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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: OT - The old ones built it....

SubjectAuthor
* OT - The old ones built it....Andrew McDowell
+- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Bill Gill
+- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Scott Lurndal
+- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Dorothy J Heydt
+* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Lynn McGuire
|`- Re: OT - The old ones built it....pete...@gmail.com
+* Re: OT - The old ones built it....BCFD36
|+* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Quadibloc
||`- Re: OT - The old ones built it....BCFD36
|+* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Lynn McGuire
||`* Re: OT - The old ones built it....pete...@gmail.com
|| `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Lynn McGuire
||  +* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Scott Lurndal
||  |+* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Chris Buckley
||  ||`- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Scott Lurndal
||  |`* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Titus G
||  | `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Scott Lurndal
||  |  `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....The Horny Goat
||  |   `- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Andrew McDowell
||  +* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Andrew McDowell
||  |`- Re: OT - The old ones built it....pete...@gmail.com
||  `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Paul S Person
||   `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....pete...@gmail.com
||    `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Andrew McDowell
||     `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....John Halpenny
||      +- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Robert Woodward
||      `- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Hamish Laws
|+- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Dorothy J Heydt
|`- Re: OT - The old ones built it....The Horny Goat
`* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Quadibloc
 `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Lynn McGuire
  `* Re: OT - The old ones built it....Dimensional Traveler
   `- Re: OT - The old ones built it....Lynn McGuire

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OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: OT - The old ones built it....
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:04 UTC

From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/

Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<tua5mv$ufts$1@dont-email.me>

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From: billne...@cox.net (Bill Gill)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 08:22:25 -0600
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 by: Bill Gill - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:22 UTC

On 3/8/2023 1:04 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>
> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.

A few years ago I took a C++ course at the local community
college. The teacher was an engineer from a company that
builds high end flight simulators. He told us that they
still use Fortran for some of their programming, particularly
the mathematics section. Fortran was originally developed
for math, the name is concocted from the phrase Formula
Translator.

Bill

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: Scott Lurndal - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 16:01 UTC

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> writes:
>From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-ma=
>rch-2023/
>
>Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, =
>the engine management software runs Fortran =E2=80=93 an ancient programmin=
>g language with very few engineers left who understand it.

There is quite a bit of active Fortran development still being done, and
it's not difficult for any good programmer to learn Fortran if necessary.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Message-ID: <rr7n0q.1DCI@kithrup.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 16:26:50 GMT
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 16:26 UTC

In article <84856b94-df9b-4ad6-982f-416f633673adn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>From
>https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>
>Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
>programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.

(Hal Heydt)
FORTRAN has been around teh block a few times, but one can still
(easily) get FORTAN compilers. Last I looked there were at least
two that will run on Raspberry Pis.

I suppose that FORTRAN might be a bit difficult for a programmer
that grew up on Python or Java, but the reverse can also be the
case.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 18:52 UTC

On 3/8/2023 1:04 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>
> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.

I and one of my employees write Fortran every day.

Lynn

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: bcf...@cruzio.com (BCFD36)
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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: BCFD36 - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:08 UTC

On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>
> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.

My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
had to give to the guy behind the counter.

When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:29 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:04:36 AM UTC-7, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/

> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an
> ancient programming language with very few engineers left who
> understand it.

Although it certainly is true that Fortran is not as widely used as it
once was, it is not a language no longer actively supported by computer
manufacturers.

It is _still_ the language of choice for scientific computing. Fortran 90
and its descendants are used with supercomputers - which is, no doubt,
why it is not as visible as languages like Pascal and C, that are used with
microcomputers.

John Savard

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:31 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 1:08:38 PM UTC-7, BCFD36 wrote:
> The
> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!

Was a compiler available that supported a newer version of
Fortran with a CASE statement in it?

John Savard

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:34:24 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:34 UTC

On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>  From
>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>
>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
>> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
>
> My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
> had to give to the guy behind the counter.
>
> When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
> using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
> had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
> The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!

I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
compiler has added support for them.
https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables

As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
support them.

Lynn

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:51:05 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:51 UTC

On 3/8/2023 2:29 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:04:36 AM UTC-7, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>
>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an
>> ancient programming language with very few engineers left who
>> understand it.
>
> Although it certainly is true that Fortran is not as widely used as it
> once was, it is not a language no longer actively supported by computer
> manufacturers.
>
> It is _still_ the language of choice for scientific computing. Fortran 90
> and its descendants are used with supercomputers - which is, no doubt,
> why it is not as visible as languages like Pascal and C, that are used with
> microcomputers.
>
> John Savard

Intel supports two Fortran compilers, it's old classic Fortran compiler,
iFort, and the new Fortran compiler from CLANG. Intel just freewared
both compilers in 2022 so I am wondering how long they will be
supported. The other major Fortran compiler is the open source GFortran
from GNU. Of course, many old software programs still use the old F77
compiler on Unix.

Most new scientific software development is performed using C++ and Python.

Lynn

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 22:14 UTC

On 3/8/2023 12:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 2:29 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:04:36 AM UTC-7, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>  From
>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>
>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an
>>> ancient programming language with very few engineers left who
>>> understand it.
>>
>> Although it certainly is true that Fortran is not as widely used as it
>> once was, it is not a language no longer actively supported by computer
>> manufacturers.
>>
>> It is _still_ the language of choice for scientific computing. Fortran 90
>> and its descendants are used with supercomputers - which is, no doubt,
>> why it is not as visible as languages like Pascal and C, that are used
>> with
>> microcomputers.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> Intel supports two Fortran compilers, it's old classic Fortran compiler,
> iFort, and the new Fortran compiler from CLANG.

Well that's a name that inspires confidence. :P

>  Intel just freewared
> both compilers in 2022 so I am wondering how long they will be
> supported.  The other major Fortran compiler is the open source GFortran
> from GNU.  Of course, many old software programs still use the old F77
> compiler on Unix.
>
> Most new scientific software development is performed using C++ and Python.
>
> Lynn
>

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: BCFD36 - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 22:38 UTC

On 3/8/23 12:31, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 1:08:38 PM UTC-7, BCFD36 wrote:
>> The
>> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
>
> Was a compiler available that supported a newer version of
> Fortran with a CASE statement in it?
>
> John Savard

Yes, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer (Retired, mostly)

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:04:23 -0600
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 23:04 UTC

On 3/8/2023 4:14 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 12:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/8/2023 2:29 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:04:36 AM UTC-7, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>>  From
>>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>>
>>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an
>>>> ancient programming language with very few engineers left who
>>>> understand it.
>>>
>>> Although it certainly is true that Fortran is not as widely used as it
>>> once was, it is not a language no longer actively supported by computer
>>> manufacturers.
>>>
>>> It is _still_ the language of choice for scientific computing.
>>> Fortran 90
>>> and its descendants are used with supercomputers - which is, no doubt,
>>> why it is not as visible as languages like Pascal and C, that are
>>> used with
>>> microcomputers.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>> Intel supports two Fortran compilers, it's old classic Fortran
>> compiler, iFort, and the new Fortran compiler from CLANG.
>
> Well that's a name that inspires confidence.  :P
>
>>   Intel just freewared both compilers in 2022 so I am wondering how
>> long they will be supported.  The other major Fortran compiler is the
>> open source GFortran from GNU.  Of course, many old software programs
>> still use the old F77 compiler on Unix.
>>
>> Most new scientific software development is performed using C++ and
>> Python.
>>
>> Lynn

Sorry, I misspoke. It is not CLANG, it is LLVM.
https://www.llvm.org/

Specifically, the FLANG project.
https://github.com/flang-compiler/flang

Lynn

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 05:39 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 1:52:48 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 1:04 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > From https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
> >
> > Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
> I and one of my employees write Fortran every day.

I learned it in college, but haven't used it since.

But then, by some standards, I'm ancient.

Pt

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 05:42 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> > On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> >> From
> >> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
> >>
> >> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
> >> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
> >> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
> >
> > My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
> > had to give to the guy behind the counter.
> >
> > When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
> > using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
> > had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
> > The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
> > damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
> I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
> calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
> lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
> compiler has added support for them.
>
> https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables
>
> As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
> gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
> support them.

Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
emulate computed gotos.

Pt

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:56 UTC

On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
>>> On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>> From
>>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>>>
>>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
>>>> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
>>>
>>> My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
>>> had to give to the guy behind the counter.
>>>
>>> When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
>>> using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
>>> had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
>>> The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
>>> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
>> I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
>> calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
>> lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
>> compiler has added support for them.
>>
>> https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables
>>
>> As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
>> gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
>> support them.
>
> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
> emulate computed gotos.
>
> Pt

That is just ... wrong.

Lynn

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 22:52 UTC

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>> emulate computed gotos.
>>
>> Pt
>
>That is just ... wrong.

Perfectly normal for small memory systems of that era.

The Burroughs B300 had 3-operand instructions, but not all
instructions used all three operands. The programmer was
encouraged to use the unused (and ignored by the
CPU) operands for utility and/or constant storage.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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 by: Chris Buckley - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:04 UTC

On 2023-03-09, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>>> emulate computed gotos.
>>>
>>> Pt
>>
>>That is just ... wrong.
>
> Perfectly normal for small memory systems of that era.
>
> The Burroughs B300 had 3-operand instructions, but not all
> instructions used all three operands. The programmer was
> encouraged to use the unused (and ignored by the
> CPU) operands for utility and/or constant storage.

"Encouraged" seems a bit strong, but definitely "allowed to when
required". Programming small memory systems was a different world
that didn't quite fit Dijkstra's model!

Chris

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: Titus G - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:18 UTC

On 10/03/23 11:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>>> emulate computed gotos.
>>>
>>> Pt
>>
>> That is just ... wrong.
>
> Perfectly normal for small memory systems of that era.
>
> The Burroughs B300 had 3-operand instructions, but not all
> instructions used all three operands. The programmer was
> encouraged to use the unused (and ignored by the
> CPU) operands for utility and/or constant storage.

That was fun but necessary because of limited memory mainly taken up by
the loaded program. I don't remember the Burroughs model my bureau
employers had but it was about 1970, input from punched cards and paper
tape, storage on eight foot high vacuum tubed tape decks, an unreliable
hard disk that was never used and no such thing as a screen though you
could pause operations to view specific addresses and whether the
individual bits (valves) were on or off.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<rrA6Gu.1rIB@kithrup.com>

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From: djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
Message-ID: <rrA6Gu.1rIB@kithrup.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:22:06 GMT
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 by: Dorothy J Heydt - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:22 UTC

In article <tuaq02$12eea$1@dont-email.me>, BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> From
>https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>
>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
>programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
>
>My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
>had to give to the guy behind the counter.

(Hal Heydt)
Heh... My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN *and*
ALGOL. In nine weeks.

>When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
>using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
>had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
>The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
>damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!

So long as it is adequately commented, I have no problem with a
computed goto. Nor with a COBOL "GOTO ... DEPENDING ON ...".

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<73aacc6b-5a03-487e-911f-0e6cf7707f63n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 05:56 UTC

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 8:56:13 PM UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> >>> On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> >>>> From
> >>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
> >>>>
> >>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
> >>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
> >>>> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
> >>>
> >>> My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
> >>> had to give to the guy behind the counter.
> >>>
> >>> When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
> >>> using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
> >>> had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess..
> >>> The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
> >>> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
> >> I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
> >> calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
> >> lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
> >> compiler has added support for them.
> >>
> >> https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables
> >>
> >> As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
> >> gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
> >> support them.
> >
> > Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
> > emulate computed gotos.
> >
> > Pt
> That is just ... wrong.
>
> Lynn
I have heard of self-modifying code being used on a large machine - I think IBM 360 - for performance, because of the time taken for indexed versions of instructions - or perhaps paucity of index modes - I can't remember much about the 360 instruction set now.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<csHOL.289809$Ldj8.240060@fx47.iad>

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:49 UTC

Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>On 2023-03-09, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>>>> emulate computed gotos.
>>>>
>>>> Pt
>>>
>>>That is just ... wrong.
>>
>> Perfectly normal for small memory systems of that era.
>>
>> The Burroughs B300 had 3-operand instructions, but not all
>> instructions used all three operands. The programmer was
>> encouraged to use the unused (and ignored by the
>> CPU) operands for utility and/or constant storage.
>
>"Encouraged" seems a bit strong, but definitely "allowed to when

In this case, encouraged is the proper term. The Burroughs
documentation itself suggested it.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

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 by: Scott Lurndal - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:52 UTC

Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
>On 10/03/23 11:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>>>> emulate computed gotos.
>>>>
>>>> Pt
>>>
>>> That is just ... wrong.
>>
>> Perfectly normal for small memory systems of that era.
>>
>> The Burroughs B300 had 3-operand instructions, but not all
>> instructions used all three operands. The programmer was
>> encouraged to use the unused (and ignored by the
>> CPU) operands for utility and/or constant storage.
>
>That was fun but necessary because of limited memory mainly taken up by
>the loaded program. I don't remember the Burroughs model my bureau
>employers had but it was about 1970, input from punched cards and paper
>tape, storage on eight foot high vacuum tubed tape decks, an unreliable
>hard disk that was never used and no such thing as a screen though you
>could pause operations to view specific addresses and whether the
>individual bits (valves) were on or off.

That would have been a system designed/built before 1965, since all the Burroughs
systems thereafter were solid state (transistor first, then custom
SSI logic (BCML) followed by TTL, followed by ECL) rather than vacuum tube/valve.

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<a890e529-f572-4dee-8756-febfa0d96b6fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
From: petert...@gmail.com (pete...@gmail.com)
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 by: pete...@gmail.com - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:36 UTC

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 12:56:18 AM UTC-5, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 8:56:13 PM UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >> On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
> > >>> On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> > >>>> From
> > >>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
> > >>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
> > >>>> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
> > >>>
> > >>> My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
> > >>> had to give to the guy behind the counter.
> > >>>
> > >>> When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
> > >>> using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
> > >>> had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
> > >>> The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers.. The
> > >>> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
> > >> I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
> > >> calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
> > >> lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
> > >> compiler has added support for them.
> > >>
> > >> https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables
> > >>
> > >> As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
> > >> gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
> > >> support them.
> > >
> > > Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
> > > emulate computed gotos.
> > >
> > > Pt
> > That is just ... wrong.
> >
> > Lynn
> I have heard of self-modifying code being used on a large machine - I think IBM 360 - for performance, because of the time taken for indexed versions of instructions - or perhaps paucity of index modes - I can't remember much about the 360 instruction set now.

Yeah, I also used to make extended versions of indexed instructions, where the table extended
longer than the index could reach.

Pt

Re: OT - The old ones built it....

<hmom0i1im7o525gs51heujhdgog06827cd@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: OT - The old ones built it....
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 by: Paul S Person - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:03 UTC

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 14:56:06 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 3/8/2023 11:42 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:34:29?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2023 2:08 PM, BCFD36 wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/23 23:04, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>>>>> From
>>>>> https://www.navylookout.com/snapshot-the-royal-navy-escort-fleet-in-march-2023/
>>>>>
>>>>> Supporting them in service requires all kinds of workarounds, for
>>>>> example, the engine management software runs Fortran – an ancient
>>>>> programming language with very few engineers left who understand it.
>>>>
>>>> My first programming class at Cal was FORTRAN, using punched cards we
>>>> had to give to the guy behind the counter.
>>>>
>>>> When I left Lockheed in 2014, the AEHF program (and others) was still
>>>> using a simulator written in FORTRAN. I did some brief work on it. It
>>>> had been around for many, many years at that time. It was also a mess.
>>>> The guys who wrote it and maintained it were not software engineers. The
>>>> damn thing still had "computed goto" statements in it!!!
>>> I have many computed goto statements in my chemical process simulation
>>> calculation engine that is written in 740,000 lines of F77 and 50,000
>>> lines of C/C++. Computed gotos are so useful that the GCC C/C++
>>> compiler has added support for them.
>>>
>>> https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/12/computed-goto-for-efficient-dispatch-tables
>>>
>>> As I am slowly converting my calculation engine to C++, the computed
>>> gotos are being converted to huge switches since generic C/C++ does not
>>> support them.
>>
>> Back when I was writing 6502 assembler, I used self modifying code to effectively
>> emulate computed gotos.
>>
>> Pt
>
>That is just ... wrong.

I leave the morality of it to you, but it is certainly ill-advised.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor