I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the original story at all. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing, heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person. As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus ex machina is still completely useless.. I'm genuinely curious, has anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film (ie the animated one) ???
https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 8:29:03 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
> I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the original story at all.. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing, heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person. As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus ex machina is still completely useless. I'm genuinely curious, has anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film (ie the animated one) ???
> https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html

I read a translation of the original as a kid, part of a 12-volume set of classics for children, I would guess reprinted free from the public domain. I would also guess not heavily edited or rewritten for the children of that time; (I've later found the original of the volume on the Greek myths, I recognized it by the author explaining he wasn't going to tell us what happened with Jason on the return trip of the Argo, we could find out when we were older) instead of simplifying the text, it had large margins in which an unusual word was defined, or an old way of doing things was explained. Sometimes these notes went off on a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy tangent, such as mentioning that a lot of the nutrition of fruit is in or just under the skin next to the episode where a hungry Geppetto gave his last apples to Pinocchio, who refused to eat them unless they were peeled, and the seeds taken out. Yeah, he was quite a brat, wasn't he? Never seen the Disney animated "Pinocchio." I'm quite deficient on Disney cartoons as a whole.

(Just a pet peeve: I'd hate for the phrase "reads like bad fan fiction" to become a stock criticism. In this case I don't know that there was any body of work that Carlo Collodi was imitating or borrowing from. It's like using "a Mary Sue" to describe what one finds as a too-perfect or too-successful character; no, it is specificaly the author writing themselves as a perfect and successful character; Tarzan, for example is not Edgar Rice Burroughs writing a Mary Sue.)

--
-Jack

On 2023-01-25, David Brown <davidnbrown80@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm genuinely curious, has anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film (ie the animated one) ???

I think my only contact with Pinocchio has been the 1976 anime
series, which I saw as a kid on German television.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piccolino_no_B%C5%8Dken

I can't tell if this was ever released in any form in English-
speaking markets.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:29:00 -0800 (PST), David Brown
<davidnbrown80@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the original story at all. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing, heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person. As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus ex machina is still completely useless. I'm genuinely curious, has anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film (ie the animated one) ???
>https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html

1) Yes, I think the 1940 Disney is the best version I have seen.

2) No, I have never read the actual book. I have read references to it
suggesting the Pinocchio descends from being mere a bad boy (but not
bad enough to fully turn into a donkey) into being a true stinker in
the book.

3) It was stop-motion; I saw no reference to Claymation but I suppose
clay might be shaped into wood (it has a /lot/ of wood) easily enough.

4) Gepetto sends Pinocchio to school because the local Fascist tells
him to. It is no coincidence that this same Fascist turns out to be
running a Fascist boys' training camp (which, as you note, replaces
Pleasure Island and features the fate of Mr Fascist Bigshot's son).

5) I didn't find the animation "beautiful". Of course, that is a
matter of taste. I would agree to "lovingly animated", however.

Still, it /was/ better than an earlier one which, as a reviewer
pointed out, "was made for children who would not notice that all the
characters spoke English in different accents".

And it did have The Whale. And a really great explosion!
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <43q2thd6m3knoba2oiia9p3iqmunhpvhnv@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:29:00 -0800 (PST), David Brown
><davidnbrown80@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix
>released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years
>making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the
>original story at all. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing,
>heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad
>fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person.
>As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus
>ex machina is still completely useless. I'm genuinely curious, has
>anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film
>(ie the animated one) ???
>>https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html
>
>1) Yes, I think the 1940 Disney is the best version I have seen.
>
>2) No, I have never read the actual book. I have read references to it
>suggesting the Pinocchio descends from being mere a bad boy (but not
>bad enough to fully turn into a donkey) into being a true stinker in
>the book.
>
>3) It was stop-motion; I saw no reference to Claymation but I suppose
>clay might be shaped into wood (it has a /lot/ of wood) easily enough.
>
>4) Gepetto sends Pinocchio to school because the local Fascist tells
>him to. It is no coincidence that this same Fascist turns out to be
>running a Fascist boys' training camp (which, as you note, replaces
>Pleasure Island and features the fate of Mr Fascist Bigshot's son).
>
>5) I didn't find the animation "beautiful". Of course, that is a
>matter of taste. I would agree to "lovingly animated", however.
>
>Still, it /was/ better than an earlier one which, as a reviewer
>pointed out, "was made for children who would not notice that all the
>characters spoke English in different accents".
>
>And it did have The Whale. And a really great explosion!
>--

I remember Peter David did a take on the Disney original once to
the effect:

So, Pinocchio was last seen walking to school..

Why did Gepetto go out in a rowboat looking for him
in the ocean?

His actual point ws that if a movie is well done, we don't question
iffy plot points.

OTOH, if a movie is not well done, you question everything, as in
this Pitch Meeting for the Disney live action remake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57xcebZlQ0E
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:04:02 AM UTC-7, jack....@gmail.com wrote:

> (Just a pet peeve: I'd hate for the phrase "reads like bad fan fiction" to become a stock criticism. In this case I don't know that there was any body of work that Carlo Collodi was imitating or borrowing from. It's like using "a Mary Sue" to describe what one finds as a too-perfect or too-successful character; no, it is specificaly the author writing themselves as a perfect and successful character; Tarzan, for example is not Edgar Rice Burroughs writing a Mary Sue.)
>
> --
> -Jack

For me, talking about fan fiction is very personal, as it represents the majority of my published output and an embarrassing proportion of the best stuff I have ever written. What's gotten unfair is that people using "fan fiction" as a criticism in itself don't understand or account for how it is written. Yes, you get a lot of wish fulfillment-driven work from amateur writers including actual teenagers. You also tend to get a serialized, organic narrative style that was really the norm through the 1930s and '40s at least. In that context, Collodi's storytelling can be considered egregious but not atypical. What is noteworthy is that he ended up giving Pinocchio significant "Mary Sue" characteristics despite actively trying to make him as unlikeable as possible.

On 25 Jan 2023 17:56:13 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <43q2thd6m3knoba2oiia9p3iqmunhpvhnv@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:29:00 -0800 (PST), David Brown
>><davidnbrown80@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix
>>released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years
>>making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the
>>original story at all. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing,
>>heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad
>>fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person.
>>As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus
>>ex machina is still completely useless. I'm genuinely curious, has
>>anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film
>>(ie the animated one) ???
>>>https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html
>>
>>1) Yes, I think the 1940 Disney is the best version I have seen.
>>
>>2) No, I have never read the actual book. I have read references to it
>>suggesting the Pinocchio descends from being mere a bad boy (but not
>>bad enough to fully turn into a donkey) into being a true stinker in
>>the book.
>>
>>3) It was stop-motion; I saw no reference to Claymation but I suppose
>>clay might be shaped into wood (it has a /lot/ of wood) easily enough.
>>
>>4) Gepetto sends Pinocchio to school because the local Fascist tells
>>him to. It is no coincidence that this same Fascist turns out to be
>>running a Fascist boys' training camp (which, as you note, replaces
>>Pleasure Island and features the fate of Mr Fascist Bigshot's son).
>>
>>5) I didn't find the animation "beautiful". Of course, that is a
>>matter of taste. I would agree to "lovingly animated", however.
>>
>>Still, it /was/ better than an earlier one which, as a reviewer
>>pointed out, "was made for children who would not notice that all the
>>characters spoke English in different accents".
>>
>>And it did have The Whale. And a really great explosion!
>>--
>
>I remember Peter David did a take on the Disney original once to
>the effect:
>
> So, Pinocchio was last seen walking to school..
>
> Why did Gepetto go out in a rowboat looking for him
> in the ocean?

According to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinocchio_(1940_film)]
(if you have trouble with that link, which Agent, at least, ends at
the first parenthesis, try appending the "(1940_film)"),

"Returning home, Pinocchio and Jiminy find Geppetto’s workshop
deserted. They get a letter from the Blue Fairy in the form of a dove,
stating that Geppetto had gone out looking for Pinocchio and sailed to
Pleasure Island."

IOW, he /knew/ where Pinocchio went and he tried to get there. And
getting to an island requires a boat. Or, at least, did back at the
time in which the story is set.

Thus, the "iffy plot point" is, like most "holes" and "iffy plot
points", nothing of the kind.

And, no, we don't have to see how Gepetto finds out where he went to
know that he did. That's the reason Peter Jackson makes really long
movies: his delusion that absolutely everything must be explained.

>His actual point ws that if a movie is well done, we don't question
>iffy plot points.
>
>OTOH, if a movie is not well done, you question everything, as in
>this Pitch Meeting for the Disney live action remake:

I agree with his actual point.

Indeed, I have been known to use a variant of it on film adaptations
of books, from time to time.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 11:54:11 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2023 17:56:13 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:
>
> >In article <43q2thd6m3knoba2o...@4ax.com>,
> >Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:29:00 -0800 (PST), David Brown
> >><davidn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I just posted a review of the version of Pinocchio that Netflix
> >>released last year, which Guillermo Del Toro had to spend 14 years
> >>making. I also went into a very little detail on why I never liked the
> >>original story at all. Somewhat longer version, it's a moralizing,
> >>heavy-handed right-wing tract with a disjointed plot that reads like bad
> >>fan fiction and repeatedly hinges on Pinocchio being a terrible person.
> >>As a bonus, the massively overpowered Blue Fairy that serves as the deus
> >>ex machina is still completely useless. I'm genuinely curious, has
> >>anyone else read any version of the story independent of the Disney film
> >>(ie the animated one) ???
> >>>https://trendytroodon.blogspot.com/2023/01/animation-defenestration-other-one-from.html
> >>
> >>1) Yes, I think the 1940 Disney is the best version I have seen.
> >>
> >>2) No, I have never read the actual book. I have read references to it
> >>suggesting the Pinocchio descends from being mere a bad boy (but not
> >>bad enough to fully turn into a donkey) into being a true stinker in
> >>the book.
> >>
> >>3) It was stop-motion; I saw no reference to Claymation but I suppose
> >>clay might be shaped into wood (it has a /lot/ of wood) easily enough.
> >>
> >>4) Gepetto sends Pinocchio to school because the local Fascist tells
> >>him to. It is no coincidence that this same Fascist turns out to be
> >>running a Fascist boys' training camp (which, as you note, replaces
> >>Pleasure Island and features the fate of Mr Fascist Bigshot's son).
> >>
> >>5) I didn't find the animation "beautiful". Of course, that is a
> >>matter of taste. I would agree to "lovingly animated", however.
> >>
> >>Still, it /was/ better than an earlier one which, as a reviewer
> >>pointed out, "was made for children who would not notice that all the
> >>characters spoke English in different accents".
> >>
> >>And it did have The Whale. And a really great explosion!
> >>--
> >
> >I remember Peter David did a take on the Disney original once to
> >the effect:
> >
> > So, Pinocchio was last seen walking to school..
> >
> > Why did Gepetto go out in a rowboat looking for him
> > in the ocean?
> According to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinocchio_(1940_film)]
> (if you have trouble with that link, which Agent, at least, ends at
> the first parenthesis, try appending the "(1940_film)"),
>
> "Returning home, Pinocchio and Jiminy find Geppetto’s workshop
> deserted. They get a letter from the Blue Fairy in the form of a dove,
> stating that Geppetto had gone out looking for Pinocchio and sailed to
> Pleasure Island."
>
> IOW, he /knew/ where Pinocchio went and he tried to get there. And
> getting to an island requires a boat. Or, at least, did back at the
> time in which the story is set.
>
> Thus, the "iffy plot point" is, like most "holes" and "iffy plot
> points", nothing of the kind.
>
> And, no, we don't have to see how Gepetto finds out where he went to
> know that he did. That's the reason Peter Jackson makes really long
> movies: his delusion that absolutely everything must be explained.
> >His actual point ws that if a movie is well done, we don't question
> >iffy plot points.
> >
> >OTOH, if a movie is not well done, you question everything, as in
> >this Pitch Meeting for the Disney live action remake:
> I agree with his actual point.
>
> Indeed, I have been known to use a variant of it on film adaptations
> of books, from time to time.
> --

The Italian story made it into English by 1892. I don't think I ever
read a pre-Disney version, but I found the first translation by M A
Murray on the web.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Story_of_a_Puppet

Another Disneyfied novel I never bothered to read was _Bambi_. I was
intrigued by that book's first translator into English: former Red spy
Whittaker Chambers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker_Chambers

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/childrens/childrens-book-news/article/88287-new-bambi-translation-reveals-the-dark-origins-of-the-disney-story.html

_Bambi_ as a hidden tale about the plight of Austria's Jews
is interesting, in light of charges of anti-Semitism against
Unca Walt. [True or not]

--
Kevin R

Well, one could argue that Disney cowardly chose the easy way out by making Pinocchio almost as sweet as Jiminy Cricket. That is, Pinocchio just doesn't know any better when it comes to most of his bad behavior. So I don't blame anyone for preferring any book version where he starts off as selfish and defiant - plenty of INFANTS are like that, after all, never mind older kids.

At any rate, when I was 8 or 9, I read the well-known 1929 Carol Della Chiesa translation, illustrated by Attilio Mussino (very likely his most famous work). See here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pinocchio++mussino&rlz=1CAJMBU_enUS1042&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje-oKRgev8AhX5KlkFHZt3A0sQ_AUoAXoECAIQAw&biw=1366&bih=649&dpr=1

I think that was the first time I'd heard of the verb "deserve."

That version always refers to Pinocchio as a Marionette - yes, capitalized. It's not the only translation that does, but it's easily the most famous translation of all.

It's also a shark that eats him - and the ship. In other versions, it's a dogfish - which is silly, since dogfish sharks aren't even as big as adult humans!

And yes, it's moralistic and heavy-handed, but one could argue that in the 19th century, when populations were rapidly growing but deadly diseases and crushing poverty were still rampant, morality was the only glue that was holding civilized society together.

(Interestingly, naturalist Thornton W. Burgess' novels on animals - aimed at very young children - were also very moralistic, since they're mostly over a century old. But in the same books, Burgess had no qualms about admitting that in nature, stealing is just a way of life, and, as an animal, the only way to keep your food - or your young - is to watch sharply.)