Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
"Doc" Smith

A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
more organized and much larger than mere pirates.

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> "Doc" Smith
>
> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with. You might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts. For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there was in Thionite.

In article <51ffd232-bd9f-4155-8c0d-f1a72c7d236an@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
>> "Doc" Smith
>>
>> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
>> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
>> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against
>drugs in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol
>regulations that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with. You
>might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press
>even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at
>https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm
>of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for
>the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts.
>For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the
>same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions
>that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there
>was in Thionite.

Given the Opium War, it seems to me a well-established point of
international law that gaining access to large markets through
the use of innovative pharmacutical marketing is perfectly
legitimate.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 3:26:05 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <51ffd232-bd9f-4155...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> >> "Doc" Smith
> >>
> >> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> >> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> >> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> >> --
> >> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> >> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> >> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> >> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> >It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against
> >drugs in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol
> >regulations that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with. You
> >might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press
> >even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at
> >https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm
> >of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for
> >the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts.
> >For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the
> >same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions
> >that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there
> >was in Thionite.
> Given the Opium War, it seems to me a well-established point of
> international law that gaining access to large markets through
> the use of innovative pharmacutical marketing is perfectly
> legitimate.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
This interpretation of international law is not accepted, at least officially, by the government of China, which has passed laws which should have greatly reduced the production of fentanyl, while its import into the US has at most taken a slightly more circuitous route - https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/Illicit_Fentanyl_from_China-An_Evolving_Global_Operation.pdf

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 7:20:35 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.

Thionite is _not_ so quickly and inevitably fatal that it's impossible
to make money pushing the stuff.

There is a scene in one of those books, quite possibly Galactic
Patrol itself, where a Lensman seeking to infiltrate the criminals
is administered a dose and feels its "high", described as somewhat
like that from cocaine. He passes the test by not taking a _second_
dose to continue his high, which is placed accessible to him,
and which _would_ have been fatal.

So all the pushers have to do is carefully regulate what they sell to
their clients, since most people don't have the resistance to drugs
of a Lensman.

John Savard

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> "Doc" Smith

_Galactic Patrol_ was the first novel in the core Lensman series.
_Triplanetary_ and _First Lensman_ were prequels put together
after the main series had been completed. I always recommend that
new readers start with _Galactic Patrol_.

> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
[snip]
> Perhaps the issue was that the book, and the series, were dated.
> It’s a long long time between 1950 and 1973.

It was top of the line stuff when it was serialized in 1937-1938.
Then the Golden Age started a year later and the field was very
different by 1950.

In article <tj3f2v$3qd$1@reader2.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> "Doc" Smith
>
> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono

Actually, it is first in the Lensman series if you don't count
_Triplanetary_ and _First Lensman_ (which were an older story rewritten
to fit into the continuity and a prequel, respectively).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 4:25:28 PM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 7:20:35 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>
> > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> Thionite is _not_ so quickly and inevitably fatal that it's impossible
> to make money pushing the stuff.
>
> There is a scene in one of those books, quite possibly Galactic
> Patrol itself, where a Lensman seeking to infiltrate the criminals
> is administered a dose and feels its "high", described as somewhat
> like that from cocaine. He passes the test by not taking a _second_
> dose to continue his high, which is placed accessible to him,
> and which _would_ have been fatal.
>
> So all the pushers have to do is carefully regulate what they sell to
> their clients, since most people don't have the resistance to drugs
> of a Lensman.
>
> John Savard
While I am not sure that any single pusher could regulate the consumption of their clients (who might have multiple sources) your strategy for surviving Thionite is roughly consistent with that described in "First Lensman" where Virgil Samms (undercover) takes a single dose and rejects a second (from memory, Thionite is the one drug that Kinnision stays clear of, even undercover, as he worries it might be the only drug to get past his Arisian training). From First Lensman

There was another good jolt lying right there on the desk in front of him, even though thionite-sniffers always saw to it that no more of the drug could be obtained without considerable physical exertion; which exertion would bring them to their senses. If he took that jolt it would kill him....

(End quote)

The typical career of the thionite-sniffer is described in Grey Lensman:

This is the technique of the thionite-sniffer - to take every microgram that he can stand, to come to, shaken and too weak even to walk; to swear that he will never so degrade himself again; to come back after more as soon as he has recovered the strength to do so; and finally, with an irresistable craving for stronger and even stronger thrills, to take a larger dose than his rapidly-weakening body can endure and so to cross the fatal line

(End quote)
Again, in real life people do continue to take substances that they know will kill them. N.Ireland is not a province with a history of dealing well with alcohol. There is a family story that my great grandfather was told by his doctor that if he continued to drink it would kill him. It is a good story not because he survived (he did not) but because he had the satisfaction of seeing his doctor pre-decease him, of the same ailment.

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 5:29:43 PM UTC+1, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> > "Doc" Smith
> _Galactic Patrol_ was the first novel in the core Lensman series.
> _Triplanetary_ and _First Lensman_ were prequels put together
> after the main series had been completed. I always recommend that
> new readers start with _Galactic Patrol_.
> > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> [snip]
> > Perhaps the issue was that the book, and the series, were dated.
> > It’s a long long time between 1950 and 1973.
>
> It was top of the line stuff when it was serialized in 1937-1938.
> Then the Golden Age started a year later and the field was very
> different by 1950.
I see the early history of SF as a gradual shading between stories in which science (not necessarily correct) and world-building were dominant to the exclusion of everything else and stories which, shorn of their scientific and innovative ideas, would still pass muster on their merits as entertaining (if not necessarily literary) fiction. I see the Lens stories in an intermediate position between, for example, "A Martian Odyssey" and Iain M Banks's Culture series.

I also note that this is not just a progression in which SF writers learned to write properly: E E Smith furnished the Lensman series with a large number of ideas which later writers could copy but could not be the first discoverers of. With fewer ideas to be discovered for the first time, a writer good at science and innovation would have a harder time competing with a writer good at traditional storytelling skills.

Under this interpretation, the Lensman series is not in direct competition with the vast bulk of modern Science Fiction; if you are to claim that it is no longer top of the line, your example of top of the line must be another triumph of the imagination (Dune comes to mind) and not a modern Hugo winner (I suspect that the latest one I have read is N.K.Jemisin's "The Fifth Season"

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 9:22:30 AM UTC-5, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> > "Doc" Smith
> >
> > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> > --
> > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with. You might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts.

Risk might not deter addicts once addicted, but it most likely does reduce initial incidence of addiction, esp. if joined by strong social disapproval..

>For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there was in Thionite.

So? Comparing road deaths and drug abuse deaths is apples and oranges, or maybe even apples and bacon.

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-5, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 5:29:43 PM UTC+1, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> > > "Doc" Smith
> > _Galactic Patrol_ was the first novel in the core Lensman series.
> > _Triplanetary_ and _First Lensman_ were prequels put together
> > after the main series had been completed. I always recommend that
> > new readers start with _Galactic Patrol_.
> > > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> > >
> > > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> > [snip]
> > > Perhaps the issue was that the book, and the series, were dated.
> > > It’s a long long time between 1950 and 1973.
> >
> > It was top of the line stuff when it was serialized in 1937-1938.
> > Then the Golden Age started a year later and the field was very
> > different by 1950.
> I see the early history of SF as a gradual shading between stories in which science (not necessarily correct) and world-building were dominant to the exclusion of everything else and stories which, shorn of their scientific and innovative ideas, would still pass muster on their merits as entertaining (if not necessarily literary) fiction. I see the Lens stories in an intermediate position between, for example, "A Martian Odyssey" and Iain M Banks's Culture series.
>
> I also note that this is not just a progression in which SF writers learned to write properly: E E Smith furnished the Lensman series with a large number of ideas which later writers could copy but could not be the first discoverers of. With fewer ideas to be discovered for the first time, a writer good at science and innovation would have a harder time competing with a writer good at traditional storytelling skills.
>
> Under this interpretation, the Lensman series is not in direct competition with the vast bulk of modern Science Fiction; if you are to claim that it is no longer top of the line, your example of top of the line must be another triumph of the imagination (Dune comes to mind) and not a modern Hugo winner (I suspect that the latest one I have read is N.K.Jemisin's "The Fifth Season"

Smith remains among the very best at portraying genuinely _alien_ aliens, esp. in terms of their minds and psychology, including in comparison to today's writers.

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 6:42:00 PM UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 9:22:30 AM UTC-5, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> > > "Doc" Smith
> > >
> > > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> > >
> > > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> > > --
> > > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> > It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with. You might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts.
> Risk might not deter addicts once addicted, but it most likely does reduce initial incidence of addiction, esp. if joined by strong social disapproval.
> >For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there was in Thionite.
> So? Comparing road deaths and drug abuse deaths is apples and oranges, or maybe even apples and bacon.
I picked road deaths because it is a known potentially lethal risk that we accept as a society (because of the huge benefits from commuting and travel) and also because I have been made very aware that people get killed and seriously injured in road accidents.

On 23/10/2022 12.05, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 4:25:28 PM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 7:20:35 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
>>> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
>>> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>> Thionite is _not_ so quickly and inevitably fatal that it's impossible
>> to make money pushing the stuff.

True.

>> There is a scene in one of those books, quite possibly Galactic
>> Patrol itself, where a Lensman seeking to infiltrate the criminals
>> is administered a dose and feels its "high", described as somewhat
>> like that from cocaine. He passes the test by not taking a _second_
>> dose to continue his high, which is placed accessible to him,
>> and which _would_ have been fatal.

> While I am not sure that any single pusher could regulate the consumption of their clients (who might have multiple sources) your strategy for surviving Thionite is roughly consistent with that described in "First Lensman" where Virgil Samms (undercover) takes a single dose and rejects a second (from memory,

You are correct. That happened to Samms in _First Lensman_, not to
any Kinnison in any book.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

On Sunday, 23 October 2022 at 15:22:30 UTC+1, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
> > "Doc" Smith
> >
> > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
> > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
> > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
> >
> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
> > --
> > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
> > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
> It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs
> in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations
> that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with.

He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
disputed that (as I think more than one of
P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
alcohol is a food. Also, _The Skylark of Space_
was written in an interval of time 1915-1921
which includes alcohol "Prohibition", as well
as U.S. Involvement in the First World War.
I'll take a guess that the view of narcotics in
_Galactic Patrol_ corresponds with contemporary
opinion and/or editorial policy.

>You might think that the toxicity of Thionite would give it a press even worse than "Speed kills!" but the report at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm of just over 100,000 total drug overdoes deaths in the USA for the 2021 reporting year suggest that risk does not deter addicts. For comparison - road traffic deaths of just under 43,000 in the same reporting year. For that matter, there are also suggestions that there is a nation-state element in Fentanyl, just as there was in Thionite.

Quality control and harm reduction are relevant
factors. There's a lot of harm reduction in current
road traffic engineering, for the, um, traffickers
at least. Or many more still would be getting killed.

In article <e9fa14d7-deb6-4588-b3aa-44023137c760n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 7:20:35 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
>> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
>> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>
>Thionite is _not_ so quickly and inevitably fatal that it's impossible
>to make money pushing the stuff.
>
>There is a scene in one of those books, quite possibly Galactic
>Patrol itself, where a Lensman seeking to infiltrate the criminals
>is administered a dose and feels its "high", described as somewhat
>like that from cocaine. He passes the test by not taking a _second_
>dose to continue his high, which is placed accessible to him,
>and which _would_ have been fatal.
>
>So all the pushers have to do is carefully regulate what they sell to
>their clients, since most people don't have the resistance to drugs
>of a Lensman.

(Hal Heydt)
That was--IIRC--Virgil Samms in _First Lensman_. All things
considered, it may not have been Samms
own--considerable--willpower that prevented him from taking the
second dose, but a bit of an Arisian nudge in the right
direction.

On 10/23/2022 1:40 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 23 October 2022 at 15:22:30 UTC+1, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
>>> "Doc" Smith
>>>
>>> A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
>>> what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
>>> more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
>>> --
>>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>>> My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>>> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>>> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs
>> in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations
>> that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with.
>
> He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
> disputed that (as I think more than one of
> P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
> alcohol is a food.

Last I knew alcohol was classified as "a metabolic poison".

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 4:11:24 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/23/2022 1:40 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> > He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
> > disputed that (as I think more than one of
> > P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
> > alcohol is a food.

> Last I knew alcohol was classified as "a metabolic poison".

That may be, but when metabolized, alcohol produces
sugars in the body. Therefore, it does have calories,
and must be considered as a food - if among other things.

John Savard

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> Again, in real life people do continue to take substances that they
> know will kill them. N.Ireland is not a province with a history of dealing
> well with alcohol. There is a family story that my great grandfather was
> told by his doctor that if he continued to drink it would kill him. It is
> a good story not because he survived (he did not) but because he had the
> satisfaction of seeing his doctor pre-decease him, of the same ailment.

The traditional definition of an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than
his doctor.

Turning back to Smith, I have been reading a few more of those Chinese
Xuanxia web novels - currently at chapter 3373 of 6004 of _Martial Peak_.
These have many of the charms and failings of the Lensman series, and I
wonder if these properties have arisen after exposure to Western pulps
or comics - I don't think Smith had read the _Journey to the West_. One
particular feature is how often the hero sequentially rises to the top of
his world before realizing that it is contained or connected to another
vaster world; individuals from those higher worlds are godlike if they
bother to intervene in the protagonist's affairs.

Cheers, David Duffy.

In article <0458583c-d09e-4a82-b46c-7e89e8db11f8n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, 23 October 2022 at 15:22:30 UTC+1, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 2:20:35 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> > Galactic Patrol (Lensman, volume 3/Lensman, volume 2) by E. E.
>> > "Doc" Smith
>> >
>> > A stalwart Galactic Patrol officer and his fellow Lensmen discover
>> > what they thought was a cabal of pirates is in fact a force far
>> > more organized and much larger than mere pirates.
>> >
>> > https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/holy-klono
>> > --
>> > My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> > My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>> > My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>> > My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
>> It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs
>> in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations
>> that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with.
>
>He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
>disputed that (as I think more than one of
>P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
>alcohol is a food. Also, _The Skylark of Space_
>was written in an interval of time 1915-1921
>which includes alcohol "Prohibition", as well
>as U.S. Involvement in the First World War.
>I'll take a guess that the view of narcotics in
>_Galactic Patrol_ corresponds with contemporary
>opinion and/or editorial policy.

(Hal Heydt)
Indeed. He held a patent on a method of getting powdered sugar
to stick to doughnuts.

Anther point to keep in mind is that he wrote _The Skylark of
Space_ *before* the US was in World War I, though it wasn't
published until 1921.

On 23/10/2022 20.31, Hal Heydt wrote:
> In article <0458583c-d09e-4a82-b46c-7e89e8db11f8n@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, 23 October 2022 at 15:22:30 UTC+1, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:

>>> It would be interesting to see a comparison of the war against drugs
>>> in Galactic Patrol with the narcotics and even anti-alcohol regulations
>>> that E.E.Smith would have been familiar with.
>>
>> He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
>> disputed that (as I think more than one of
>> P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
>> alcohol is a food. Also, _The Skylark of Space_
>> was written in an interval of time 1915-1921
>> which includes alcohol "Prohibition", as well
>> as U.S. Involvement in the First World War.
>> I'll take a guess that the view of narcotics in
>> _Galactic Patrol_ corresponds with contemporary
>> opinion and/or editorial policy.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> Indeed. He held a patent on a method of getting powdered sugar
> to stick to doughnuts.
>
> Anther point to keep in mind is that he wrote _The Skylark of
> Space_ *before* the US was in World War I,

He *started* on it before US entry into WWI, but didn't finish
it until 1920.

> though it wasn't
> published until 1921.

For values of 1921 that are equal to 1928:
<https://isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?1193>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

On Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:53:45 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 4:11:24 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 10/23/2022 1:40 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> > He worked on food chemistry. It seems to be
>> > disputed that (as I think more than one of
>> > P. G. Wodehouse's characters had read)
>> > alcohol is a food.
>
>> Last I knew alcohol was classified as "a metabolic poison".
>
>That may be, but when metabolized, alcohol produces
>sugars in the body. Therefore, it does have calories,
>and must be considered as a food - if among other things.

And when I put "metabolic poison" into Bing, I get articles on ...
sugar.

This is looking more and more like food fanaticism.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 1:24:55 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 5:29:43 PM UTC+1, Ahasuerus wrote:
[snip-snip]
> > It was top of the line stuff when it was serialized in 1937-1938.
> > Then the Golden Age started a year later and the field was very
> > different by 1950.
> I see the early history of SF as a gradual shading between stories
> in which science (not necessarily correct) and world-building were
> dominant to the exclusion of everything else and stories which,
> shorn of their scientific and innovative ideas, would still pass
> muster on their merits as entertaining (if not necessarily literary)
> fiction. I see the Lens stories in an intermediate position between,
> for example, "A Martian Odyssey" and Iain M Banks's Culture series.
[snip]

There has been a great deal of variety over the decades. Edgar Rice
Burroughs, who was hugely popular long before the Golden Age,
emphasized the adventure aspect of SF. H. G. Wells, who started
publishing SF even earlier, emphasized the social aspect. Jules
Verne, whose SF works are even older than Wells's, concentrated
on the science aspect.

The Golden Age of SF, which started in 1939 and ended in 1950 (or
1946 or even 1942, as some people argue) and was limited to
magazine SF, is different from other periods because it was clearly
much better -- across the board -- than the era that immediately
preceded it.

It would be hard to argue that the New Wave was clearly better or
clearly worse than the Golden Age because it tried to move in a
different direction. On the other hand, what Golden Age authors
did during the 1940s was in the same vein as what earlier SF
magazines had done, but they did it much better: better writing,
better characterization, better plots, better science, etc. Doc Smith's
writing was as good or better than what other prominent pulp
authors produced during the 1930s, but his purple prose is not in
the same league as what Heinlein, Asimov, de Camp, Kuttner/Moore,
etc published during the Golden Age. It's still an impressive
accomplishment, of course.

P. S. H. P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith are the best known
exceptions to the "same vein" rule.

In article <rK8HJq.KHu@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <0458583c-d09e-4a82-b46c-7e89e8db11f8n@googlegroups.com>,
>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
E. E. "Doc" Smith
>>He worked on food chemistry.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Indeed. He held a patent on a method of getting powdered sugar
>to stick to doughnuts.

And is thus one of history's great benefactors.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

In article <e9fa14d7-deb6-4588-b3aa-44023137c760n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>There is a scene in one of those books, quite possibly Galactic
>Patrol itself, where a Lensman seeking to infiltrate the criminals
>is administered a dose and feels its "high", described as somewhat
>like that from cocaine.

More like an LSD trip, if an LSD trip reliably gave you detailed
hallucinations of your deepest desires coming true. I think Samms
hallucinated massive success for the Patrol, with himself at the
head, Doing Good for the entire galaxy. (But it's been quite a
few years.)

Along with the cocaine-like high, and the physical cravings from
just one dose.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

In article <a2f83255-1ad8-4c09-a1f7-ea7df0e0d551n@googlegroups.com>,
Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> wrote:
>Doc Smith's
>writing was as good or better than what other prominent pulp
>authors produced during the 1930s, but his purple prose is not in
>the same league as what Heinlein, Asimov, de Camp, Kuttner/Moore,
>etc published during the Golden Age. It's still an impressive
>accomplishment, of course.

Yes, Smith's "purple prose" often extended well into the ultraviolet,
if not soft X-rays. Still, I enjoyed "Lensman" a lot.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston