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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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* What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?artyw2@yahoo.com
+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Andrew McDowell
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Quadibloc
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
|  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | ||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | | ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | |+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | | | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | | | | |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | | | | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | | | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?The Horny Goat
| | | | | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | | |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Woodward
| | |   |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||   `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||    `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||     +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||     `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?rkshullat
| | |      ||      || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||+* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dorothy J Heydt
| | |      ||      ||   |||+- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   |||`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   || `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   ||  |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   ||  | `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      ||      ||   ||  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   |`* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?pete...@gmail.com
| | |      ||      ||   | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Paul S Person
| | |      ||      ||   |  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      ||   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Jay E. Morris
| | |      ||      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      ||      `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?William Hyde
| | |      ||       `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lynn McGuire
| | |      |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| | |      `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?WolfFan
| | +* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?James Nicoll
| | |`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lenona
| | +- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Robert Carnegie
| | `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Joy Beeson
| |  `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Magewolf
| |   `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Dimensional Traveler
| `* Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?David Johnston
|  `- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Scott Lurndal
`- Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?Lee Gleason

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What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<785b72aa-ac87-42da-9b87-510dee6db0b5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 18:06 UTC

We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.

We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.

We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.

Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

pt

[1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<6uqNL.1019486$Tcw8.986085@fx10.iad>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: Scott Lurndal - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 18:42 UTC

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
>We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
>We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.

I suspect it may be more like a hysteresis loop, where population
will have boom and bust cycles, if the peak isn't a demographic
collapse, the horseman will ride causing a
collapse back to more primitive times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_stable_state

>Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

Does _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ count as an example
of attemping to reverse a collapse, regardless of cause?

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<k6mrseFcc28U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ...@ednolan (ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: 6 Mar 2023 19:05:50 GMT
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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:05 UTC

In article <6uqNL.1019486$Tcw8.986085@fx10.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>>
>>We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>>good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>>or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>>left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>>
>>We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>>having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>>a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>>elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>>entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
>I suspect it may be more like a hysteresis loop, where population
>will have boom and bust cycles, if the peak isn't a demographic
>collapse, the horseman will ride causing a
>collapse back to more primitive times.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_stable_state
>
>
>>Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
>Does _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ count as an example
>of attemping to reverse a collapse, regardless of cause?
>

_Raiders From The Rings_?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<k6ms4rFcijaU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ...@ednolan (ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:10 UTC

In article <k6mrseFcc28U1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <6uqNL.1019486$Tcw8.986085@fx10.iad>,
>Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>>>
>>>We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>>>good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>>>or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>>>left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>>>
>>>We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>>>having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>>>a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>>>elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>>>entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>>
>>I suspect it may be more like a hysteresis loop, where population
>>will have boom and bust cycles, if the peak isn't a demographic
>>collapse, the horseman will ride causing a
>>collapse back to more primitive times.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_stable_state
>>
>>
>>>Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>
>>Does _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ count as an example
>>of attemping to reverse a collapse, regardless of cause?
>>
>
>_Raiders From The Rings_?
>--

"Not With a Bang"

"A Boy & His Dog"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<fdc9031d-28ec-410a-a421-c24fec111b43n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: art...@yahoo.com (artyw2@yahoo.com)
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 by: artyw2@yahoo.com - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:37 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 1:06:04 PM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

Maybe not quite what you are looking for, but in Patricia Anthony Brother Termite, the birth rate is declining and aliens are hoping that nobody notices (because, IIRC, they are behind it, though I can not remember how they did it).

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:41:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:41 UTC

Charles Stross touches on the issue in Saturn's Children: the
solution turns out to be to let the human population drop to
zero, after which the birthrate stops decreasing.

Unsuprisingly, the theme comes up in various Japanese works.

You may discover Western readers find it very hard to distinguish
between populations falling because of people choosing to have
fewer children, population falling because people cannot have
children, and populations falling because of some calamity completely
unrelated to what you're talking about. Enjoy!
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 19:42 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:06:04 PM UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
> pt
>
> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
This triggers memories of Asimov's "The Naked Sun" - it's not a very good match to what you are asking for, but the world there has drastically reduced direct interactions between human beings - a bit like a permanent covid lockdown. Wikipedia confirms that they have a strictly limited population, but I can't remember to what extent this is enforced and to what extent this is a natural consequence of their distancing from each other.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 20:12 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
what you're looking for.

John Savard

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 15:30:00 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 21:30 UTC

On 3/6/2023 12:06 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
> pt
>
> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.

"Fallen Angels" by Niven and Pournelle

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 23:15 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 4:30:01 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/6/2023 12:06 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
> >
> > We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> > good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> > or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> > left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
> >
> > We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> > having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> > a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> > elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> > entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
> >
> > Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> >
> > pt
> >
> > [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> > this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
> "Fallen Angels" by Niven and Pournelle

And Flynn.

William Hyde

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 00:16 UTC

In article <6922916c-7167-4c1c-a2aa-88251aa189a2n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 4:30:01 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/6/2023 12:06 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with
>overpopulation.
>> >
>> > We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>> > good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>> > or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>> > left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>> >
>> > We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>> > having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>> > a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>> > elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>> > entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>> >
>> > Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>> >
>> > pt
>> >
>> > [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
>> > this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
>> "Fallen Angels" by Niven and Pournelle
>
>And Flynn.
>
>William Hyde
>

Well, I mean, it goes without saying that he's in!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 00:53 UTC

On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 20:12:10 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
> what you're looking for.
>
> John Savard

And _Children of Men_.

In a different situation, I don't remember which exactly,
but I may have recent-ish-ly read one or more books
where a new human colony planet takes making babies
quickly (in the old fashioned way) as a priority. Possibly
in Jack Campbell's "The Genesis Fleet", in which several
planets are newly or recently settled. But I don't remember.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: davidjoh...@yahoo.com (David Johnston)
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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 18:09:17 -0700
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 by: David Johnston - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 01:09 UTC

On 2023-03-06 11:06 a.m., pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with
> overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off
> real good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease,
> zombies or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few
> viewpoint humans left, often with an implication that they will
> repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of a
> shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on
> itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
> pt
>
> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't
> have this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the
> parameters.

Demographic decline to human extinction is a feature in a several of
several science fiction manga reflecting the fact that it looks like the
Japanese population will be reduced to less than half by the end of the
century. But I've only seen one where anyone is trying to fight it.

Marry Me!

> Civil servant Sinn gets a huge surprise on his 29th birthday when he
> is chosen as the first subject of an experimental new law to marry
> someone he's never met. His marriage partner is Mari, a recluse who
> has yet to experience the small joys of life. Now the two must
> navigate their relationship as a married couple, all while proving --
> or disproving -- that the law will benefit the greater good of
> society.

It is sweet but dull. Also not really science fiction.

Similarly Clifford Simak had his own gentle extinction of humanity but
no stories about trying to fight it.

What you do is in science fiction is infertility plagues and people do
try to fight those as in PD James's Children of Men, Janet Morris's High
Couch of Silistra, The Johnson Project by by Maggie Spencer, Bumped by
Megan McCafferty, and The Handmaid's Tale

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:56 UTC

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 2023-03-06 11:06 a.m., pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with
>> overpopulation.
>>
>> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off
>> real good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease,
>> zombies or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few
>> viewpoint humans left, often with an implication that they will
>> repopulate the Earth.
>>
>> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of a
>> shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on
>> itself.
>>
>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>
>> pt
>>
>> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't
>> have this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the
>> parameters.
>
>Demographic decline to human extinction is a feature in a several of
>several science fiction manga reflecting the fact that it looks like the
>Japanese population will be reduced to less than half by the end of the
>century. But I've only seen one where anyone is trying to fight it.
>
>Marry Me!
>
>> Civil servant Sinn gets a huge surprise on his 29th birthday when he
>> is chosen as the first subject of an experimental new law to marry
>> someone he's never met. His marriage partner is Mari, a recluse who
>> has yet to experience the small joys of life. Now the two must
>> navigate their relationship as a married couple, all while proving --
>> or disproving -- that the law will benefit the greater good of
>> society.
>
>It is sweet but dull. Also not really science fiction.
>
>Similarly Clifford Simak had his own gentle extinction of humanity but
>no stories about trying to fight it.

How about when NYC Mayor Amalfi pressed the restart button?

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:57:27 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Public Access Networks Corp.
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 by: James Nicoll - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:57 UTC

Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
just had a piece:

https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/

As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
Bomb... which it does.

It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
pretexts.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:08 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> just had a piece:
>
> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/

A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
blow his own horn:

https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/

> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> Bomb... which it does.
>
> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> pretexts.

Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
choice than it is today?

pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:21 UTC

On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>> just had a piece:
>>
>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>
> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> blow his own horn:
>
> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>
>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>> Bomb... which it does.
>>
>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>> pretexts.
>
> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> choice than it is today?
>
At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
non-adopted child they have.

Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
no interracial couples need apply.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<crse0ihn1qtaf213uu7bct4ucipptqunq1@4ax.com>

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 09:25:51 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:25 UTC

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 11:42:55 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:06:04?PM UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>>
>> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>>
>> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>>
>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>
>> pt
>>
>> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
>> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
>This triggers memories of Asimov's "The Naked Sun" - it's not a very good match to what you are asking for, but the world there has drastically reduced direct interactions between human beings - a bit like a permanent covid lockdown. Wikipedia confirms that they have a strictly limited population, but I can't remember to what extent this is enforced and to what extent this is a natural consequence of their distancing from each other.

IIRC, one of the later books reveals that the occupants were ...
hermaphrodites.

Meeting other people was /not/ required.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:46 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 12:21:37 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> >> just had a piece:
> >>
> >> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> >
> > A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> > own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> > blow his own horn:
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> >
> >> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> >> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> >> Bomb... which it does.
> >>
> >> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> >> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> >> pretexts.
> >
> > Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> > choice than it is today?
> >
> At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
> the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
> married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
> non-adopted child they have.
>
> Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
> he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
> no interracial couples need apply.

Trying? It's already baked in. Home ownership is required to pay property
taxes, and while 74% of white non hispanics own houses, only 44%
of blacks do.

I'd rather see something like '$1500/month grant to every child under 18'.

Pt

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Message-ID: <rr5z38.zq0@kithrup.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:52:20 GMT
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:52 UTC

In article <crse0ihn1qtaf213uu7bct4ucipptqunq1@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 11:42:55 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
><mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:06:04?PM UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>>>
>>> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>>> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>>> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>>> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>>>
>>> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>>> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>>> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>>> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>>> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>>>
>>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>>
>>> pt
>>>
>>> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
>>> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
>>This triggers memories of Asimov's "The Naked Sun" - it's not a very
>good match to what you are asking for, but the world there has
>drastically reduced direct interactions between human beings - a bit
>like a permanent covid lockdown. Wikipedia confirms that they have a
>strictly limited population, but I can't remember to what extent this is
>enforced and to what extent this is a natural consequence of their
>distancing from each other.
>
>IIRC, one of the later books reveals that the occupants were ...
>hermaphrodites.
>
>Meeting other people was /not/ required.

(Hal Heydt)
IIRC, they became hermaphrodites long after "The Naked Sun".

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

<22aabab8-94c5-4b77-b3cb-c8a3d00127ecn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:29 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 5:25:57 PM UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 11:42:55 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:06:04?PM UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
> >>
> >> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> >> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> >> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> >> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
> >>
> >> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> >> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> >> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> >> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> >> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
> >>
> >> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> >>
> >> pt
> >>
> >> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> >> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
> >This triggers memories of Asimov's "The Naked Sun" - it's not a very good match to what you are asking for, but the world there has drastically reduced direct interactions between human beings - a bit like a permanent covid lockdown. Wikipedia confirms that they have a strictly limited population, but I can't remember to what extent this is enforced and to what extent this is a natural consequence of their distancing from each other.
> IIRC, one of the later books reveals that the occupants were ...
> hermaphrodites.
>
> Meeting other people was /not/ required.
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."
I suppose you might consider "Ethan of Athos" (Bujold) as related in some way. Perhaps the most relevant part is the background worldbuilding - since the population in question does not have a strong maternal instinct, people get social credit for raising children.

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:55:17 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Public Access Networks Corp.
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 by: James Nicoll - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:55 UTC

In article <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd-a1fe-0630968d0439n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>> just had a piece:
>>
>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>
>A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>blow his own horn:
>
>https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>
>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>> Bomb... which it does.
>>
>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>> pretexts.
>
>Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>choice than it is today?
>
The state could subsidize them but that's communism. A more
acceptable approach would be groinal pain clamps that deliver
a slowly increasing discomfort to adults who have not have new-
borns in, oh, let's say the last 8 months. Start at six pain
units (where ten will trigger a lethal stroke) and then add
one unit per month. Plus of course tax breaks for the rich
but that goes without saying.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 21:45 UTC

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:53:46 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 20:12:10 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> > There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
> > what you're looking for.
> >
> > John Savard
> And _Children of Men_.

I think you mean "Greybeard".

William Hyde

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 23:04 UTC

On 3/7/2023 3:45 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:53:46 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 20:12:10 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>>> There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
>>> what you're looking for.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>> And _Children of Men_.
>
> I think you mean "Greybeard".
>
> William Hyde

Is he not talking about this book ? "A modern science fiction classic
from an acclaimed bestselling author: The year is 2021. No child has
been born for twenty-five years. The human race faces extinction."
https://www.amazon.com/Children-Men-P-D-James/dp/0307275434/

I saw the movie but I did not read the book.

Lynn

Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

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Subject: Re: What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 01:24 UTC

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:04:08 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 3:45 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:53:46 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 20:12:10 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> >>> There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
> >>> what you're looking for.
> >>>
> >>> John Savard
> >> And _Children of Men_.
> >
> > I think you mean "Greybeard".
> >
> > William Hyde
> Is he not talking about this book ? "A modern science fiction classic
> from an acclaimed bestselling author: The year is 2021. No child has
> been born for twenty-five years. The human race faces extinction."
> https://www.amazon.com/Children-Men-P-D-James/dp/0307275434/
>
> I saw the movie but I did not read the book.

I greatly admire P.D. James.

But Aldiss did it first, and the similarities are striking - going beyond
the premise and location.

Except that she put in some christian mysticism while Aldiss stuck
to SF.

William Hyde

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