A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

Jerry Oltion The Getaway Special

You don't actually see any details of the submarine conversion. I think there was a second book in the series. The isfdb doesn't list it as part of a series, but I think Anywhere But Here is in the same series.

Greg

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> schrieb:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?

"What If" has a nice discussion about a submarine in space.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.

David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
-0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,

Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship can
survive reentry.

Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
designed to handle?

Same would go for "Space Suits".

> if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >
> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship can
> survive reentry.
>
> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
> Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
> designed to handle?
>
> Same would go for "Space Suits".
> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
> Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
> Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules can typically float. If it had any kind of airbag system, the bags could keep it afloat for a while even if it wasn't buoyant in itself. I was most interested in confirming crush depths for submarines. Apparently, this was something like 200-300 meters for vessels in the WW2 era, which would presumably be much sturdier than a spaceship but not at the limits of feasible design. That would have to be the Trieste, the purpose-built bathyscape they dropped to the bottom of the Marianas Trench in 1960. In shallow coastal waters and especially freshwater bodies, a submerged spacecraft should be fine.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? [snip]

Philip E. High's _The Time Mercenaries_ (1968,
https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?9827 ) is kind of like that. The
crew of a Royal Navy submarine is resurrected thousands of years in
the future and asked to help thoroughly pacifistic future humans
defeat implacable alien invaders.

On 11/18/2022 04:02 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>>
>> --
>> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
>> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
>> ã-----------------------------------------------------
>> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>
it's one atmosphere pressure every 10 meters down. Even if the compressive strength weren't
a lot lower than tensile strength for all those typical alloys you'd have a problem very quickly.

Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?

It would be interesting if one predates the June 1960 Astounding/Analog that had the science article (well, sciencish article) by Campbell, "The Space-Drive Problem" which mentioned using the Dean Drive to launch the USS Skate, which image got the cover.

--
-Jack

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 9:28:53 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >
> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship can
> survive reentry.
>
This scenario was used in Ray Harryhausen's 1957 movie _Twenty Million Miles to Earth_.
A manned expedition to Venus returned to Earth; their spacecraft, or the final stage of it,
made a gliding aerodynamic reentry using its delta wings. They ended up over the
Mediterranean Sea. It was not clear from the script just how much control they had
over their flight path; some space-science writers at the time implied that such a
vehicle would adjust its descent to keep the skin temperature within the safe limits
of the metal, possibly stainless steel or nickel alloy, both used in experimental rocket
planes, and the glide might cover thousands of miles. The big hole in the fuselage,
presumably from a meteor, didn't help. They managed to level off just over the water
and then pitched down, coming to a catastrophic stop and then floating nose down
about half submerged. It was not clear if the spacecraft was capable of landing
on water; some World War 2 aircraft could NOT be ditched safely and the best course
was to bail out. Local fishermen who happened to be nearby were able to enter
through the hole and rescue the two surviving crew. The spacecraft gradually flooded
and sank. This site has a good picture of the floating spacecraft:

https://www.grindhousedatabase.com/index.php/20_Million_Miles_To_Earth/Review

> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
> Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
> designed to handle?

What do you mean by "Lunar Return Module"? If you mean the module that returned from
the Moon, that would be the Command Module, which was designed to land in water and
did so successfully on every mission. It floated low in the water and had two small airbags
that deployed to keep it upright even in rough water. If you mean the Lunar Excursion Module,
the ascent stage by itself with propellent tanks empty would have floated as if it were made
of balsa wood. With both the ascent stage and the descent stage together with full tanks
I would have to make an estimate based on published information.

>
> Same would go for "Space Suits".
> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> --
The idea of wearing standard spacesuits underwater was used by Hal Clement in his 1965
short story _Raindrop_. The setting was an orbital farm made from cometary ice moved to
low Earth orbit, thawed out with mirrors, and enclosed in a transparent membrane. It was
used to grow genetically engineered edible algae. Because of the microgravity environment
buoyancy from the enclosed air volume of the suits was not a problem.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:58:57 AM UTC-7, Johann Klammer wrote:
> On 11/18/2022 04:02 PM, David Brown wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> >> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_..
> >> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >>
> >> --
> >> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> >> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> >> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> >> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> >
> it's one atmosphere pressure every 10 meters down. Even if the compressive strength weren't
> a lot lower than tensile strength for all those typical alloys you'd have a problem very quickly.
That could be fudged to 10-30 meters depth as a safety zone, so reasonable for near shore and freshwater environments. At that point the real question is if there's anything to lose by aiming for land.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:28:06 PM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 9:28:53 AM UTC-6, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
> > -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > >
> > >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
> > Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship can
> > survive reentry.
> >
> This scenario was used in Ray Harryhausen's 1957 movie _Twenty Million Miles to Earth_.
> A manned expedition to Venus returned to Earth; their spacecraft, or the final stage of it,
> made a gliding aerodynamic reentry using its delta wings. They ended up over the
> Mediterranean Sea. It was not clear from the script just how much control they had
> over their flight path; some space-science writers at the time implied that such a
> vehicle would adjust its descent to keep the skin temperature within the safe limits
> of the metal, possibly stainless steel or nickel alloy, both used in experimental rocket
> planes, and the glide might cover thousands of miles. The big hole in the fuselage,
> presumably from a meteor, didn't help. They managed to level off just over the water
> and then pitched down, coming to a catastrophic stop and then floating nose down
> about half submerged. It was not clear if the spacecraft was capable of landing
> on water; some World War 2 aircraft could NOT be ditched safely and the best course
> was to bail out. Local fishermen who happened to be nearby were able to enter
> through the hole and rescue the two surviving crew. The spacecraft gradually flooded
> and sank. This site has a good picture of the floating spacecraft:
>
> https://www.grindhousedatabase.com/index.php/20_Million_Miles_To_Earth/Review
> > Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
> > here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
> > Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
> > designed to handle?
> What do you mean by "Lunar Return Module"? If you mean the module that returned from
> the Moon, that would be the Command Module, which was designed to land in water and
> did so successfully on every mission. It floated low in the water and had two small airbags
> that deployed to keep it upright even in rough water. If you mean the Lunar Excursion Module,
> the ascent stage by itself with propellent tanks empty would have floated as if it were made
> of balsa wood. With both the ascent stage and the descent stage together with full tanks
> I would have to make an estimate based on published information.
> >
> > Same would go for "Space Suits".
> > > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> > --
> The idea of wearing standard spacesuits underwater was used by Hal Clement in his 1965
> short story _Raindrop_. The setting was an orbital farm made from cometary ice moved to
> low Earth orbit, thawed out with mirrors, and enclosed in a transparent membrane. It was
> used to grow genetically engineered edible algae. Because of the microgravity environment
> buoyancy from the enclosed air volume of the suits was not a problem.

Pressure is also an issue. Spacesuits normally contain near pure O2 at low pressure, to
allow joints to bend. Doing this under water would be problematic. The low pressure could
not be maintained, and pure O2 becomes toxic a bit above 2 atmospheres.

Pt

David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:53:49
-0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
>> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >
>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship can
>> survive reentry.
>>
>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
>> Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
>> designed to handle?
>>
>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>> --

>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules can typically float.

Space capsules are designed to float. The whole idea was a water
landing was easier to design than landing on the ground.

> If it had any kind of airbag system, the bags could keep it afloat for a while even if it wasn't buoyant in itself. I was most interested in confirming crush depths for submarines. Apparently, this was something like 200-300 meters for vessels in the WW2 era, which would presumably be much sturdier than a spaceship but not at the limits of feasible design. That would have to be the Trieste, the purpose-built bathyscape they dropped to the bottom of the Marianas Trench in 1960. In shallow coastal waters and especially freshwater bodies, a submerged spacecraft should be fine.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

"peterwezeman@hotmail.com" <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov
2022 13:28:03 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have floated?
>> Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under pressures it was not
>> designed to handle?
>
>What do you mean by "Lunar Return Module"? If you mean the module that returned from
>the Moon, that would be the Command Module, which was designed to land in water and
>did so successfully on every mission.

No, I had in mind the part which launched from the moon with the
astronauts and moon rocks, rendezvoused with the orbiting Command
Module, and was then crashed back on the moon to test the
seismometers.
(I just recalled the name: LEM. Lunar Excursion Module.)

That was a true "space ship" designed to function in "death
pressure", a zero bar atmosphere, with no concerns about streamlining
or aerodynamics.

The Command Module itself was designed to transit from "space" to
the atmosphere, to the surface, and make a water landing. It did that
quite well.

> It floated low in the water and had two small airbags
>that deployed to keep it upright even in rough water. If you mean the Lunar Excursion Module,

Yes, that jalopy.

>the ascent stage by itself with propellent tanks empty would have floated as if it were made
>of balsa wood.

I was going to ask about watertight integrity, but I think it is
safe to assume that if it can hold air, it can probably keep out
water.

For the sake of discussion: Assume the ascent stage (tanks and
all) either has negative buoyancy, or achieves negative buoyancy (one
of the tanks leaks for "reasons"). The passenger capsule can
withstand how much external pressure before something gives?? It is
not designed to function at earth normal pressure (okay it had to
handle being launched from sea level, but that's a balloon in a tin
can.), but not "underwater".

>With both the ascent stage and the descent stage together with full tanks
>I would have to make an estimate based on published information.

Okay.

But the point is: the LEM was not designed to function under
pressure. It was meant to keep air in (at 4.8 psi), it might be
possible to raise air internal pressure to counter outside pressure
(assuming sufficient stores, etc, etc.).

>
>>
>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>>
>The idea of wearing standard spacesuits underwater was used by Hal Clement in his 1965
>short story _Raindrop_. The setting was an orbital farm made from cometary ice moved to
>low Earth orbit, thawed out with mirrors, and enclosed in a transparent membrane. It was
>used to grow genetically engineered edible algae. Because of the microgravity environment
>buoyancy from the enclosed air volume of the suits was not a problem.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02eghajtr40n91kai2s@4ax.com:

> David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
> following:
>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
>>filipivich wrote:
>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
>>> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>> >
>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship
>>> can survive reentry.
>>>
>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have
>>> floated? Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under
>>> pressures it was not designed to handle?
>>>
>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water
>>> > out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
>>> > hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits
>>> > should also work underwater, though that could be more
>>> > complicated. The big differences would be in
>>> > thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>>> --
>
>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules can
>>typically float.
>
> Space capsules are designed to float.

Unless they fill up with water . . .

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:nkognhpmloncrs4ksrmid9socn8je5u9o2@4ax.com:

> But the point is: the LEM was not designed to function
> under
> pressure. It was meant to keep air in (at 4.8 psi), it might be
> possible to raise air internal pressure to counter outside
> pressure (assuming sufficient stores, etc, etc.).
>
To give it some perspective, consider that the minimum thickness of
the walls of the LM was 0.015 to 0.025 inches, with ribs at 0.812 to
brace it.

This is about the same thickness as an aluminum can at the time
(which was thicker than they are now).

The comparison to an aluminum can is a good one: designed to hold
internal pressure, and it does so very, very well, Try to cruch an
unopened aluminum can, even today with the thinner walls. Like
automobiles, the shape of the can (or LM) provides structural
integrity. But release the internal pressure (or reverse it by
putting it underwater), and that structural integrity is compromised.
It might, technically, hold the pressure, but wave motion would beat
the hell out of it pretty quickly. Aside from how easily one could
simply poke holes in it with a sharp object.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >
> > --
> > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> > ã-----------------------------------------------------
> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.

The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines, but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience. It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark somewhere in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
-0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
>> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
>> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
>> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
>> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
>> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
>> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
>> better in water.
>
>The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
>but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
>months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
>outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
>just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
>It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
>volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
>little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
>where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
>with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
>deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
>be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
>more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.

In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
survival skill in the environment they work in.

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:35:08
GMT typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
>news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02eghajtr40n91kai2s@4ax.com:
>
>> David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> following:
>>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
>>>filipivich wrote:
>>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:02:21
>>>> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>>> >
>>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
>>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship
>>>> can survive reentry.
>>>>
>>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>>>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module have
>>>> floated? Could it maintain "water tight integrity" under
>>>> pressures it was not designed to handle?
>>>>
>>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water
>>>> > out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
>>>> > hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits
>>>> > should also work underwater, though that could be more
>>>> > complicated. The big differences would be in
>>>> > thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>>>> --
>>
>>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules can
>>>typically float.
>>
>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>
>Unless they fill up with water . . .

"Details, details ..."

I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty Bell 7
off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge from the
helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely. "there was some
leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule began taking on
water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the report. B-)

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We didn't have these sorts of problems when I was a boy,
back when snakes wore shoes and dirt was $2 a pound,
if you could find it. We had to make our own from rocks!

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 9:25:15 AM UTC-6, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> > >
> > > --
> > > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> > > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> > > ã-----------------------------------------------------
> > > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines, but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience. It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark somewhere in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.

"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail;
for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned...
a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."

Samuel Johnson

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:rf3inh9r1sblsgkt1qbu8l21fublt3en2t@4ax.com:

> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022
> 07:35:08 GMT typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
>>news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02eghajtr40n91kai2s@4ax.com:
>>
>>> David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>>> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>>> following:
>>>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
>>>>filipivich wrote:
>>>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>>>>> 07:02:21 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>>>>> following:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
>>>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>>>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship
>>>>> can survive reentry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>>>>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module
>>>>> have floated? Could it maintain "water tight integrity"
>>>>> under pressures it was not designed to handle?
>>>>>
>>>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>>>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep
>>>>> > water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a
>>>>> > few hundred meters at least. That also means that
>>>>> > spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could
>>>>> > be more complicated. The big differences would be in
>>>>> > thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>>>>> --
>>>
>>>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules
>>>>can typically float.
>>>
>>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>>
>>Unless they fill up with water . . .
>
> "Details, details ..."
>
> I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
> Bell 7
> off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge
> from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely.
> "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule
> began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the
> report. B-)
>
The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom. Christ
Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never any thought
that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that if there had
been, he would have been removed from the flight schedule (which he
never was). And literally nobody knows more about it than him.
(There were a number of inaccuracies in that movie that were done
for . . . dramatic purposes.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 5:47:51 PM UTC, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:rf3inh9r1sblsgkt1...@4ax.com:
> > Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022
> > 07:35:08 GMT typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >>pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> >>news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02...@4ax.com:
> >>
> >>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
> >>> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
> >>> following:
> >>>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
> >>>>filipivich wrote:
> >>>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
> >>>>> 07:02:21 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
> >>>>> following:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
> >>>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
> >>>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship
> >>>>> can survive reentry.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
> >>>>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module
> >>>>> have floated? Could it maintain "water tight integrity"
> >>>>> under pressures it was not designed to handle?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
> >>>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep
> >>>>> > water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a
> >>>>> > few hundred meters at least. That also means that
> >>>>> > spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could
> >>>>> > be more complicated. The big differences would be in
> >>>>> > thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
> >>>>> --
> >>>
> >>>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules
> >>>>can typically float.
> >>>
> >>> Space capsules are designed to float.
> >>
> >>Unless they fill up with water . . .
> >
> > "Details, details ..."
> >
> > I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
> > Bell 7
> > off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge
> > from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely.
> > "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule
> > began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the
> > report. B-)
> >
> The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom. Christ
> Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never any thought
> that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that if there had
> been, he would have been removed from the flight schedule (which he
> never was). And literally nobody knows more about it than him.
> (There were a number of inaccuracies in that movie that were done
> for . . . dramatic purposes.)
> --
> Terry Austin
>
> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
> Lynn:
> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
>
>
> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
> -- David Bilek
>
> Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/sinking-liberty-bell-7-gus-grissoms-near-fatal-mission supports what you said about Grissom, but also confirms my memory that the line in the film was faithful to the line taken in the book - so the blame lies not with a director but with a writer/reporter. Does this then count as an early example of fake news? :-)

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> schrieb:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 5:47:51 PM UTC, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>> news:rf3inh9r1sblsgkt1...@4ax.com:
>> > Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022
>> > 07:35:08 GMT typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >>pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>> >>news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02...@4ax.com:
>> >>
>> >>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>> >>> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> >>> following:
>> >>>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
>> >>>>filipivich wrote:
>> >>>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>> >>>>> 07:02:21 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> >>>>> following:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
>> >>>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>> >>>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space ship
>> >>>>> can survive reentry.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it get
>> >>>>> here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return Module
>> >>>>> have floated? Could it maintain "water tight integrity"
>> >>>>> under pressures it was not designed to handle?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>> >>>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep
>> >>>>> > water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a
>> >>>>> > few hundred meters at least. That also means that
>> >>>>> > spacesuits should also work underwater, though that could
>> >>>>> > be more complicated. The big differences would be in
>> >>>>> > thermoregulation, which could actually be better in water.
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>
>> >>>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space capsules
>> >>>>can typically float.
>> >>>
>> >>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>> >>
>> >>Unless they fill up with water . . .
>> >
>> > "Details, details ..."
>> >
>> > I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
>> > Bell 7
>> > off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge
>> > from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely.
>> > "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule
>> > began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the
>> > report. B-)
>> >
>> The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom. Christ
>> Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never any thought
>> that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that if there had
>> been, he would have been removed from the flight schedule (which he
>> never was). And literally nobody knows more about it than him.
>> (There were a number of inaccuracies in that movie that were done
>> for . . . dramatic purposes.)
>> --
>> Terry Austin
>>
>> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
>> Lynn:
>> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
>>
>>
>> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
>> -- David Bilek
>>
>> Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
>
> https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/sinking-liberty-bell-7-gus-grissoms-near-fatal-mission
> supports what you said about Grissom, but also confirms my
> memory that the line in the film was faithful to the line taken
> in the book - so the blame lies not with a director but with a
> writer/reporter. Does this then count as an early example of fake
> news? :-)

I believe Ramses II's account of the battle of Kadesh was
much earlier.

On 2022-11-19, pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>>> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>>> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>>> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>>> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
>>> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
>>> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
>>> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
>>> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
>>> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
>>> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
>>> better in water.
>>
>>The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
>>but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
>>months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
>>outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
>>just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
>>It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
>>volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
>>little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
>>where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
>>with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
>>deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
>>be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
>>more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
>
> In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> survival skill in the environment they work in.

ObSF: _Under Pressure_ by Frank Herbert (AKA _21 Century Sub_, AKA
_The Dragon in the Sea_). A Favorite. Your comment is an excellent
summary of it.

Chris

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 10:06:20
-0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>> >>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>> >>
>> >>Unless they fill up with water . . .
>> >
>> > "Details, details ..."
>> >
>> > I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
>> > Bell 7
>> > off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge
>> > from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely.
>> > "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule
>> > began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the
>> > report. B-)
>> >
>> The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom. Christ
>> Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never any thought
>> that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that if there had
>> been, he would have been removed from the flight schedule (which he
>> never was). And literally nobody knows more about it than him.
>> (There were a number of inaccuracies in that movie that were done
>> for . . . dramatic purposes.)

>https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/sinking-liberty-bell-7-gus-grissoms-near-fatal-mission supports what you said about Grissom, but also confirms my memory that the line in the film was faithful to the line taken in the book - so the blame lies not with a director but with a writer/reporter. Does this then count as an early example of fake news? :-)

It is an example of the power of Theater to shape people's
perceptions. Good example, I recall reading an interview with Carl
Bernstein, talking about the movie "All the President's Men" in which
Dustin Hoffman played him, and Robert Redford played his partner.
Talking about the impact the movie had, how people would take the
movie as the Real History, he was asked what color was Woodward hair.
He said "light brown". Unfortunately for him, Robert Redford's hair
is light brown, his partner's hair was brown.
So even an "eye witness to history" can be influenced by
presentation in a drama.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)