Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals” usually don’t know about shotguns.

1. It is generally known that the most common shotgun round is 12-gauge. What isn’t widely understood is that this really means 1/12th, with “gauge” referring to a fraction of a pound (about 0.444 kg).. This converts to around 18.5 mm or .73 caliber. This means that if you get larger, the gauge goes DOWN. As we will see, they go WAY down…

2. The most common alternative gauges are 10-gauge and 20-gauge, which come out at 19.7 mm and 15.6 mm respectively. In more recent times, the 10-gauge round was deemed no better than 12-gauge in terms of shot distribution, where the 20-gauge gained ground as a lighter gun.

3. An outlier is the .410 shotgun shell, which has been calculated as 67-gauge but usually not listed as such. It is in fact partially interchangeable with .45 pistol and revolver rounds. The only smaller caliber to see significant development is 9mm, then mainly as a rimfire round much less powerful than equivalent handgun ammunition.

4. 8-gauge shotguns were a historically significant shotgun type, notably used in rifled hunting firearms as well as shotguns. The nominal caliber was 21mm or .835. Rifles of this caliber can be considered the immediate precursors of the Holland & Holland .600, which offered comparable or greater overall power with modern propellants. A modern 8-gauge rifle was featured in the film Tremors.

5. The largest gauge to see continuous use is nominal 4 gauge, applied to weapons between 23 and 26 mm. More recent variations have been standardized at just under 24 mm, more accurately 5-6 gauge. In Russia, paramilitary versions have been used to launch grenades and non-lethal projectiles.

6. The largest size of shotgun to see any use was nominal 2-gauge, generally applicable to any non-military weapon of 30mm or higher. Most such weapons were punt guns attached to boats and other mobile platforms, from which they were fired at flocks of birds for area effect. Man-portable versions loaded with solid slugs were used by African big-game hunters in very limited numbers, rarely. The weapons disappeared by the early 1900s, coinciding with both the development of more efficient 12-gauge rounds and the decline or extinction of many bird populations. They may have been the basis of the first purpose-built grenade launchers.

So, that’s the rundown on tremendously huge, as well as very small, shotguns. Is any of this useful for science fiction? Probably not outside alternate history/ steampunk fiction. Still, it’s fun!

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:

> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>

I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
Can you confirm this?

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
> >
> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> Can you confirm this?

Some notes:

The 12 in '12-gauge' does reference 1/12 of a pound, but the more
normal definition is the number of spherical balls of lead you'd have to
divide a one pound ingot into so they'd fit the bore - a 12 gauge would be
12 balls, a 4 gauge 4 balls, etc.

..22 LR shotshells are also available. They are mostly used for small pests
at close range - snakes, rats, mice etc, when minimal ricochet and penetration
damage is a priority. They can be used in rifles and pistols.
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/22-long-rifle-shotshells

Here's an example of a revolver that can fire both bullets and shotshells:
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/taurus-judge-a-revolver-that-can-fire-shotgun-shells-and-45-colt/

I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.

Note that you could load this 5 shot revolver with both .410 and Colt .45 at the
same time.

I've seen gimmicky 1911 pistols with two side-by-side barrels, but I don't think they're
practical:
https://gearsofguns.com/arsenal-firearms-double-barrel-1911-pistol-for-sale-in-the-usa/

In Europe, 'mixed hunting' is common, where you might be prepared to take pheasant,
small varmints, or deer, on one outing. Special longarms exist for this. They
are known as 'drillings' (German "threes", approximately), or 'combination guns'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun and have a mix of shotgun and rifle barrels

The only pistol I can find that has both a shotgun and pistol barrel is (ObSF, finally!) is
the TP-82, a survival gun formerly carried by Soviet Cosmonauts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82

pt

On 2/1/23 09:22, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>>>
>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>> Can you confirm this?
>
> Some notes:
>
> The 12 in '12-gauge' does reference 1/12 of a pound, but the more
> normal definition is the number of spherical balls of lead you'd have to
> divide a one pound ingot into so they'd fit the bore - a 12 gauge would be
> 12 balls, a 4 gauge 4 balls, etc.
>
> .22 LR shotshells are also available. They are mostly used for small pests
> at close range - snakes, rats, mice etc, when minimal ricochet and penetration
> damage is a priority. They can be used in rifles and pistols.
> https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/22-long-rifle-shotshells
>
> Here's an example of a revolver that can fire both bullets and shotshells:
> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/taurus-judge-a-revolver-that-can-fire-shotgun-shells-and-45-colt/
>
> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>
> Note that you could load this 5 shot revolver with both .410 and Colt .45 at the
> same time.

> pt
There is not much trouble about them because you would do more damage
throwing the pistol at someone rather than firing a .410 shell at them.
That might be a slight exaggeration but unless you are going close range
snake hunting or something you would always be better off using a .45
round so you are just left with a badly designed .45 pistol at the end
of the day.

On 2/1/2023 2:47 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>>
>
> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> Can you confirm this?

No two barrel pistols (of different sizes) that I know of since the
LeMat revolver. This was a black powder percussion pistol which
chambered either .36 or .42 ball with a 20 gauge barrel underneath.

If you want to see it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver#/media/File:Le_Mat_Revolver.jpg

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:47:55 AM UTC-7, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
> >
> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> Can you confirm this?
This really comes down to terminology. If the barrels were equal in size, what you describe would qualify as either a derringer or a howdah pistol, depending on the ludicrous factor. Either way, it's definitely on the steampunk side. As another poster has alluded, it would also be very iffy legally in a "modern" setting. If they were different calibers, you might as well add a stock, and you would have something like the Marble Gamegetter or M6 survival carbine, both fine and practical weapons for their intended applications. If one went all the way with the concept, the final product would look like a weaponized flare gun, which was tried with the Sturmpistole and not much else. I hope this gives some context on the tech.

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
>> >
>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>> Can you confirm this?
>
> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.

The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
..410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
a pistol as a destructive device.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 2023-02-01, Jay E. Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

> No two barrel pistols (of different sizes) that I know of since the
> LeMat revolver. This was a black powder percussion pistol which
> chambered either .36 or .42 ball with a 20 gauge barrel underneath.
>
> If you want to see it:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver#/media/File:Le_Mat_Revolver.jpg

It featured prominently in the recent _Westworld_ TV series:
https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Westworld_-_Season_1#LeMat_1861

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
> >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> >> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
> >> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
> >> >
> >> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> >> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
> >> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> >> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
> >> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> >> Can you confirm this?
> >
> > I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
> > snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
> a pistol as a destructive device.

People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.

Pt

On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>>>>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>>>>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>>>>>
>>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>>>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>>>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>>>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>>>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>>>> Can you confirm this?
>>>
>>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
>>> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
>> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
>> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
>> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
>> a pistol as a destructive device.
>
> People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
> saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
> subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.
>
> Pt

I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting never
attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in my shoulder
and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar shells. Perhaps it
is the technique of a rising barrel to deflect recoil but wouldn't it
require a super strong wrist and/or arm?

On 2/1/2023 7:51 PM, Titus G wrote:
> On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>>>>>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>>>>>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>>>>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>>>>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>>>>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>>>>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>>>>> Can you confirm this?
>>>>
>>>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
>>>> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>>> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
>>> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
>>> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
>>> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
>>> a pistol as a destructive device.
>>
>> People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
>> saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
>> subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.
>>
>> Pt
>
> I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting never
> attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in my shoulder
> and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar shells. Perhaps it
> is the technique of a rising barrel to deflect recoil but wouldn't it
> require a super strong wrist and/or arm?

What BATF is attempting to ban are pistol braces for AR pistol. This is
an AR with NO butt stock, just a buffer tube, and a short barrel. It is
designed to be fired with one hand which makes it legally a pistol. Some
years ago a company was approached to create a brace for a disabled vet
who had trouble holding it. BATF approved it but technically only the
one made by that company although a later memo stated as long as any
brace is not used as a stock, it is not a SBR. They are now trying to
change that.

The AR in .223/5.56 is a very low recoil firearm, barely any rise in
pistol format.

https://thril.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/pistol-stabilizing-tactical-braces-sb-tactical_feature.jpg

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 8:51:26 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> >>>>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
> >>>>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> >>>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
> >>>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> >>>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
> >>>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> >>>> Can you confirm this?
> >>>
> >>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
> >>> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
> >> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
> >> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
> >> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
> >> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
> >> a pistol as a destructive device.
> >
> > People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
> > saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
> > subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.
> >
> > Pt
> I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting never
> attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in my shoulder
> and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar shells. Perhaps it
> is the technique of a rising barrel to deflect recoil but wouldn't it
> require a super strong wrist and/or arm?

It's really difficult to compare, due to the variety of shot, slugs, and powder
loadings available, but just based on the diameters, a .410 should have
about 30% the kick of a 12 gauge, all else being equal.

The 'Judge' pistol which I described earlier still has a heck of a kick,
whether loaded with .410 or 45 Colt.

Pt

Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:trf4up$j2oi$1@dont-email.me:

> On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5,
>> rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles
>>>> Packer wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where
>>>>>> massively overpowered weapons came. This is specifically
>>>>>> covering things “normals” usually don’t know about
>>>>>> shotguns.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun
>>>>> shells. There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun
>>>>> shells or regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are
>>>>> interchangeable. You snap in the barrel you want to use.
>>>>> However, there are no pistols that have both barrels stacked
>>>>> one on top of another. Can you confirm this?
>>>>
>>>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are
>>>> around, but BATF gets very snooty about 'sawn off shotguns'
>>>> under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>>> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement
>>> that the weapon is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so
>>> a typical pistol doesn't meet the definition of a
>>> short-barreled shotgun. .410 bore is also under the one-half
>>> inch diameter limit that would classify a pistol as a
>>> destructive device.
>>
>> People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on
>> handguns. Just today I saw that the BATF has decided these are
>> Short Barreled Rifles, which are subject to substantial
>> restrictions under the NFA.
>>
>> Pt
>
> I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting
> never attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in
> my shoulder and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar
> shells. Perhaps it is the technique of a rising barrel to
> deflect recoil but wouldn't it require a super strong wrist
> and/or arm?
>
You're normally talking about a .410 shotgun shell when fired from
a pistol.

On the other hand, there is the Triple Action Thunder, which fires
..50 BMG.

https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Triple_Action_Thunder

(There have been other .50 BMG pistols, too. Because why wouldn't
there be?)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2023 06:22:41 -0800, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things
>> > “normals”
>> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
>> >
>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or regular
>> ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no pistols
>> that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>> Can you confirm this?
>
> Some notes:
>
> The 12 in '12-gauge' does reference 1/12 of a pound, but the more normal
> definition is the number of spherical balls of lead you'd have to divide
> a one pound ingot into so they'd fit the bore - a 12 gauge would be 12
> balls, a 4 gauge 4 balls, etc.
>
> .22 LR shotshells are also available. They are mostly used for small
> pests at close range - snakes, rats, mice etc, when minimal ricochet and
> penetration damage is a priority. They can be used in rifles and
> pistols.
> https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/22-long-rifle-shotshells
>
> Here's an example of a revolver that can fire both bullets and
> shotshells:
> https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/taurus-judge-a-revolver-that-can-
fire-shotgun-shells-and-45-colt/
>
> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but
> BATF gets very snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps
> this is some kind of loophole.
>
> Note that you could load this 5 shot revolver with both .410 and Colt
> .45 at the same time.
>
> I've seen gimmicky 1911 pistols with two side-by-side barrels, but I
> don't think they're practical:
> https://gearsofguns.com/arsenal-firearms-double-barrel-1911-pistol-for-
sale-in-the-usa/
>
> In Europe, 'mixed hunting' is common, where you might be prepared to
> take pheasant,
> small varmints, or deer, on one outing. Special longarms exist for this.
> They are known as 'drillings' (German "threes", approximately), or
> 'combination guns'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun and
> have a mix of shotgun and rifle barrels
>
> The only pistol I can find that has both a shotgun and pistol barrel is
> (ObSF, finally!) is the TP-82, a survival gun formerly carried by Soviet
> Cosmonauts.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82
>
> pt

OK, so there have been handguns with vertically stacked barrels.
But the one still in my mind's eye didn't look anything like any
cited here. When I was doing federal grand jury duty last year
the government witness on a Capitol Riot case put up a slide
showing a weapon supposedly possessed by one of the defendants.
It looked so implausible that I was roused from glassy-eyed
boredom. The witness made it a point to show another slide
focused on a serial number stamped on the pistol grip. Is that
where serial numbers typically are found? I should have at least
raised my hand to ask the witness to name the manufacturer, but
the opportunity passed.

On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 1:49:32 AM UTC-7, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Feb 2023 06:22:41 -0800, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer
> > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> >> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things
> >> > “normals”
> >> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
> >> >
> >> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> >> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or regular
> >> ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> >> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no pistols
> >> that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> >> Can you confirm this?
> >
> > Some notes:
> >
> > The 12 in '12-gauge' does reference 1/12 of a pound, but the more normal
> > definition is the number of spherical balls of lead you'd have to divide
> > a one pound ingot into so they'd fit the bore - a 12 gauge would be 12
> > balls, a 4 gauge 4 balls, etc.
> >
> > .22 LR shotshells are also available. They are mostly used for small
> > pests at close range - snakes, rats, mice etc, when minimal ricochet and
> > penetration damage is a priority. They can be used in rifles and
> > pistols.
> > https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/22-long-rifle-shotshells
> >
> > Here's an example of a revolver that can fire both bullets and
> > shotshells:
> > https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/taurus-judge-a-revolver-that-can-
> fire-shotgun-shells-and-45-colt/
> >
> > I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but
> > BATF gets very snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps
> > this is some kind of loophole.
> >
> > Note that you could load this 5 shot revolver with both .410 and Colt
> > .45 at the same time.
> >
> > I've seen gimmicky 1911 pistols with two side-by-side barrels, but I
> > don't think they're practical:
> > https://gearsofguns.com/arsenal-firearms-double-barrel-1911-pistol-for-
> sale-in-the-usa/
> >
> > In Europe, 'mixed hunting' is common, where you might be prepared to
> > take pheasant,
> > small varmints, or deer, on one outing. Special longarms exist for this..
> > They are known as 'drillings' (German "threes", approximately), or
> > 'combination guns'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun and
> > have a mix of shotgun and rifle barrels
> >
> > The only pistol I can find that has both a shotgun and pistol barrel is
> > (ObSF, finally!) is the TP-82, a survival gun formerly carried by Soviet
> > Cosmonauts.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82
> >
> > pt
> OK, so there have been handguns with vertically stacked barrels.
> But the one still in my mind's eye didn't look anything like any
> cited here. When I was doing federal grand jury duty last year
> the government witness on a Capitol Riot case put up a slide
> showing a weapon supposedly possessed by one of the defendants.
> It looked so implausible that I was roused from glassy-eyed
> boredom. The witness made it a point to show another slide
> focused on a serial number stamped on the pistol grip. Is that
> where serial numbers typically are found? I should have at least
> raised my hand to ask the witness to name the manufacturer, but
> the opportunity passed.
What you're describing still sounds to me like a .22/ .410 combination weapon, which I listed a couple examples of above. Some of these, like the Gamegetter, could be fired with the stock folded or removed, but again, there are serious legal issues with permanently modifying them. I defend these weapons as I have here because they get quite a bit of criticism from gun nut types simply for not being good at things they were never intended to do. Even with the shotgun barrel configured to fire .45 rounds, they are small-game hunting firearms that would only be considered for self-defense in a dire emergency. I have frequently portrayed them in my fiction as shorthand for characters who are either non-threatening or extremely confident in their abilities.

On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 9:35:26 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
> On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 1:49:32 AM UTC-7, Charles Packer wrote:
> > On Wed, 01 Feb 2023 06:22:41 -0800, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer
> > > wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
> > >> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things
> > >> > “normals”
> > >> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
> > >> >
> > >> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
> > >> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or regular
> > >> ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
> > >> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no pistols
> > >> that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
> > >> Can you confirm this?
> > >
> > > Some notes:
> > >
> > > The 12 in '12-gauge' does reference 1/12 of a pound, but the more normal
> > > definition is the number of spherical balls of lead you'd have to divide
> > > a one pound ingot into so they'd fit the bore - a 12 gauge would be 12
> > > balls, a 4 gauge 4 balls, etc.
> > >
> > > .22 LR shotshells are also available. They are mostly used for small
> > > pests at close range - snakes, rats, mice etc, when minimal ricochet and
> > > penetration damage is a priority. They can be used in rifles and
> > > pistols.
> > > https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/22-long-rifle-shotshells
> > >
> > > Here's an example of a revolver that can fire both bullets and
> > > shotshells:
> > > https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/taurus-judge-a-revolver-that-can-
> > fire-shotgun-shells-and-45-colt/
> > >
> > > I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but
> > > BATF gets very snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps
> > > this is some kind of loophole.
> > >
> > > Note that you could load this 5 shot revolver with both .410 and Colt
> > > .45 at the same time.
> > >
> > > I've seen gimmicky 1911 pistols with two side-by-side barrels, but I
> > > don't think they're practical:
> > > https://gearsofguns.com/arsenal-firearms-double-barrel-1911-pistol-for-
> > sale-in-the-usa/
> > >
> > > In Europe, 'mixed hunting' is common, where you might be prepared to
> > > take pheasant,
> > > small varmints, or deer, on one outing. Special longarms exist for this.
> > > They are known as 'drillings' (German "threes", approximately), or
> > > 'combination guns'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun and
> > > have a mix of shotgun and rifle barrels
> > >
> > > The only pistol I can find that has both a shotgun and pistol barrel is
> > > (ObSF, finally!) is the TP-82, a survival gun formerly carried by Soviet
> > > Cosmonauts.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82
> > >
> > > pt
> > OK, so there have been handguns with vertically stacked barrels.
> > But the one still in my mind's eye didn't look anything like any
> > cited here. When I was doing federal grand jury duty last year
> > the government witness on a Capitol Riot case put up a slide
> > showing a weapon supposedly possessed by one of the defendants.
> > It looked so implausible that I was roused from glassy-eyed
> > boredom. The witness made it a point to show another slide
> > focused on a serial number stamped on the pistol grip. Is that
> > where serial numbers typically are found? I should have at least
> > raised my hand to ask the witness to name the manufacturer, but
> > the opportunity passed.
> What you're describing still sounds to me like a .22/ .410 combination weapon, which I listed a couple examples of above. Some of these, like the Gamegetter, could be fired with the stock folded or removed, but again, there are serious legal issues with permanently modifying them. I defend these weapons as I have here because they get quite a bit of criticism from gun nut types simply for not being good at things they were never intended to do. Even with the shotgun barrel configured to fire .45 rounds, they are small-game hunting firearms that would only be considered for self-defense in a dire emergency. I have frequently portrayed them in my fiction as shorthand for characters who are either non-threatening or extremely confident in their abilities.

Here's a whole page of 22/410 combination weapons. They're all set up to be
legal, so the 'pistol' types have freakishly long barrels.
https://www.guns.com/news/review/22410-combos

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 15:25:00 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>> >> > overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>> >> > usually don’t know about shotguns.
>> >> >
>> >> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>> >> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>> >> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>> >> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>> >> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>> >> Can you confirm this?
>> >
>> > I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
>> > snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
>> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
>> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
>> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
>> a pistol as a destructive device.
>
>People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
>saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
>subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.

Something the courts will eventually decide the validity of, I
suspect.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 9:58:03 PM UTC-7, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:trf4up$j2oi$1...@dont-email.me:
> > On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5,
> >> rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >>> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles
> >>>> Packer wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where
> >>>>>> massively overpowered weapons came. This is specifically
> >>>>>> covering things “normals” usually don’t know about
> >>>>>> shotguns.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun
> >>>>> shells. There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun
> >>>>> shells or regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are
> >>>>> interchangeable. You snap in the barrel you want to use.
> >>>>> However, there are no pistols that have both barrels stacked
> >>>>> one on top of another. Can you confirm this?
> >>>>
> >>>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are
> >>>> around, but BATF gets very snooty about 'sawn off shotguns'
> >>>> under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
> >>> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement
> >>> that the weapon is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so
> >>> a typical pistol doesn't meet the definition of a
> >>> short-barreled shotgun. .410 bore is also under the one-half
> >>> inch diameter limit that would classify a pistol as a
> >>> destructive device.
> >>
> >> People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on
> >> handguns. Just today I saw that the BATF has decided these are
> >> Short Barreled Rifles, which are subject to substantial
> >> restrictions under the NFA.
> >>
> >> Pt
> >
> > I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting
> > never attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in
> > my shoulder and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar
> > shells. Perhaps it is the technique of a rising barrel to
> > deflect recoil but wouldn't it require a super strong wrist
> > and/or arm?
> >
> You're normally talking about a .410 shotgun shell when fired from
> a pistol.
>
> On the other hand, there is the Triple Action Thunder, which fires
> .50 BMG.
>
> https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Triple_Action_Thunder
>
> (There have been other .50 BMG pistols, too. Because why wouldn't
> there be?)
>
> --
> Terry Austin
>
> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
> Lynn:
> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
>
>
> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
> -- David Bilek
>
> Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
I tried coming up with specs for a 50 BMG-based revolver for my Walking Dead/ Exotroopers series. I decided it was marginally more sane to use the Soviet "Dushka" equivalent, which among other things has a slightly heavier bullet. (I also had specs for a rocket-assisted round...) The fundamental problem is that a barrel short enough for handgun proportions is going to leave a lot more unburned powder. What might marginally work is to repurpose one of a few much less powerful rounds evolved from the 50, like a tracer round used for sighting the 106mm recoilless gun. Even in an environment with exoskeletons in play, you're better off with an actual rifle.

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 8:51:26 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
>> On 2/02/23 12:25, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> >> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:47:55 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
>> >>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:04:47 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively
>> >>>>> overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals”
>> >>>>> usually don’t know about shotguns.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> I didn't know that there are pistols that can fire shotgun shells.
>> >>>> There are even pistols that can fire either shotgun shells or
>> >>>> regular ammo. They come with two barrels that are interchangeable.
>> >>>> You snap in the barrel you want to use. However, there are no
>> >>>> pistols that have both barrels stacked one on top of another.
>> >>>> Can you confirm this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I really wonder about the legal status - clearly these are around, but BATF gets very
>> >>> snooty about 'sawn off shotguns' under 26 inches. Perhaps this is some kind of loophole.
>> >> The legal definition of "shotgun" includes the requirement that the weapon
>> >> is intended to be fired from the shoulder, so a typical pistol doesn't meet
>> >> the definition of a short-barreled shotgun.
>> >> .410 bore is also under the one-half inch diameter limit that would classify
>> >> a pistol as a destructive device.
>> >
>> > People do put 'shoulder braces' effectively stocks, on handguns. Just today I
>> > saw that the BATF has decided these are Short Barreled Rifles, which are
>> > subject to substantial restrictions under the NFA.
>> >
>> > Pt
>> I haven't handled a shotgun for a decade but when duck shooting never
>> attempted to fire one without the butt firmly embedded in my shoulder
>> and can't imagine a hand held pistol firing similar shells. Perhaps it
>> is the technique of a rising barrel to deflect recoil but wouldn't it
>> require a super strong wrist and/or arm?
>
> It's really difficult to compare, due to the variety of shot, slugs, and powder
> loadings available, but just based on the diameters, a .410 should have
> about 30% the kick of a 12 gauge, all else being equal.

I'd expectly a little less than half for equivalent loads. Typical .410 target
load is 1/2 oz at 1200 fps, 12 gauge is 1 1/8 oz at around 1300.

> The 'Judge' pistol which I described earlier still has a heck of a kick,
> whether loaded with .410 or 45 Colt.

The weight and design of the pistol makes a huge difference. My wife's
favorite is a S&W 460XVR firing a 260 gr (0.6 oz) bullet at 2000 fps. The
recoil is substantial but not painful, although the ammunition cost is both.
OTOH that's a 4.5 pound pistol with a muzzle brake...I've no desire to try it
in their (cancelled) snubnose. The .45 Colt, which can be fired in the same
pistol, has very little recoil.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 1/31/23 14:04, David Brown wrote:
> Here’s a follow-up to an earlier thread/ rant where massively overpowered weapons came. This is specifically covering things “normals” usually don’t know about shotguns.
>
> 1. It is generally known that the most common shotgun round is 12-gauge. What isn’t widely understood is that this really means 1/12th, with “gauge” referring to a fraction of a pound (about 0.444 kg). This converts to around 18.5 mm or .73 caliber. This means that if you get larger, the gauge goes DOWN. As we will see, they go WAY down…

[stuff deleted]

> David N. Brown
> Mesa, Arizona

I haven't actually seen a 10 gauge shotgun, but they still make Ammo for
them and it can be found on line. I never saw it at Big 5.

You mentioned 10, 12, and 20 gauge as well as the .410. The 16 and 28
gauge shotguns used to be more popular, but not so much any more. My dad
bought himself a 16 gauge bolt action from Sears back in the 50's. I
have it now, but I think they were recalled sometime back in the '90s
due to some problems with the barrels. We also have a 1926 Winchester
Model 12 pump action 12 gauge that belonged to my grandfather. I haven't
shot it in many years. It was also restricted as to the length of shells
it could use and should not use magnums.
--
Dave Scruggs

On 2/1/2023 10:57 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> On the other hand, there is the Triple Action Thunder, which fires
> .50 BMG.
>
> https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Triple_Action_Thunder
>
> (There have been other .50 BMG pistols, too. Because why wouldn't
> there be?)

The only production .50 BMG pistol that I know of is the Noreen Firearms
ULR. That is made-to-order only though. There are 15 or so in .50 pistol
cartridges such as the S&W Magnum, AE and a few other.