On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 9:20:53 AM UTC+11, danny burstein wrote:
> In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2...@googlegroups.com> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> [snip]
> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> >of that organization.
> I thought those novels were by Paul French...

Later editions, including my copies, dropped the pseudonym.

-Moriarty

On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 4:20:53 PM UTC-6, danny burstein wrote:
> In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2...@googlegroups.com> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> [snip]
> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> >of that organization.
> I thought those novels were by Paul French...

The positronic robots didn't give it away?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In article <20173645-d987-477e-9919-dbf3cbfc56a1n@googlegroups.com>,
peterwezeman@hotmail.com <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 4:20:53 PM UTC-6, danny burstein wrote:
>> In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2...@googlegroups.com> "peterw...@hotmail.com"
><peterw...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>> [snip]
>> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
>> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
>> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
>> >of that organization.
>> I thought those novels were by Paul French...
>
>The positronic robots didn't give it away?
>

There was a YA series whose robot protag had a "Genuine Asimov
Positronic Brain!" (His robot dog sidekick also had a GAPB but it
had to be trimmed to fit into the skull space and so was sensitve
around the edges, giving the dog very good hunches).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:45:03 AM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <20173645-d987-477e...@googlegroups.com>,
> peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 4:20:53 PM UTC-6, danny burstein wrote:
> >> In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2...@googlegroups.com> "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> ><peterw...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> >> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> >> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> >> >of that organization.
> >> I thought those novels were by Paul French...
> >
> >The positronic robots didn't give it away?
> >
> There was a YA series whose robot protag had a "Genuine Asimov
> Positronic Brain!" (His robot dog sidekick also had a GAPB but it
> had to be trimmed to fit into the skull space and so was sensitve
> around the edges, giving the dog very good hunches).

In John Sladek's "Tik Tok", the titular robot's asimov circuits malfunction, leaving it able to gleefully murder humans as it sees fit. Eventually it uses this talent to become VPOTUS.

-Moriarty

On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 9:48:37 PM UTC-5, Moriarty wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:45:03 AM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <20173645-d987-477e...@googlegroups.com>,
> > peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 4:20:53 PM UTC-6, danny burstein wrote:
> > >> In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2...@googlegroups.com> "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> > ><peterw...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> > >> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> > >> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> > >> >of that organization.
> > >> I thought those novels were by Paul French...
> > >
> > >The positronic robots didn't give it away?
> > >
> > There was a YA series whose robot protag had a "Genuine Asimov
> > Positronic Brain!" (His robot dog sidekick also had a GAPB but it
> > had to be trimmed to fit into the skull space and so was sensitve
> > around the edges, giving the dog very good hunches).
> In John Sladek's "Tik Tok", the titular robot's asimov circuits malfunction, leaving it able to gleefully murder humans as it sees fit. Eventually it uses this talent to become VPOTUS.

Sladek also wrote an anthology of parodies of other authors. 'Tik-Tok' had its germ
there. Can't recall the title, but the author byline was "IClick AsIMove".

Pt

On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 14:13:44 -0800 (PST), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
>> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>> >>
>> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
>> >> Wentworth.
>> >
>> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>> >
>> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
>> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
>> right now.
>>
>From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
>adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
>of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
>of that organization. As in most science fiction stories from that period
>some of the planetary science is obsolete, and later editions included
>a brief preface by Asimov describing the present state of knowledge and
>the evidence for this. The series has some features in common with
>_The Caves of Steel_, such as positronic robots and an Earth-Sirius
>rivalry, but also significant differences, such as the fact that Earth
>science is generally more advanced than that of the spacers.
>
>In _Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus_ that planet is completely covered
>in water, with no continents or islands (shouldn't the book then be called
>_Lucky Starr and the Ocean of Venus_?) Humans live in domed cities on
>the ocean floor with no conventional spaceports. Commerce is via orbital
>space stations. Special shuttles depart from airlocks in the cities, ascend
>as submarines to the surface, penetrate the mat of floating seaweed, climb
>through the atmosphere, and accelerate to orbit.

Did he merely correct the planetary science to correct the view of
Venus -- that is, did he still believe that /every/ star system would
consist of rocky planets inwards and gas giants outwards) -- or was
this after the first exoplanet (when shot that theory down in flames)
was discovered?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:05:36 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 14:13:44 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >> >
> >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> >> right now.
> >>
> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> >of that organization. As in most science fiction stories from that period
> >some of the planetary science is obsolete, and later editions included
> >a brief preface by Asimov describing the present state of knowledge and
> >the evidence for this. The series has some features in common with
> >_The Caves of Steel_, such as positronic robots and an Earth-Sirius
> >rivalry, but also significant differences, such as the fact that Earth
> >science is generally more advanced than that of the spacers.
> >
> >In _Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus_ that planet is completely covered
> >in water, with no continents or islands (shouldn't the book then be called
> >_Lucky Starr and the Ocean of Venus_?) Humans live in domed cities on
> >the ocean floor with no conventional spaceports. Commerce is via orbital
> >space stations. Special shuttles depart from airlocks in the cities, ascend
> >as submarines to the surface, penetrate the mat of floating seaweed, climb
> >through the atmosphere, and accelerate to orbit.

> Did he merely correct the planetary science to correct the view of
> Venus -- that is, did he still believe that /every/ star system would
> consist of rocky planets inwards and gas giants outwards) -- or was
> this after the first exoplanet (when shot that theory down in flames)
> was discovered?

Well, he did not "correct" the planetary science in the sense of changing the obsolete parts of the story -- this is the author who famously published a story predicting that the top of Mount Everest would never be reached after the public success of the Hillary expedition. I believe he was dead, if not finished publishing before the first exoplanet system discovery.

Would spaceships that can deal with what we now know as the air pressure of Venus count as ones that can handle submarine pressure?
Niven's "Becalmed in Hell"?

--
-Jack

On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 4:05:36 AM UTC+11, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 14:13:44 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
> >> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
> >> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >> >>
> >> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> >> Wentworth.
> >> >
> >> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >> >
> >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> >> right now.
> >>
> >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> >of that organization. As in most science fiction stories from that period
> >some of the planetary science is obsolete, and later editions included
> >a brief preface by Asimov describing the present state of knowledge and
> >the evidence for this. The series has some features in common with
> >_The Caves of Steel_, such as positronic robots and an Earth-Sirius
> >rivalry, but also significant differences, such as the fact that Earth
> >science is generally more advanced than that of the spacers.
> >
> >In _Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus_ that planet is completely covered
> >in water, with no continents or islands (shouldn't the book then be called
> >_Lucky Starr and the Ocean of Venus_?) Humans live in domed cities on
> >the ocean floor with no conventional spaceports. Commerce is via orbital
> >space stations. Special shuttles depart from airlocks in the cities, ascend
> >as submarines to the surface, penetrate the mat of floating seaweed, climb
> >through the atmosphere, and accelerate to orbit.

> Did he merely correct the planetary science to correct the view of
> Venus -- that is, did he still believe that /every/ star system would
> consist of rocky planets inwards and gas giants outwards) -- or was
> this after the first exoplanet (when shot that theory down in flames)
> was discovered?

The foreword was written in 1970, long before any exoplanet was discovered. I reproduce it below from my copy.

"This book was first published in 1954, and the description of the surface of Venus was in accordance with astronomic beliefs of the period.

Since 1954, however, astronomical knowledge of the inner Solar system has advanced enormously because of the use of radar beams and rockets.

In the late 1950s, the quantity of radio waves received from Venus made it seem that the surface of Venus might be much hotter than had been thought. On August 27, 1962, a rocket probe called "Mariner II" was launched in the direction of Venus. It skimmed by within 21,000 miles of Venus on December 14, 1962. Measuring the radio waves emitted by the planet, it turned out that the surface temperature everywhere was indeed considerably higher than the boiling point of water.

This meant that far from having a worldwide ocean, as described in this book, Venus had no ocean at all. All of Venus's water is in the form of water vapor in its clouds, and the surface is exceedingly hot and is bone-dry. The atmosphere of Venus is, moreover, denser than had been thought and is almost entirely carbon dioxide.

Nor had it been known, in 1954, how long it took Venus to rotate on its axis. In 1964, radar beams bounced off Venus's surface showed that it was turning once in every 243 days (eighteen days longer than its year) and in the "wrong" direction as compared with other planets.

I hope that the readers enjoy this story anyway, but I would not wish them to be misguided into accepting as fact some of the material which was "accurate" in 1954 but which is now outdated.

Isaac Asimov

November, 1970"

-Moriarty

In <51bf6e0e-94b2-4765-b150-2c99b7579793n@googlegroups.com> Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> writes:

[snipppp, regarding Asimov's "Lucky Starr" book about Venus]

>> Did he merely correct the planetary science to correct the view of=20
>> Venus -- that is, did he still believe that /every/ star system would=20
>> consist of rocky planets inwards and gas giants outwards) -- or was=20
>> this after the first exoplanet (when shot that theory down in flames)=20
>> was discovered?=20

>The foreword was written in 1970, long before any exoplanet was discovered.=
> I reproduce it below from my copy.

>"This book was first published in 1954, and the description of the surface =
>of Venus was in accordance with astronomic beliefs of the period.
[snip]
>This meant that far from having a worldwide ocean, as described in this boo=
>k, Venus had no ocean at all. All of Venus's water is in the form of water =
>vapor in its clouds, and the surface is exceedingly hot and is bone-dry. Th=
>e atmosphere of Venus is, moreover, denser than had been thought and is alm=
>ost entirely carbon dioxide.

>Nor had it been known, in 1954, how long it took Venus to rotate on its axi=
>s. In 1964, radar beams bounced off Venus's surface showed that it was turn=
>ing once in every 243 days (eighteen days longer than its year) and in the =
>"wrong" direction as compared with other planets.

>I hope that the readers enjoy this story anyway, but I would not wish them =
>to be misguided into accepting as fact some of the material which was "accu=
>rate" in 1954 but which is now outdated.

I recall another foreward of his, maybe regarding Mercury? Or
perhaps in his memior book, where he made similar comments about
science having advanced, and ends them with something like
he "wished scientists had gotten it correct in the beginning..."

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:05:36 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 14:13:44 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> > <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> > >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> > >> right now.
> > >>
> > >From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
> > >adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
> > >of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
> > >of that organization. As in most science fiction stories from that period
> > >some of the planetary science is obsolete, and later editions included
> > >a brief preface by Asimov describing the present state of knowledge and
> > >the evidence for this. The series has some features in common with
> > >_The Caves of Steel_, such as positronic robots and an Earth-Sirius
> > >rivalry, but also significant differences, such as the fact that Earth
> > >science is generally more advanced than that of the spacers.
> > >
> > >In _Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus_ that planet is completely covered
> > >in water, with no continents or islands (shouldn't the book then be called
> > >_Lucky Starr and the Ocean of Venus_?) Humans live in domed cities on
> > >the ocean floor with no conventional spaceports. Commerce is via orbital
> > >space stations. Special shuttles depart from airlocks in the cities, ascend
> > >as submarines to the surface, penetrate the mat of floating seaweed, climb
> > >through the atmosphere, and accelerate to orbit.
>
> > Did he merely correct the planetary science to correct the view of
> > Venus -- that is, did he still believe that /every/ star system would
> > consist of rocky planets inwards and gas giants outwards) -- or was
> > this after the first exoplanet (when shot that theory down in flames)
> > was discovered?
> Well, he did not "correct" the planetary science in the sense of changing the obsolete parts of the story -- this is the author who famously published a story predicting that the top of Mount Everest would never be reached after the public success of the Hillary expedition. I believe he was dead, if not finished publishing before the first exoplanet system discovery.
>
> Would spaceships that can deal with what we now know as the air pressure of Venus count as ones that can handle submarine pressure?
> Niven's "Becalmed in Hell"?

I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
In Earths oceans.

However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.

Pt

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:

> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
> In Earths oceans.
>
> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.

Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.

You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.

For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
on Venus.

On 23/11/2022 15.32, danny burstein wrote:
> In <51bf6e0e-94b2-4765-b150-2c99b7579793n@googlegroups.com> Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> writes:
>
> [snipppp, regarding Asimov's "Lucky Starr" book about Venus]

>> Nor had it been known, in 1954, how long it took Venus to rotate on its axi=
>> s. In 1964, radar beams bounced off Venus's surface showed that it was turn=
>> ing once in every 243 days (eighteen days longer than its year) and in the =
>> "wrong" direction as compared with other planets.
>
>> I hope that the readers enjoy this story anyway, but I would not wish them =
>> to be misguided into accepting as fact some of the material which was "accu=
>> rate" in 1954 but which is now outdated.
>
> I recall another foreward of his, maybe regarding Mercury? Or
> perhaps in his memior book, where he made similar comments about
> science having advanced, and ends them with something like
> he "wished scientists had gotten it correct in the beginning..."

That's in an Afterword to "The Dying Night", at least in my edition of
_Asimov's Mysteries_.

Putting it in the Foreword would have resulted in spoilage for some.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?58939>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 18:11:49
-0000 (UTC) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>> In Earths oceans.
>>
>> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>
>Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
>be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.
>
>You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
>sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
>We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
>possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
>wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>
>For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
>flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
>at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
>on Venus.

I recall a story where "heat sinks" were used, lead blocks in a
combination heat sink and ballast. Yes, you do not have much time on
the surface as your ballast melts away, but ...
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 09:51:17
-0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>
>> Would spaceships that can deal with what we now know as the air pressure of Venus count as ones that can handle submarine pressure?
>> Niven's "Becalmed in Hell"?
>
>I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>In Earths oceans.
>
>However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>
>Pt
I recall a story which had such a plot device. Essentially on
character is sent to recover a body / wreck from the surface of Venus.
He almost makes it. Almost. But is rescued by "the bad guy" - a
belter who had "over engineered" his ship because "you never know".
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

In <3p80oh5ptrn20og8518jkm61g9g9dmgp5c@4ax.com> pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
[snip]
> I recall a story which had such a plot device. Essentially on
>character is sent to recover a body / wreck from the surface of Venus.
>He almost makes it. Almost. But is rescued by "the bad guy" - a
>belter who had "over engineered" his ship because "you never know".

likely to be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(novel)

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 25/11/22 15:13, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 09:51:17
> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>
>>> Would spaceships that can deal with what we now know as the air pressure of Venus count as ones that can handle submarine pressure?
>>> Niven's "Becalmed in Hell"?
>>
>> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>> In Earths oceans.
>>
>> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>>
>> Pt
> I recall a story which had such a plot device. Essentially on
> character is sent to recover a body / wreck from the surface of Venus.
> He almost makes it. Almost. But is rescued by "the bad guy" - a
> belter who had "over engineered" his ship because "you never know".

Although almost completely unrelated to the Subject and to your story I
am reminded of a brilliant Alistair Reynolds short story set far in the
future, A Spy in Europa, in which a spy is adapted to breathe in the
underground seas of Jupiter's Europa to perform a secret mission.

On 11/24/2022 6:13 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 18:11:49
> -0000 (UTC) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>>> In Earths oceans.
>>>
>>> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>>
>> Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
>> be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.
>>
>> You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
>> sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
>> We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
>> possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
>> wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>>
>> For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
>> flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
>> at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
>> on Venus.
>
> I recall a story where "heat sinks" were used, lead blocks in a
> combination heat sink and ballast. Yes, you do not have much time on
> the surface as your ballast melts away, but ...
you gain much more time as it does so. ;)
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 1:11:53 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
> > In Earths oceans.
> >
> > However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
> Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
> be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.
>
> You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
> sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
> We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
> possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
> wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>
> For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
> flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
> at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
> on Venus.

Yes, it's the temperature that kills you. We do have research subs that
operate routinely beyond those depths. I've seen proposals for Venus surface
probes that try to leave all the sensitive electronics in orbit, but I'm not
sure how useful they would be.

Pt

danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> on Fri, 25 Nov 2022 02:35:40 -0000
(UTC) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>In <3p80oh5ptrn20og8518jkm61g9g9dmgp5c@4ax.com> pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> writes:
>[snip]
>> I recall a story which had such a plot device. Essentially on
>>character is sent to recover a body / wreck from the surface of Venus.
>>He almost makes it. Almost. But is rescued by "the bad guy" - a
>>belter who had "over engineered" his ship because "you never know".
>
>likely to be:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(novel)

Yep, that's the story.

I'm good at remember story plots & details, not so good on
trivialities like titles and authors.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:53:35 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 1:11:53 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> > On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>> > In Earths oceans.
>> >
>> > However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>> Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
>> be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.
>>
>> You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
>> sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
>> We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
>> possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
>> wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>>
>> For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
>> flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
>> at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
>> on Venus.
>
>Yes, it's the temperature that kills you. We do have research subs that
>operate routinely beyond those depths. I've seen proposals for Venus surface
>probes that try to leave all the sensitive electronics in orbit, but I'm not
>sure how useful they would be.

Probably more useful than probes that expose them to the Venusian
climate.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

Never happen; dumb idea. The crew would roast without coolant water.

On Friday, November 25, 2022 at 9:27:00 PM UTC-6, jack tingle wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >
> > --
> > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> > ã-----------------------------------------------------
> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
>
> Never happen; dumb idea. The crew would roast without coolant water.
>
It made sense in context; they added external radiators in the refit. You
might take a look at John Ringo's _Through the Looking Glass_ and see
if you like the series.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In article <301009fd-7868-4fb5-8dbd-a0bba11b5bddn@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 2:38:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> schrieb:
>> > In article <ju0jjq...@mid.individual.net>,
>> > t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's
>_Vorpal Blade_.
>> >> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> >> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but
>I vaguely
>> >> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint
>and K. D.
>> >> >> Wentworth.
>> >> >
>> >> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>> >> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>> >> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
>> >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
>> >> right now.
>> >>
>> >
>> > The problem with a spaceship underwater is the shallow crushing depth
>> > (about 30 feet, I suspect).
>> It is much easier to build something that will hold pressure
>> from the inside than pressure from the outside. Pressure from
>> the inside will just put the structure under tensile strength.
>> Pressure from the outside will lead to compressive stress and,
>> most importantly, a danger of buckling. Failing to ventilate
>> storage tanks when emptying them has led to large structural
>> failues.
>>
>> There is usually no need to design a spaceship against buckling,
>> so I would expect it to fail at a rather low pressure difference.
>
>Some rockets rely on internal pressurization for their structural
>integrity, and *will* buckle under merely their own weight if its
>removed.
>
>SFW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imkdz63agHY

(Hal Heydt)
G. Harry Stine mentioned an incident in _Rocket Power and Space
Flight_ in which there was a fuel explosion that blew the bottom
out of the lower--fuel--tank of a Viking rocket. LOX then
dripped down from the upper tank creating a partial vacuum,
threatening to collapse the entire frame. The range safety
officer walked outside, borrowed a rifle from a guard and shot a
couple of holes in the upper tank. The rocket was later rebuilt
and flown.

And as for spaceships under water... No one so far has mentioned
David Brin. _Startide Rising_ and _Brightness Reef_/_Infinity's
Shore_/_Heaven's Reach_.

In article <gv80ohdjhvsrgp56il6hh9d6s794dg09qf@4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 18:11:49
>-0000 (UTC) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>>pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5,
>jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres,
>equivalent to 1km down
>>> In Earths oceans.
>>>
>>> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate
>in both environments.
>>
>>Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
>>be hard to deal with - 475�C is something.

>>You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
>>sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
>>We operate gas turbines to above 1000�C, so this is in principle
>>possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
>>wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>>
>>For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
>>flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
>>at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
>>on Venus.
>
> I recall a story where "heat sinks" were used, lead blocks in a
>combination heat sink and ballast. Yes, you do not have much time on
>the surface as your ballast melts away, but ...

(Hal Heydt)
I've thought for some years that the solution would be to develop
high temperature electronics. There are varieties of vaccuum
tubes that might work well at Venus-surface temperatures. It
might be worth seeing if carbon-based semiconductors would work
at those temperatures.

On 11/24/2022 12:11 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
>> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 12:29:56 PM UTC-5, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'd think so. The surface pressure on Venus is about 93 atmospheres, equivalent to 1km down
>> In Earths oceans.
>>
>> However, I have difficulty imaging a single vessel that could operate in both environments.
>
> Something could be built for the pressure, but temperature would
> be hard to deal with - 475°C is something.
>
> You would need very hot energy source (probably nuclear) to run some
> sort heating / cooling cycle for the inner spaces to remain cool.
> We operate gas turbines to above 1000°C, so this is in principle
> possible. What we do _not_ do is to operate bearings or electrical
> wires or.... at that temperature, nor do we know how to.
>
> For short stays, an evaporative cooling might work, with the coolant
> flowing outwards through insulation. Water could be a possiblity,
> at least its critical pressure is higher than the ambient pressure
> on Venus.

Modern gas turbines from GE are running at 1,400 C (2,600 F). They use
100% ceramic combustion pots, power turbine blades, etc.
https://www.ge.com/gas-power/products/gas-turbines/lm6000

So, if you build your space ship out of ceramic ...

Lynn