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arts / rec.arts.sf.written / Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

SubjectAuthor
* (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysJames Nicoll
+* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in MysteriousLynn McGuire
|+* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysRobert Carnegie
||`* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysWolfFan
|| `* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysRobert Carnegie
||  `* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysWolfFan
||   `* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysRobert Carnegie
||    +- Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysAndrew McDowell
||    `- Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in MysteriousDimensional Traveler
|`* Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysteriousa425couple
| `- Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysteriousted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
`- Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious WaysTony Nance

1
(tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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From: jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
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Subject: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:15:05 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Nicoll - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:15 UTC

Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
interventionist gods.

https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-mysterious-ways/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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From: lynnmcgu...@gmail.com (Lynn McGuire)
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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious
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 by: Lynn McGuire - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:04 UTC

On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
>
> What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> interventionist gods.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-mysterious-ways/

Wait, where is the fifth book ?

So, the fifth book could be "The God Engines" by John Scalzi. Or, "Dies
The Fire" by S. M. Stirling. Or, "Spanish Mission (Hope Blackwell)" by
K.B. Spangler (if Coyote is a God).

https://www.amazon.com/God-Engines-John-Scalzi/dp/1596062991/
and
https://www.amazon.com/Dies-Fire-S-M-Stirling/dp/0451460413/
and
https://www.amazon.com/Spanish-Mission-Hope-Blackwell-2/dp/0998431753/

Lynn

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
From: tonynanc...@gmail.com (Tony Nance)
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 by: Tony Nance - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:13 UTC

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:15:09 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
>
> What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> interventionist gods.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-mysterious-ways/
>

Interesting examples, thanks - I've only read the Stewart.
Several other examples come to mind, and many of them
are mentioned in the comments after your essay. A few
that aren't include
- Erikson's Malazan books
- a few Zelazny like Amber, Creatures of Light and Darkness, one of the
Francis Sandow stories maybe? (and not Lord of Light)
- I'd put Donaldson's Lord Foul in there, too

Tony

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:59 UTC

On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> >
> > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > interventionist gods.
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-mysterious-ways/
> Wait, where is the fifth book ?

Ineffable.

No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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 by: WolfFan - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:23 UTC

On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
(in article<21b29998-aead-4356-93cb-4055fc7ebc9fn@googlegroups.com>):

> On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> > >
> > > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > > interventionist gods.
> > >
> > > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-myst
> > > erious-ways/
> > Wait, where is the fifth book ?
>
> Ineffable.
>
> No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
> unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
> being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.

So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the Orange-u-tan
is a god?

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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 by: a425couple - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:45 UTC

On 3/9/23 13:04, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
>>
>> What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
>> or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
>> interventionist gods.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-mysterious-ways/
>
> Wait, where is the fifth book ?
>
> So, the fifth book could be "The God Engines" by John Scalzi.  Or, "Dies
> The Fire" by S. M. Stirling.  Or, "Spanish Mission (Hope Blackwell)" by
> K.B. Spangler (if Coyote is a God).
>
>    https://www.amazon.com/God-Engines-John-Scalzi/dp/1596062991/
> and
>    https://www.amazon.com/Dies-Fire-S-M-Stirling/dp/0451460413/
> and
>    https://www.amazon.com/Spanish-Mission-Hope-Blackwell-2/dp/0998431753/
> Lynn
>

Or, I'd suggest another that fits the specs.

"Between the Rivers" by Harry Turtledove.

https://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206

one review that greatly liked it:
LucMee
5.0 out of 5 stars A perennial favorite.
Reviewed in the United States 🇺🇸 on January 15, 2018
Verified Purchase
This is without doubt one of Turtledove's finest works. Year after year,
re-read after reread...this book delivers fantastic insights as to man's
separation from the gods. Just how dangerous and cunning a creature man
is. And just how foolish the gods were to assume that they could control
such a creature. How I wish that the author would write a sequel!
3 people found this helpful

another
A significant departure for Turtledove, but not one he hasn't taken
before. Here we deal with Mesopotamian city states who each have their
own god - a god who takes a very active part in his cities affairs. I
don't want to give any spoilers, but if you like Turtledove and you like
fantasy fiction, you'll love this book. I read it 20-ish years ago and
am buying it again. That good.
3 people found this helpful

another (perhaps a bit of incest to help a fellow author?!)
S. M Stirling
5.0 out of 5 stars Turtledove does it again!
Reviewed in the United States 🇺🇸 on March 8, 1998
Verified Purchase
Harry Turtledove's work has certain characteristic strengths -- solid
characterization, realistic motivations, good description, and
fast-paced action. BETWEEN THE RIVERS adds a witty, intriguing look at
the Bronze Age... in a world much like ancient Sumeria, but one where
the gods are very real. Turtledove's extrapolations from this idea are
solid, down-to-earth and a mixture of the hilarious and the horrific.
For as one character says, to be a god you don't have to be very smart
-- just very _strong_. His hero's adventures in a world where humans are
still -- literally -- as insects beneath the feet of a very solidly
realized pantheon are a treat for any reader of SF, fantasy or
historical fiction. Highly recommended!
7 people found this helpful
Helpful

a valid sentence
The whole story is original and well thought it. The type of "speech"
the characters use can be confusing sometimes, but it does add to the
value and setting of the narrative. Highly recommended.

Personally, I found the use of very strange names and words very
discomforting.

here is the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_Rivers

"Plot introduction
In the novel, the cities and regions are each ruled by their own gods.
In the city of Gibil, however; the god Engibil has gotten lazy and does
not monitor his city. As such the inhabitants have developed technology
such as writing and smelting, and have started to lose respect for
Engibil and his power. The other gods have gotten angry at Gibil for
reasons they keep to themselves, and have started to refuse to trade
with Gibil. It becomes the task of the main character, Sharur, a
merchant, to travel the land and find out why the gods are angry and try
to solve the problem."

and here is the goodreads
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/101600

349 readers rated it at a 3.60 average

Here is one that had thoughts similar to mine:

Gregory Mele
SUCH A DISAPPOINTMENT
So Turtledove is a good writer, who excels at parallel/alternate
history. This is a world based on ancient Sumeria (check), has actual
gods controlling their city-states, more or less as Mesopotamians
imagined them (check), a magic system based on the historical data
(check), and a charming use of ancestor spirits, disease as demonic
infection, etc.

And then it all goes to hell.
Turtledove makes a terrible decision to try and mimic the speech
patterns of Sumerian/Babylonian lit, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The
end result is stilted, dull and means that your 400 page novel is at
least 50 pages shorter, just filled with repetition like this:

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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 by: ted@loft.tnolan.com - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:59 UTC

In article <21KOL.127772$eRZ7.83405@fx06.iad>,
a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Or, I'd suggest another that fits the specs.
>
>"Between the Rivers" by Harry Turtledove.
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206
>
>one review that greatly liked it:
>LucMee
>5.0 out of 5 stars A perennial favorite.
>Reviewed in the United States 🇺🇸 on January 15, 2018
>Verified Purchase
>This is without doubt one of Turtledove's finest works. Year after year,
>re-read after reread...this book delivers fantastic insights as to man's
>separation from the gods. Just how dangerous and cunning a creature man
>is. And just how foolish the gods were to assume that they could control
>such a creature. How I wish that the author would write a sequel!
>3 people found this helpful
>

As I recall it, this was Turtledove's second take (the frist being in
a series of shorts in "Analog") on _The Origin of Consciousness in the
Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_. This time, however, the gods providing
the voices were real.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Fri, 10 Mar 2023 23:59 UTC

On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 16:24:05 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> (in article<21b29998-aead-4356...@googlegroups.com>):
> > On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> > > >
> > > > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > > > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > > > interventionist gods.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-myst
> > > > erious-ways/
> > > Wait, where is the fifth book ?
> >
> > Ineffable.
> >
> > No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
> > unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
> > being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.
>
> So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the Orange-u-tan
> is a god?

I think there's more to it, and, who?

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
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 by: WolfFan - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 01:06 UTC

On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
(in article<e7534922-7453-4512-a601-cce010535809n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 16:24:05 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> > (in article<21b29998-aead-4356...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> > > > >
> > > > > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > > > > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > > > > interventionist gods.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-my
> > > > > st
> > > > > erious-ways/
> > > > Wait, where is the fifth book ?
> > >
> > > Ineffable.
> > >
> > > No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
> > > unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
> > > being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.
> >
> > So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the
> > Orange-u-tan
> > is a god?
>
> I think there's more to it, and, who?

Vlad the Invader; people fear him, but don’t worship him.

The Former Guy: people worship him. Still.

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
From: rja.carn...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie)
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 by: Robert Carnegie - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:39 UTC

On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 01:07:11 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> (in article<e7534922-7453-4512...@googlegroups.com>):
> > On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 16:24:05 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> > > On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> > > (in article<21b29998-aead-4356...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > > On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > > On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > > > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > > > > > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > > > > > interventionist gods.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-my
> > > > > > st
> > > > > > erious-ways/
> > > > > Wait, where is the fifth book ?
> > > >
> > > > Ineffable.
> > > >
> > > > No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
> > > > unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
> > > > being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.
> > >
> > > So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the
> > > Orange-u-tan
> > > is a god?
> >
> > I think there's more to it, and, who?
> Vlad the Invader; people fear him, but don’t worship him.
>
> The Former Guy: people worship him. Still.

Vladimir Putin has had the word "miracle" attached to him
by people who should know better. Apparently he himself
said that his Crimea bridge was a miracle. Then someone
blew it to bits. It's been repaired, but that doesn't seem to be
a miracle.

Donald Trump has claimed to possess powers reasonably
attributed to a god. Amongst his miracles are the
disappearance of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the hydroxychloroquine,
the bleach, and being seen driven around town in his car when
he was known to be in hospital struggling to breathe. Of course
these are not enough miracles for him to be a god, especially as
most of them didn't happen.

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
From: mcdowell...@sky.com (Andrew McDowell)
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 by: Andrew McDowell - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:36 UTC

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 7:39:41 PM UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 01:07:11 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> > (in article<e7534922-7453-4512...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 16:24:05 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
> > > > On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
> > > > (in article<21b29998-aead-4356...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > > > On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > > > On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > > > > > Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
> > > > > > > or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
> > > > > > > interventionist gods.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-my
> > > > > > > st
> > > > > > > erious-ways/
> > > > > > Wait, where is the fifth book ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ineffable.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
> > > > > unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
> > > > > being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.
> > > >
> > > > So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the
> > > > Orange-u-tan
> > > > is a god?
> > >
> > > I think there's more to it, and, who?
> > Vlad the Invader; people fear him, but don’t worship him.
> >
> > The Former Guy: people worship him. Still.
> Vladimir Putin has had the word "miracle" attached to him
> by people who should know better. Apparently he himself
> said that his Crimea bridge was a miracle. Then someone
> blew it to bits. It's been repaired, but that doesn't seem to be
> a miracle.
>
> Donald Trump has claimed to possess powers reasonably
> attributed to a god. Amongst his miracles are the
> disappearance of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the hydroxychloroquine,
> the bleach, and being seen driven around town in his car when
> he was known to be in hospital struggling to breathe. Of course
> these are not enough miracles for him to be a god, especially as
> most of them didn't happen.
I would be pretty surprised if it originated with Trump himself, but enough people took to referring to him as "God-Emperor" that the acronym GEOTUS (as opposted to POTUS) was sometimes used. As far as I can remember, God-Emperors have been distinguished more by the ability to give commands to legions than their personal miracles, but perhaps the account of Trump personally wresting the wheel of the presidential limousine from the Secret Service was in fact true, and was due to a miracle, rather than impausibly long and powerful arms. I mean, since when has POTUS ridden side by side with the driver of "The Beast"?

Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways

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Subject: Re: (tor dot com) Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious
Ways
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Sat, 11 Mar 2023 20:46 UTC

On 3/11/2023 11:39 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 01:07:11 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
>> On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
>> (in article<e7534922-7453-4512...@googlegroups.com>):
>>> On Friday, 10 March 2023 at 16:24:05 UTC, WolfFan wrote:
>>>> On Mar 10, 2023, Robert Carnegie wrote
>>>> (in article<21b29998-aead-4356...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>> On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 21:04:46 UTC, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2023 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> Four Books About Living Gods Working in Mysterious Ways
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What it says on the tin, with the added twist that I read this more
>>>>>>> or less one after the other, without setting out to read books about
>>>>>>> interventionist gods.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.tor.com/2023/03/08/four-books-about-living-gods-working-in-my
>>>>>>> st
>>>>>>> erious-ways/
>>>>>> Wait, where is the fifth book ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ineffable.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, not really. I say the word "god" doesn't apply
>>>>> unless people /know/ you're a god. If you aren't
>>>>> being worshipped then you are just a celebrity.
>>>>
>>>> So... does that mean that Pony-Boy Puta is a celebrity while the
>>>> Orange-u-tan
>>>> is a god?
>>>
>>> I think there's more to it, and, who?
>> Vlad the Invader; people fear him, but don’t worship him.
>>
>> The Former Guy: people worship him. Still.
>
> Vladimir Putin has had the word "miracle" attached to him
> by people who should know better. Apparently he himself
> said that his Crimea bridge was a miracle. Then someone
> blew it to bits. It's been repaired, but that doesn't seem to be
> a miracle.
>
> Donald Trump has claimed to possess powers reasonably
> attributed to a god. Amongst his miracles are the
> disappearance of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the hydroxychloroquine,
> the bleach, and being seen driven around town in his car when
> he was known to be in hospital struggling to breathe. Of course
> these are not enough miracles for him to be a god, especially as
> most of them didn't happen.

Those are the best kind of miracles because they can't be disproved!

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

1
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