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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

SubjectAuthor
* "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
+* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
|+* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirDorothy J Heydt
||+- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
||`- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpete...@gmail.com
|`* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpeterwezeman@hotmail.com
| `* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpeterwezeman@hotmail.com
|  `* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
|   +* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpete...@gmail.com
|   |+* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
|   ||`- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpete...@gmail.com
|   |`- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weirpeterwezeman@hotmail.com
|   `- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirScott Lurndal
+* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirThomas Koenig
|+- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
|`- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirDavid Duffy
+* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirDefault User
|`* Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire
| `- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirDefault User
`- Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy WeirLynn McGuire

1
"Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tin05d$1tpb$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=80682&group=rec.arts.sf.written#80682

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:52:11 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Tue, 18 Oct 2022 19:52 UTC

"Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/

A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
will be a sequel some day.

If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
his new book 'Artemis' believable"
https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11

Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
them.

The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
the Moon. Once, a colony is established.

My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tinm6o$3ur1i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 21:08:24 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 02:08 UTC

On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>    https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>
> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon.  Hopefully there
> will be a sequel some day.
>
> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here.  The only
> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.  I have a problem
> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>
> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> she was six years old, the legal minimum age.  She grew up in Artemis
> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted.  She has a good heart
> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished.  So
> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> extra cash.  And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> them.
>
> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it.  I do
> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon.  And
> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> the Moon.  Once, a colony is established.
>
> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>
> Lynn

From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
at sub-atmospheric pressures."

"Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
the Soviets would have tried."

So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
each.

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<rJzB95.6u6@kithrup.com>

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Message-ID: <rJzB95.6u6@kithrup.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 02:36:41 GMT
References: <tin05d$1tpb$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tinm6o$3ur1i$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 02:36 UTC

In article <tinm6o$3ur1i$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>>    https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>
>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon.  Hopefully there
>> will be a sequel some day.
>>
>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here.  The only
>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.  I have a problem
>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>>
>>
>https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>>
>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age.  She grew up in Artemis
>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted.  She has a good heart
>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished.  So
>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
>> extra cash.  And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
>> them.
>>
>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it.  I do
>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon.  And
>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
>> the Moon.  Once, a colony is established.
>>
>> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
>> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>>
>> Lynn
>
> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
>any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
>are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
>not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
>to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
>at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>
>"Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
>would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
>tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
>the Soviets would have tried."
>
>So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
>atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
>extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
>resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
>Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
>hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
>each.

(Hal Heydt)
IIRC, the Apollo capsules used 3 psia Oxygen, thus matching Earth
sea level partial pressure. 5 psia might cause problems. It
will also be necessary to add a very small amount of CO2 or you'll
get respiratory issues.

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tinpdo$3v2vi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 22:03:20 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 03:03 UTC

On 10/18/2022 9:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tinm6o$3ur1i$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>>>    https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>>
>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon.  Hopefully there
>>> will be a sequel some day.
>>>
>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here.  The only
>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.  I have a problem
>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>>>
>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age.  She grew up in Artemis
>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted.  She has a good heart
>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished.  So
>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
>>> extra cash.  And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
>>> them.
>>>
>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it.  I do
>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon.  And
>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
>>> the Moon.  Once, a colony is established.
>>>
>>> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
>>> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>>
>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
>> the Soviets would have tried."
>>
>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
>> each.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> IIRC, the Apollo capsules used 3 psia Oxygen, thus matching Earth
> sea level partial pressure. 5 psia might cause problems. It
> will also be necessary to add a very small amount of CO2 or you'll
> get respiratory issues.

Yup, I just got through reading this:
https://lunarpedia.org/w/Lunar_Settlement_Artificial_Atmosphere

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 03:07 UTC

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:47:00 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tinm6o$3ur1i$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> >> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> >>
> >> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of..
> >> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> >> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> >> will be a sequel some day.
> >>
> >> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> >> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> >> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> >> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> >> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> >> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> >> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> >>
> >> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> >> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> >> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> >> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> >> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> >> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> >> them.
> >>
> >> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> >> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> >> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> >> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> >>
> >> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> >> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> >any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> >are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> >not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> >to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> >at sub-atmospheric pressures."
> >
> >"Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> >would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> >tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> >the Soviets would have tried."
> >
> >So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> >atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> >extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> >resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> >Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> >hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> >each.
> (Hal Heydt)
> IIRC, the Apollo capsules used 3 psia Oxygen, thus matching Earth
> sea level partial pressure. 5 psia might cause problems. It
> will also be necessary to add a very small amount of CO2 or you'll
> get respiratory issues.

Apollo 1, which burned, used 100% oxygen at 16 psi during ground
tests, which contributed to the fire. Starting with Apollo 7, NASA
switched to 60% oxygen 40% Nitrogen at 16 psi for ground tests. In flight,
Apollo used 5 psi pure Oxygen.

The ISS uses what is essentially normal air at sea level pressure, but
the EVA spacesuits operate at 4.3 psi of pure Oxygen. The low pressure
Is needed to make joints bendable.

Pt

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tio3p2$1stkm$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de>

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 06:00 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:

> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.

I have a few more problems with the books, specifically with the
grand finale.

Spoiners follow.
The heroine causes a runaway reaction which emits lots of chloroform
(aka trichloromethane). This puts everybody in the colony to
sleep all at once, leaving her to save the day, and the colony.
Afterwards, people are a bit miffed, but there are no long-term
ill effects.

I have the following problems with that:

Chloroform dosage is tricky. To quote the Gestis database,
https://gestis.dguv.de/data?name=012870&lang=en :

# The sweet odour of T can be perceived from approx. 200 ppm
# (approx. 1000 mg/m³). The warning effect of this odour is
# insufficient, particularly after prolonged or repeated exposure,
# since toxic effects already occur below this concentration. [8089]
#
# Depending on the concentration, the inhalation of vapours is
# followed by local irritations that are followed by disorders of
# the central nervous system. Symptoms after experimental short-time
# exposure included:
#
# - 5000 mg/m3 (1010 ppm), after 7 minutes: vertigo, pressure in
# the head, nausea, as after-effect: headache, fatigue,
#
# - 7200 mg/m³ (1454 ppm), after several minutes: vertigo,
#
# - 20000 mg/m³ (4040 ppm): vertigo, fainting.
#
# It is known from an earlier application of T as anaesthetic that the
# intoxication phase (central agitation) is reached at concentrations
# of 0.5‒0.7 vol% (5000‒7000 ppm), and a deep general anaesthesia
# requires approx. 1.4 vol% T. Higher concentrations are soon lethal
# (asphyctic phase commences from approx. 1.6 vol%).

So there is a very slim window between losing conciousness fast
and lethal effects (1.4 to 1.6 vol-% is not a lot).

So, an accidental release of Chloroform then puts everybody to sleep,
all with the same dose. This is an artificial base, with artificial
air exchange. Assume 3-6 per hour (as for recommendations for offices),
and the effect will certainly take some minutes, time enough for
people to take notice. It is also not realistic that all rooms on
the base get the Chloroform at the same time.

Next, the reaction itself. Technically, Trichlormethane is made
by reacting Methane (or Chloromethane) with Chlorine, and you get
a mixture of all Chloromethanes, from CH3Cl to CCl4, and HCl.
This is an equilibrium reaction, so there is always a mixture.

It is impossible that a runaway reaction should have a higher
selectivity, and not generate HCl in the process. The other
Chloromethanes are more toxic, and also more corrosive, but the
HCl alone would be enough to totally wreck the station.

I like it when people do hard science, I just don't like it when
they get it wrong at a level that a quick read of Wikipedia
shows to be impossible.

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: peterwez...@hotmail.com (peterwezeman@hotmail.com)
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 by: peterwezeman@hotmail - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 06:03 UTC

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> > https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> >
> > A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> > I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> > Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> > will be a sequel some day.
> >
> > If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> > thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> > atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> > with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> > Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> > colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> > his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> >
> > https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> >
> > Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> > she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> > and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> > but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> > she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> > extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> > them.
> >
> > The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> > not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> > it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> > the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> >
> > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> >
> > Lynn
> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>
> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> the Soviets would have tried."
>
> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> each.
>
According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html

Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
"To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.

After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.

From Wikipedia:

"The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
(60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 15:51:59 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 20:51 UTC

On 10/19/2022 1:00 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.
>
> I have a few more problems with the books, specifically with the
> grand finale.
>
> Spoiners follow.
>
> The heroine causes a runaway reaction which emits lots of chloroform
> (aka trichloromethane). This puts everybody in the colony to
> sleep all at once, leaving her to save the day, and the colony.
> Afterwards, people are a bit miffed, but there are no long-term
> ill effects.
>
> I have the following problems with that:
>
> Chloroform dosage is tricky. To quote the Gestis database,
> https://gestis.dguv.de/data?name=012870&lang=en :
>
> # The sweet odour of T can be perceived from approx. 200 ppm
> # (approx. 1000 mg/m³). The warning effect of this odour is
> # insufficient, particularly after prolonged or repeated exposure,
> # since toxic effects already occur below this concentration. [8089]
> #
> # Depending on the concentration, the inhalation of vapours is
> # followed by local irritations that are followed by disorders of
> # the central nervous system. Symptoms after experimental short-time
> # exposure included:
> #
> # - 5000 mg/m3 (1010 ppm), after 7 minutes: vertigo, pressure in
> # the head, nausea, as after-effect: headache, fatigue,
> #
> # - 7200 mg/m³ (1454 ppm), after several minutes: vertigo,
> #
> # - 20000 mg/m³ (4040 ppm): vertigo, fainting.
> #
> # It is known from an earlier application of T as anaesthetic that the
> # intoxication phase (central agitation) is reached at concentrations
> # of 0.5‒0.7 vol% (5000‒7000 ppm), and a deep general anaesthesia
> # requires approx. 1.4 vol% T. Higher concentrations are soon lethal
> # (asphyctic phase commences from approx. 1.6 vol%).
>
> So there is a very slim window between losing conciousness fast
> and lethal effects (1.4 to 1.6 vol-% is not a lot).
>
> So, an accidental release of Chloroform then puts everybody to sleep,
> all with the same dose. This is an artificial base, with artificial
> air exchange. Assume 3-6 per hour (as for recommendations for offices),
> and the effect will certainly take some minutes, time enough for
> people to take notice. It is also not realistic that all rooms on
> the base get the Chloroform at the same time.
>
> Next, the reaction itself. Technically, Trichlormethane is made
> by reacting Methane (or Chloromethane) with Chlorine, and you get
> a mixture of all Chloromethanes, from CH3Cl to CCl4, and HCl.
> This is an equilibrium reaction, so there is always a mixture.
>
> It is impossible that a runaway reaction should have a higher
> selectivity, and not generate HCl in the process. The other
> Chloromethanes are more toxic, and also more corrosive, but the
> HCl alone would be enough to totally wreck the station.
>
> I like it when people do hard science, I just don't like it when
> they get it wrong at a level that a quick read of Wikipedia
> shows to be impossible.

I thought the grand finale was over the top also. I would have
suspected many people to die with the chloroform due to pockets in the
domes. And of course people with medical conditions would be affected
unequally.

The domes would need constant air refreshing due to the CO2 toxicity.
The air refreshing could be much more than 4 to 6 times per hour.

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tipvas$tao$4@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: dav...@qimr.edu.au (David Duffy)
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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 22:56:30 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: David Duffy - Wed, 19 Oct 2022 22:56 UTC

Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
> I have a few more problems with the books, specifically with the
> grand finale.
>
> Spoilers follow.
> ^L
> The heroine causes a runaway reaction which emits lots of chloroform
> (aka trichloromethane). This puts everybody in the colony to
> sleep all at once, leaving her to save the day, and the colony.
> Afterwards, people are a bit miffed, but there are no long-term
> ill effects.
>
> I have the following problems with that:
>
> Chloroform dosage is tricky. To quote the Gestis database,
> https://gestis.dguv.de/data?name=012870&lang=en :
>
> So there is a very slim window between losing conciousness fast
> and lethal effects (1.4 to 1.6 vol-% is not a lot).
>

Maybe Weir should have followed James Blish in _Dr Mirabilis_ and
use diethyl ether instead - it is less toxic than chloroform. Unfortunately,
it would be a slight fire risk.

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: peterwez...@hotmail.com (peterwezeman@hotmail.com)
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 by: peterwezeman@hotmail - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 03:31 UTC

On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> > > https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> > >
> > > A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> > > I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> > > Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> > > will be a sequel some day.
> > >
> > > If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> > > thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> > > atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> > > with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> > > Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> > > colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> > > his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> > >
> > > https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> > >
> > > Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> > > she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> > > and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> > > but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> > > she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> > > extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> > > them.
> > >
> > > The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> > > not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> > > it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> > > the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> > >
> > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> > >
> > > Lynn
> > From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> > any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> > are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> > not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> > to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> > at sub-atmospheric pressures."
> >
> > "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> > would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> > tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> > the Soviets would have tried."
> >
> > So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> > atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> > extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> > resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> > Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> > hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> > each.
> >
> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
>
> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
>
> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
>
> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
>
Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.

Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<tis3q8$ct2g$3@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 13:25:09 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:25 UTC

On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>>>
>>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
>>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
>>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
>>>> will be a sequel some day.
>>>>
>>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
>>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
>>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
>>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
>>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
>>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>>>>
>>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
>>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
>>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
>>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
>>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
>>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
>>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
>>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
>>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
>>>>
>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
>>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
>>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
>>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
>>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
>>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>>>
>>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
>>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
>>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
>>> the Soviets would have tried."
>>>
>>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
>>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
>>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
>>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
>>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
>>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
>>> each.
>>>
>> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
>> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
>>
>> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
>>
>> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
>> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
>> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
>> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
>> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
>> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
>> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
>> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
>> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
>> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
>> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
>> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
>> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
>>
>> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
>> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
>> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
>> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
>> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
>> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
>> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
>> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
>> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
>> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>>
>> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
>> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
>> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
>> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
>> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
>> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
>> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
>> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
>> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
>> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
>> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
>> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
>> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
>> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
>>
> Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
> Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
> of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
> payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
> stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
> a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
>
> Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
> nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
> on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice.
>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist

It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
available on the moon, would not be a good choice.

And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
walk with pure O2.

Thanks,
Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<51ba7d4d-0e72-42f9-b568-8c4401a2fbf5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:45 UTC

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:25:16 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> >>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> >>>>
> >>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> >>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> >>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> >>>> will be a sequel some day.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> >>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> >>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> >>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> >>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> >>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> >>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> >>>>
> >>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> >>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> >>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> >>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> >>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> >>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> >>>> them.
> >>>>
> >>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> >>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> >>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> >>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> >>>>
> >>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> >>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> >>>>
> >>>> Lynn
> >>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> >>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> >>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> >>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> >>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> >>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
> >>>
> >>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> >>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> >>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> >>> the Soviets would have tried."
> >>>
> >>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> >>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> >>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> >>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> >>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> >>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> >>> each.
> >>>
> >> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
> >> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
> >>
> >> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
> >>
> >> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
> >> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
> >> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
> >> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
> >> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
> >> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
> >> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
> >> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
> >> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
> >> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
> >> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
> >> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
> >> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
> >>
> >> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
> >> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
> >> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
> >> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
> >> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
> >> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
> >> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
> >> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
> >> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
> >> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
> >>
> >> From Wikipedia:
> >>
> >> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
> >> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
> >> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
> >> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
> >> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
> >> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
> >> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
> >> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
> >> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
> >> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
> >> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
> >> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
> >> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
> >> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> >> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> >> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
> >>
> > Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
> > Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
> > of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
> > payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
> > stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
> > a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
> >
> > Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
> > nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
> > on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice.
> >
> > Peter Wezeman
> > anti-social Darwinist
> It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
> available on the moon, would not be a good choice.
>
> And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
> walk with pure O2.

I'll just throw in that breathing 100% oxygen at sea level pressures will
cause serious medical problems after 12 hours or so, and can be deadly
in a day or two.

pt

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

<LHg4L.326889$elEa.8171@fx09.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:46 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>>>>
>>>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
>>>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
>>>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
>>>>> will be a sequel some day.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
>>>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>>>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
>>>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
>>>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
>>>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
>>>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>>>>>
>>>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
>>>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
>>>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
>>>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
>>>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
>>>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
>>>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
>>>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
>>>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
>>>>>
>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
>>>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
>>>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
>>>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
>>>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
>>>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>>>>
>>>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
>>>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
>>>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
>>>> the Soviets would have tried."
>>>>
>>>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
>>>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
>>>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
>>>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
>>>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
>>>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
>>>> each.
>>>>
>>> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
>>> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
>>>
>>> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
>>>
>>> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
>>> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
>>> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
>>> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
>>> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
>>> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
>>> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
>>> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
>>> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
>>> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
>>> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
>>> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
>>> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
>>>
>>> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
>>> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
>>> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
>>> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
>>> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
>>> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
>>> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
>>> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
>>> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
>>> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
>>>
>>> From Wikipedia:
>>>
>>> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
>>> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
>>> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
>>> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
>>> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
>>> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
>>> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
>>> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
>>> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
>>> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
>>> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
>>> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
>>> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
>>> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>>> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>>> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
>>>
>> Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
>> Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
>> of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
>> payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
>> stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
>> a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
>>
>> Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
>> nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
>> on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice.
>>
>> Peter Wezeman
>> anti-social Darwinist
>
>It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
>available on the moon, would not be a good choice.
>
>And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
>walk with pure O2.
>
>Thanks,
>Lynn
>

"All the noble gases and nitrogen have been found in
samples of lunar soil returned to Earth by the Apollo
astronauts, apparent evidence of solar wind implantation."

"However, the levels of these elements are low (100-150 ppm),
and thus their recovery may prove to be uneconomical. In that
case, they would have to be transported from Earth until the CELSS matured."

https://space.nss.org/settlement/nasa/spaceresvol4/lifesupport.html

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 14:32:11 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:32 UTC

On 10/20/2022 1:45 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:25:16 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
>>>>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
>>>>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
>>>>>> will be a sequel some day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
>>>>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
>>>>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
>>>>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
>>>>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
>>>>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
>>>>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
>>>>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
>>>>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
>>>>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
>>>>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
>>>>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
>>>>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
>>>>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
>>>>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
>>>>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
>>>>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
>>>>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
>>>>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
>>>>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
>>>>>
>>>>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
>>>>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
>>>>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
>>>>> the Soviets would have tried."
>>>>>
>>>>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
>>>>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
>>>>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
>>>>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
>>>>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
>>>>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
>>>>> each.
>>>>>
>>>> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
>>>> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
>>>>
>>>> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
>>>>
>>>> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
>>>> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
>>>> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
>>>> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
>>>> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
>>>> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
>>>> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
>>>> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
>>>> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
>>>> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
>>>> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
>>>> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
>>>> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
>>>>
>>>> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
>>>> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers.
>>>> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
>>>> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
>>>> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
>>>> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
>>>> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
>>>> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
>>>> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
>>>> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
>>>>
>>>> From Wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
>>>> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
>>>> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
>>>> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
>>>> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
>>>> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
>>>> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
>>>> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
>>>> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
>>>> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
>>>> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
>>>> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
>>>> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
>>>> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>>>> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
>>>> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
>>>>
>>> Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
>>> Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
>>> of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
>>> payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
>>> stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
>>> a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
>>>
>>> Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
>>> nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
>>> on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice.
>>>
>>> Peter Wezeman
>>> anti-social Darwinist
>> It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
>> available on the moon, would not be a good choice.
>>
>> And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
>> walk with pure O2.
>
> I'll just throw in that breathing 100% oxygen at sea level pressures will
> cause serious medical problems after 12 hours or so, and can be deadly
> in a day or two.
>
> pt


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Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: peterwez...@hotmail.com (peterwezeman@hotmail.com)
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 by: peterwezeman@hotmail - Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:55 UTC

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:25:16 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail..com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> > >>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> > >>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> > >>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> > >>>> will be a sequel some day.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> > >>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> > >>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> > >>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> > >>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> > >>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> > >>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> > >>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> > >>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> > >>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> > >>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> > >>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> > >>>> them.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> > >>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> > >>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> > >>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> > >>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Lynn
> > >>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> > >>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> > >>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> > >>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> > >>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> > >>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
> > >>>
> > >>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> > >>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> > >>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> > >>> the Soviets would have tried."
> > >>>
> > >>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> > >>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> > >>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> > >>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> > >>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> > >>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> > >>> each.
> > >>>
> > >> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
> > >> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
> > >>
> > >> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
> > >>
> > >> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
> > >> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
> > >> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
> > >> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
> > >> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
> > >> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
> > >> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
> > >> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
> > >> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
> > >> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
> > >> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
> > >> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
> > >> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
> > >>
> > >> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
> > >> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers..
> > >> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
> > >> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
> > >> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
> > >> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
> > >> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
> > >> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
> > >> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
> > >> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
> > >>
> > >> From Wikipedia:
> > >>
> > >> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
> > >> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
> > >> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
> > >> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
> > >> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
> > >> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
> > >> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
> > >> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
> > >> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
> > >> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
> > >> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
> > >> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
> > >> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
> > >> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> > >> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> > >> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
> > >>
> > > Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
> > > Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
> > > of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
> > > payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
> > > stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
> > > a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
> > >
> > > Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
> > > nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
> > > on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice..
> > >
> > > Peter Wezeman
> > > anti-social Darwinist
> > It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
> > available on the moon, would not be a good choice.
> >
> > And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
> > walk with pure O2.
> I'll just throw in that breathing 100% oxygen at sea level pressures will
> cause serious medical problems after 12 hours or so, and can be deadly
> in a day or two.
>
Looking at Mayo Clinic and other on line information on hyperbaric oxygen
therapy I see that sessions are limited to no more than three atmospheres
oxygen pressure for no more than two hours duration. Under these conditions
oxygen toxicity is a rare complication, one in 2,000 to 3,000 treatments.


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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 00:19 UTC

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/20/2022 1:45 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:25:16 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 10/19/2022 10:31 PM, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 1:03:04 AM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail..com wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:08:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>> On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>>>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> >>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> >>>>>> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> >>>>>> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon. Hopefully there
> >>>>>> will be a sequel some day.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here. The only
> >>>>>> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> >>>>>> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis. I have a problem
> >>>>>> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> >>>>>> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> >>>>>> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> >>>>>> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> >>>>>> she was six years old, the legal minimum age. She grew up in Artemis
> >>>>>> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted. She has a good heart
> >>>>>> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished. So
> >>>>>> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> >>>>>> extra cash. And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> >>>>>> them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it. I do
> >>>>>> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon. And
> >>>>>> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> >>>>>> the Moon. Once, a colony is established.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> >>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lynn
> >>>>> From a friend of mine: "Nitrogen is in short supply on the moon, and
> >>>>> any recovered through mining would be reserved for growing plants. There
> >>>>> are three nitrogen-free gas mixtures used for deep sea diving that do
> >>>>> not contain nitrogen, but rely on helium, helium/hydrogen, or hydrogen
> >>>>> to dilute the oxygen. I’,m not sure if any research has been done on use
> >>>>> at sub-atmospheric pressures."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Helium and hydrogen have booth been found in lunar soils, but helium
> >>>>> would be a poor candidate due to it’s ability to exfiltrate through the
> >>>>> tiniest hole and through many materials. Hydrogen sounds like something
> >>>>> the Soviets would have tried."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, 5 psia of pure O2 for a lunar colony is reasonable as a general
> >>>>> atmosphere. I would have never thought so. The author does talk
> >>>>> extensively about limiting usage of fire causing materials and many fire
> >>>>> resistant / air blowout cubbyholes throughout the five domes.
> >>>>> Incidentally, the lunar domes are half buried aluminum spheres many
> >>>>> hundreds of meters in diameter with a double wall of six cm of aluminum
> >>>>> each.
> >>>>>
> >>>> According to this NASA history, the Apollo spacecraft used a 5 psi oxygen
> >>>> atmosphere in flight, so there is a good deal of practical experience with it:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/toc.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Quoting from an article from the National Air and Space Museum website,
> >>>> written by senior curator Michael Neufeld, about the Gemini VI mission,
> >>>> "To save weight, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft were designed to
> >>>> operate at a cabin pressure of 5.5 lbs. per square inch of pure oxygen in space."
> >>>> Any of these spacecraft would ascend through the perceptible atmosphere in
> >>>> minutes, so the cabin pressure was rapidly bled down to maintain a 5 psi
> >>>> pressure differential between inside and outside. If the crew were breathing
> >>>> normal air at launch the drop in pressure could have caused decompression
> >>>> sickness (commonly called the bends) as nitrogen gas came out of solution
> >>>> in their blood and tissues. To prevent this, throughout the Mercury and Gemini
> >>>> programs, at launch the cabin atmosphere was 100 percent oxygen, and the
> >>>> crew were breathing pure oxygen long enough (several hours) to purge all
> >>>> dissolved nitrogen from their bodies.
> >>>>
> >>>> After the Apollo One fire which killed three astronauts during a training
> >>>> exercise this procedure was modified in a compromise between dangers..
> >>>> Preflight atmosphere was changed to 60 percent oxygen and forty percent
> >>>> nitrogen. The astronauts would breath 100 percent oxygen in their space
> >>>> suits, sealed off from the cabin atmosphere, and would not remove their
> >>>> helmets until cabin pressure was down to 5 psi. 60 percent oxygen was
> >>>> much less of a fire risk than 100 percent oxygen, and was the lowest
> >>>> percentage that would ensure that the cabin atmosphere would always
> >>>> have a partial pressure of oxygen high enough to support human
> >>>> consciousness. Astronauts would purge nitrogen as before.
> >>>>
> >>>> From Wikipedia:
> >>>>
> >>>> "The cabin atmosphere at launch was adjusted to 60% oxygen and
> >>>> 40% nitrogen at sea-level pressure: 14.7 psi (101 kPa). During ascent
> >>>> the cabin rapidly vented down to 5 psi (34 kPa), releasing approximately
> >>>> 2/3 of the gas originally present at launch. The vent then closed and the
> >>>> environmental control system maintained a nominal cabin pressure of
> >>>> 5 psi (34 kPa) as the spacecraft continued into vacuum. The cabin was
> >>>> then very slowly purged (vented to space and simultaneously replaced
> >>>> with 100% oxygen), so the nitrogen concentration gradually fell off to zero
> >>>> over the next day. Although the new cabin launch atmosphere was
> >>>> significantly safer than 100% oxygen, it still contained almost three times
> >>>> the amount of oxygen present in ordinary sea level air (20.9% oxygen).
> >>>> This was necessary to ensure a sufficient partial pressure of oxygen
> >>>> when the astronauts removed their helmets after reaching orbit.
> >>>> (60% of five psi is three psi, compared to 60% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> >>>> which is 8.8 psi (61 kPa) at launch, and 20.9% of 14.7 psi (101 kPa)
> >>>> which is 3.07 psi (21.2 kPa) in sea-level air.)[64]
> >>>>
> >>> Skylab was the first American space station, launched in 1973 using a
> >>> Saturn 5 rocket left over from the Apollo program. The first two stages
> >>> of the Saturn 5 could achieve low Earth orbit with a sufficiently small
> >>> payload. In this case the payload was the essentially empty Saturn third
> >>> stage with a pressurized crew compartment built into the hydrogen tank,
> >>> a large solar cell array, a solar observatory, and other equipment.
> >>>
> >>> Skylab was pressurized to 5 psi with 70 percent oxygen and 30 percent
> >>> nitrogen, for an oxygen partial pressure of 3.5 psi, similar to sea level
> >>> on Earth. I have not heard of any problems resulting from this choice..
> >>>
> >>> Peter Wezeman
> >>> anti-social Darwinist
> >> It does seem to me that would be safer but, if there is ZERO nitrogen
> >> available on the moon, would not be a good choice.
> >>
> >> And I still like that they do not have to prebreathe to go on a space
> >> walk with pure O2.
> >
> > I'll just throw in that breathing 100% oxygen at sea level pressures will
> > cause serious medical problems after 12 hours or so, and can be deadly
> > in a day or two.
> >
> > pt
> What about breathing almost pure oxygen at 5 psia for years on end ? I
> am sure that there is a little CO2 in there, maybe 500 to 1,000 ppm.
> And a few other trace gases at 1 to 10 ppm.


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Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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From: defaultu...@yahoo.com (Default User)
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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:33:52 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Default User - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:33 UTC

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>"Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>
>A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know
>of.

This was one of the first e-books I got from the library. I was just
searching the catalog and this seemed like one I would like. I didn't
know who Weir was at the time, so I pretty surprised when there was a
large wait list on a lot of copies.

Brian

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:36:12 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:36 UTC

On 10/20/2022 10:33 PM, Default User wrote:
> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>> https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>>
>> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know
>> of.
>
> This was one of the first e-books I got from the library. I was just
> searching the catalog and this seemed like one I would like. I didn't
> know who Weir was at the time, so I pretty surprised when there was a
> large wait list on a lot of copies.
>
>
> Brian

Did you like it ?

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:43:21 -0500
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:43 UTC

On 10/18/2022 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
>    https://www.amazon.com/Artemis-Novel-Andy-Weir/dp/0553448145/
>
> A standalone science fiction book, no sequel or prequel that I know of.
> I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by
> Ballantine Books in 2018 that I bought new on Amazon.  Hopefully there
> will be a sequel some day.
>
> If you are looking for a hard science book, your book is here.  The only
> thing that I had a problem with is the low pressure 100% pure oxygen
> atmosphere of the 2,000 person lunar colony, Artemis.  I have a problem
> with that but getting it to work might be doable, I just don't know.
> Andy Weir actually wrote an article about the economics of a lunar
> colony: "'The Martian' author Andy Weir solved moon economics to make
> his new book 'Artemis' believable"
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-weir-artemis-moon-city-economics-the-martian-2017-11
>
> Jasmine Bashara moved to Artemis with her father from Saudi Arabia when
> she was six years old, the legal minimum age.  She grew up in Artemis
> and is constantly on the edge of being evicted.  She has a good heart
> but is always looking for the easy way to get things accomplished.  So
> she lives on the shady side of Artemis and smuggles things in to make
> extra cash.  And her customers know that she can get almost anything for
> them.
>
> The book is solid, I stayed up until 4 am last night reading it.  I do
> not understand why so many people do not like the book on Amazon.  And
> it makes me more than ever want to take a two week or four week trip to
> the Moon.  Once, a colony is established.
>
> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (13,729 reviews)
>
> Lynn

BTW, I forgot to mention that "Artemis" is set in the 2080s. Far enough
out to have weekly moon shuttles and not too far to be unrealistic.

Lynn

Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir

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Subject: Re: "Artemis: A Novel" by Andy Weir
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 06:48:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Default User - Sun, 23 Oct 2022 06:48 UTC

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>On 10/20/2022 10:33 PM, Default User wrote:

>>This was one of the first e-books I got from the library. I was just
>>searching the catalog and this seemed like one I would like. I
>>didn't know who Weir was at the time, so I pretty surprised when
>>there was a large wait list on a lot of copies.

>Did you like it ?

On the whole, I thought it was pretty good. I read it near the end of
2017, so my recollection of it has faded some.

Brian

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