"The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/

Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.

Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
the time storm, everything is different.

David Weber has a good website at:
https://www.davidweber.net/

My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)

Lynn

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
> the time storm, everything is different.

David Weber, while an experienced and successful author, hadn't written
anything about time travel before, so this perhaps explains the co-author.

The... short description... is interesting. Usually, it is presumed that going
into the past and just standing in the way of the breeze will change the
future beyond all recognition - at least, these days, now that we know
about chaos theory and the butterfly effect.

So it's bold and retro to write a time travel story that says that stealing books
that will get burned shortly anyways won't change history. But time storms...

do they change history, or just swat time travel ships off course into another
timeline?

However, presumably, I am overthinking this. The premise is not to show off
a theory of time travel, it's just to set up putting the characters into the world
where "everything is different". In that case, David Weber has already written
alt-hist (or was that John Ringo?) and so a co-author is hardly needed...

John Savard

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:35:49 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> In that case, David Weber has already written
> alt-hist (or was that John Ringo?) and so a co-author is hardly needed...

Ah. Eric Flint. But David Weber guest authored one volume in that series.

John Savard

On 1/24/2023 2:35 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>> the time storm, everything is different.
>
> David Weber, while an experienced and successful author, hadn't written
> anything about time travel before, so this perhaps explains the co-author.
>
> The... short description... is interesting. Usually, it is presumed that going
> into the past and just standing in the way of the breeze will change the
> future beyond all recognition - at least, these days, now that we know
> about chaos theory and the butterfly effect.
>
> So it's bold and retro to write a time travel story that says that stealing books
> that will get burned shortly anyways won't change history. But time storms...
>
> do they change history, or just swat time travel ships off course into another
> timeline?
>
> However, presumably, I am overthinking this. The premise is not to show off
> a theory of time travel, it's just to set up putting the characters into the world
> where "everything is different". In that case, David Weber has already written
> alt-hist (or was that John Ringo?) and so a co-author is hardly needed...
>
> John Savard

David Weber wrote a science fiction time travel novel "The Apocalypse
Troll' in 1999.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apocalypse_Troll

Lynn

On 1/24/2023 2:37 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:35:49 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
>> In that case, David Weber has already written
>> alt-hist (or was that John Ringo?) and so a co-author is hardly needed...
>
> Ah. Eric Flint. But David Weber guest authored one volume in that series.
>
> John Savard

Yup, "1633". Excellent book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1633_(novel)

Lynn

On 1/24/2023 2:35 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>> the time storm, everything is different.
>
> David Weber, while an experienced and successful author, hadn't written
> anything about time travel before, so this perhaps explains the co-author.
>
> The... short description... is interesting. Usually, it is presumed that going
> into the past and just standing in the way of the breeze will change the
> future beyond all recognition - at least, these days, now that we know
> about chaos theory and the butterfly effect.
>
> So it's bold and retro to write a time travel story that says that stealing books
> that will get burned shortly anyways won't change history. But time storms...
>
> do they change history, or just swat time travel ships off course into another
> timeline?
>
> However, presumably, I am overthinking this. The premise is not to show off
> a theory of time travel, it's just to set up putting the characters into the world
> where "everything is different". In that case, David Weber has already written
> alt-hist (or was that John Ringo?) and so a co-author is hardly needed...
>
> John Savard

The changes in the 30th century were caused by a change in a singular
event in 1940. That caused the known universe to eventually fork into
16 universes, all tied together into a Gordian knot. There was a simple
solution ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

Lynn

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> That caused the known universe to eventually fork into
> 16 universes, all tied together into a Gordian knot. There was a simple
> solution ...

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

Yes, I remember the anecdote about Alexander the Great.

John Savard

In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>
> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>
> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
> the time storm, everything is different.

I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
the text).

*BTW, the time travelers in question had done this some months ago in
his past and he had exposed the entire production, causing an immense
scandal in the late 30th century.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>
>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>
>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>> the time storm, everything is different.
>
>I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>the text).

I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?

On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>
>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>
>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>
>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>> the text).
>
> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?
>
Because originals are always worth more to collectors.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>"The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>
>Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>
>Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>the time storm, everything is different.
>
>David Weber has a good website at:
> https://www.davidweber.net/
>
>My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
>Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)

Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.

There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
recovered as well.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>
>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>
>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>
>>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>>> the text).
>>
>> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
>> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
>> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?
>>
>Because originals are always worth more to collectors.

I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
> > https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
> >
> >Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
> >read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
> >2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
> >
> >Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
> >Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
> >in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
> >a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
> >3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
> >wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> >scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> >encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
> >the time storm, everything is different.
> >
> >David Weber has a good website at:
> > https://www.davidweber.net/
> >
> >My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
> >Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>
> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>

There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
they could loot it at their leisure.

> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
> recovered as well.

Oh, they were doing that as well.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 1/25/2023 11:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>>>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>>
>>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>>
>>>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>>>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>>>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>>>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>>>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>>>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>>>> the text).
>>>
>>> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
>>> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
>>> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?
>>>
>> Because originals are always worth more to collectors.
>
> I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
> burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?

They were operating under the theory that anything they did to the time
line would not affect history. They were wrong.

Lynn

On 1/25/2023 9:57 AM, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>
>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>
>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>
>>> David Weber has a good website at:
>>> https://www.davidweber.net/
>>>
>>> My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
>>> Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>>
>> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>>
>
> There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
> with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
> they could loot it at their leisure.
>
>> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
>> recovered as well.
>
> Oh, they were doing that as well.
>
Which explains how they got "lost" in the first place?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 1/25/2023 3:28 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 1/25/2023 9:57 AM, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
>>   Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and
>>>> Jacob Holo
>>>>     https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>
>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series.  I
>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>> 2019.  I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>
>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of
>>>> Alexandria
>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE.  The Kleio is
>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>>> wedge.  The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned.  But the Kleio
>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other
>>>> side of
>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>>
>>>> David Weber has a good website at:
>>>>     https://www.davidweber.net/
>>>>
>>>> My rating:  4 out of 5 stars
>>>> Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>>>
>>> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>>>
>>
>> There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
>> with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
>> they could loot it at their leisure.
>>
>>> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
>>> recovered as well.
>>
>> Oh, they were doing that as well.
>>
> Which explains how they got "lost" in the first place?

I never did quite understand what caused the "time storm". I just
understood that sixteen universes were tied to the time storm in a
Gordian knot likeness.

Lynn

In article <tqrst3$pc9f$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/25/2023 11:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> > <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
> >>>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
> >>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob
> >>>>> Holo
> >>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
> >>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
> >>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
> >>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of
> >>>>> Alexandria
> >>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
> >>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
> >>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
> >>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> >>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> >>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
> >>>>
> >>>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
> >>>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
> >>>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
> >>>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
> >>>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
> >>>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
> >>>> the text).
> >>>
> >>> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
> >>> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
> >>> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the
> >>> timeline?
> >>>
> >> Because originals are always worth more to collectors.
> >
> > I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
> > burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?
>
> They were operating under the theory that anything they did to the time
> line would not affect history. They were wrong.

IIRC, they had noticed that small changes disappeared (for example, if
on August 5, 400CE, they dug a hole in the ground on an uninhabited
island, left to go somewhere else at a different time, and then returned
on August 6, 400CE, the hole was not there). Big changes (e.g., the raid
on the Great Library), however, caused a new timeline.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 12:37:22 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/25/2023 11:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>>>>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>>>>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>>>>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>>>>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>>>>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>>>>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>>>>> the text).
>>>>
>>>> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
>>>> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
>>>> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?
>>>>
>>> Because originals are always worth more to collectors.
>>
>> I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
>> burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?
>
>They were operating under the theory that anything they did to the time
>line would not affect history. They were wrong.

Ah.

Stupidheads.

That explains it.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 21:45:27 -0800, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <tqrst3$pc9f$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/25/2023 11:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> > On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
>> > <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> writes:
>> >>>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1@dont-email.me>,
>> >>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob
>> >>>>> Holo
>> >>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>> >>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>> >>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>> >>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of
>> >>>>> Alexandria
>> >>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>> >>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>> >>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>> >>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>> >>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>> >>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
>> >>>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
>> >>>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
>> >>>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
>> >>>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
>> >>>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
>> >>>> the text).
>> >>>
>> >>> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
>> >>> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
>> >>> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the
>> >>> timeline?
>> >>>
>> >> Because originals are always worth more to collectors.
>> >
>> > I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
>> > burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?
>>
>> They were operating under the theory that anything they did to the time
>> line would not affect history. They were wrong.
>
>IIRC, they had noticed that small changes disappeared (for example, if
>on August 5, 400CE, they dug a hole in the ground on an uninhabited
>island, left to go somewhere else at a different time, and then returned
>on August 6, 400CE, the hole was not there). Big changes (e.g., the raid
>on the Great Library), however, caused a new timeline.

Still stupidheads.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 09:57:06 -0800, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>> > https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>> >
>> >Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>> >read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>> >2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>> >
>> >Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>> >Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>> >in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>> >a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>> >3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>> >wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>> >scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>> >encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>> >the time storm, everything is different.
>> >
>> >David Weber has a good website at:
>> > https://www.davidweber.net/
>> >
>> >My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
>> >Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>>
>> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>>
>
>There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
>with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
>they could loot it at their leisure.

Still stupidheads, then.

You wait until the wee hours of the morning, and quietly slip in.

As many times as you need to to get everything.

Machines guns not required.

>> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
>> recovered as well.
>
>Oh, they were doing that as well.

No wonder they ended up with a timestorm and a 16-universe Gordian
Knot.

I don't suppose anyone thought to bring a temporal knot cutter?
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 1/25/2023 1:39 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 1/25/2023 3:28 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 1/25/2023 9:57 AM, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
>>>   Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and
>>>>> Jacob Holo
>>>>>     https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>>
>>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series.  I
>>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>>> 2019.  I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of
>>>>> Alexandria
>>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE.  The
>>>>> Kleio is
>>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the
>>>>> temporal
>>>>> wedge.  The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned.  But the Kleio
>>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other
>>>>> side of
>>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Weber has a good website at:
>>>>>     https://www.davidweber.net/
>>>>>
>>>>> My rating:  4 out of 5 stars
>>>>> Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
>>> with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
>>> they could loot it at their leisure.
>>>
>>>> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
>>>> recovered as well.
>>>
>>> Oh, they were doing that as well.
>>>
>> Which explains how they got "lost" in the first place?
>
> I never did quite understand what caused the "time storm".  I just
> understood that sixteen universes were tied to the time storm in a
> Gordian knot likeness.
>
Not what I meant. I was suggesting that all those "lost to history"
libraries _were_ lost to history because time travelers from the future
had looted them. I.E. they were part of what created the timeline that
the time travelers came from.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 1/26/2023 8:40 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 09:57:06 -0800, Robert Woodward
> <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <8ip2th9cb91osi9akmpaf8fpubudaueqq5@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:26:08 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
>>>>
>>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
>>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
>>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
>>>>
>>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
>>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
>>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
>>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
>>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
>>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
>>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
>>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
>>>> the time storm, everything is different.
>>>>
>>>> David Weber has a good website at:
>>>> https://www.davidweber.net/
>>>>
>>>> My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
>>>> Amazon rating 4.3 out of 5 stars (615 reviews)
>>>
>>> Sounds like an excellent use of time travel.
>>>
>>
>> There were ways of "rescuing" stuff besides hosing down the surroundings
>> with advanced machine guns and killing everybody inside the Library so
>> they could loot it at their leisure.
>
> Still stupidheads, then.
>
> You wait until the wee hours of the morning, and quietly slip in.
>
> As many times as you need to to get everything.
>
> Machines guns not required.
>
>>> There were many other libraries, now lost to history, that could be
>>> recovered as well.
>>
>> Oh, they were doing that as well.
>
> No wonder they ended up with a timestorm and a 16-universe Gordian
> Knot.
>
> I don't suppose anyone thought to bring a temporal knot cutter?

Step one, get EVERYONE to worship Alexander the Great as GOD....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2023-01-26, Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> In article <tqrst3$pc9f$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> They were operating under the theory that anything they did to the time
>> line would not affect history. They were wrong.
>
> IIRC, they had noticed that small changes disappeared (for example, if
> on August 5, 400CE, they dug a hole in the ground on an uninhabited
> island, left to go somewhere else at a different time, and then returned
> on August 6, 400CE, the hole was not there). Big changes (e.g., the raid
> on the Great Library), however, caused a new timeline.

This has always seemed to me to be an immensely anthropocentric view of the
multiverse. Why would the universe care specially about human-scale behavior?

What should be the minimum change necessary to cause a universe to divide?

One reasonable border might be the changeover from quantum to classic behavior
for macroscopic objects. This is a problem when you start thinking about all
the things which we take for granted but are caused by quantized behaviors --
light spectra; many biochemical reactions including photosynthesis; computing
devices.

Another border might be astronomical: perhaps the multiverse is happy to
re-merge all universes that don't cause changes affecting the course of nearby
stars. (That could be too parochial, as well. Maybe the multiverse doesn't care
about changes smaller than those that affect the Great Attractor.

-dsr-

On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:30:10 UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:48:27 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 1/25/2023 7:03 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> writes:
> >>> In article <tqpet2$9edv$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "The Gordian Protocol (1) (Gordian Division)" by David Weber and Jacob Holo
> >>>> https://www.amazon.com/Gordian-Protocol-David-Weber/dp/1982124598/
> >>>>
> >>>> Book number one of a four book science fiction time travel series. I
> >>>> read the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Baen in
> >>>> 2019. I have the second book in the series and will read it soon.
> >>>>
> >>>> Raibert Kaminski is a historian with a time machine, the Transtemporal
> >>>> Vehicle Kleio (TTV), traveling back from the Great Library of Alexandria
> >>>> in 30 BCE back to his native time in the 30th century CE. The Kleio is
> >>>> a space ship 160 feet long built around the time machine with built in
> >>>> 3D printers and materials that can replace any part except the temporal
> >>>> wedge. The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> >>>> scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> >>>> encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
> >>>> the time storm, everything is different.
> >>>
> >>> I will admit that this book has a somewhat confusing plot structure.
> >>> There is a prologue with a very destructive raid on Alexandria by time
> >>> travelers who looted the Great Library. Raibert Kaminski was not
> >>> involved*. The early chapters have two different Benjamin Schroders from
> >>> tow different timelines (one is supposed to be ours, the other being the
> >>> one Kaminski found himself in after the time storm (called the Knot in
> >>> the text).
> >>
> >> I'll admit that the entire story sounds contrived. Why would they
> >> steal the contents of the great library when they could have just
> >> photographed or otherwise copied the contents without affecting the timeline?
> >>
> >Because originals are always worth more to collectors.
> I take it the idea of creating and leaving replicas behind to be
> burned (thus hopefully preserving history) never occured to them?

According to my timeline's Wikipedia, at present,
"Despite the widespread modern belief that the
Library of Alexandria was burned once and cataclysmically
destroyed, the Library actually declined gradually over the
course of several centuries."

Maybe this is addressed in Lynn's book.

But if a replica scroll is /not/ burned then you have
_The Wonderful Wizard of Oz_ in print about 1800 years
before it was written. And 1000 years before print.

Well, the new religion of Oz would have a pretty good
hymn book.

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 20:35:49 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > The 30th century historians are stealing all of the books and
> > scrolls before the great library is sacked and burned. But the Kleio
> > encounters a massive time storm on the way back and on the other side of
> > the time storm, everything is different.
> David Weber, while an experienced and successful author, hadn't written
> anything about time travel before, so this perhaps explains the co-author.
>
> The... short description... is interesting. Usually, it is presumed that going
> into the past and just standing in the way of the breeze will change the
> future beyond all recognition - at least, these days, now that we know
> about chaos theory and the butterfly effect.
>
> So it's bold and retro to write a time travel story that says that stealing books
> that will get burned shortly anyways won't change history. But time storms...

Or likewise "hunting" and shooting dinosaurs which have
been observed to get killed at that time anyway without
humans intervening.

No harm, no foul. No sound of thunder.

I refer of course to Clifford Simak's _Mastodonia_.
The British title, apparently, under which I read it,
is _Catface_.