinct schemes used by Apple, the
original one with five, and the improved one with six) and those were
translated into units of eight bits, which could be recorded on the disk
with a standard MSI part doing the work.

North Star was an outlier in a completely different way. It was one of
the few computers that used "hard sectored" disks. To some of those
who read this, that phrase will bring a flood of circa 1977 memories
flooding back.
A normal floppy disk, in addition to the big hole in the center for the
spindle, has one tiny hole in the magnetic surface, which is sensed
photoelectrically, to indicate where the first sector of each track should
start.
A hard sectored disk, on the other hand, might have eight little holes,
one for each sector, plus one extra hole to indicate which sector was
first.

So those were perhaps the two most incompatible disk formats in
all computerdom!

John Savard